Can China made produce a good blade?

[EricV]

I've owned both (sold by TiSpine) and they're hardly alike, apart from the fact that the handle machining has a vaguely similar striated pattern.

Edit: so are both the TiSpine and Kizer Sunburst knockoffs of the Wilson Combat Starbenza, then?

I said it bothers me enough to not buy from them. You have no issue with that, and thats fine with me, why can't my having an issue with it be fine by you?

This is a constant trend in this thread and a few others with people complaining about something others like/don't like, and then getting their panties in a bunch when people don't agree.

 

[Ken44]

Can China made produce a good blade?

Most poor, some fair, and a few on the low end of good.

I'm sure they could make better, but that's not their market.
When one is looking for higher end knives they don't look to China, and they know that, so no reason for them to make a really good or great knife.

 

[bld522]

Except, of course, some knives manufactured in China are REALLY well-made bordering on great. And once again, people who haven't seen one or don't own one don't know what they're talking about.

Makers with names like Cucchiara and Laconico and Begg have reputations to protect. Do you really think they'd turn their production knife manufacturing over to folks who can't provide the materials and workmanship they demand?

 

[Boats]

We need to stay on topic. China is not on trial here, otherwise I can go on my soap box as well regarding moral, and political reasons to when you can, purchase non China products.

Looking at my collection, I own ONE China knife right now, a Tenacious. I'm eyeing a Ti Byrd CaraCara. The rest of my budget blades are from Taiwan at this time. No high end Chinese, not really interested though I have raised several eyebrows looking at pics and feedback. My purchase history in a way shows what my actual position is.

We can't be ignorant to things and it is best to know our "enemies" well. I went to Shanghai and HK the past five years and was looking around in awe at how advanced these cities were. Skyscrapers and all. A far cry from the stereotypical American impression of rice villages full of people with funny hats (sure they still have those). Point is, it is dangerous for us, our companies, and our government to not TRY to understand them. This acting like they are incapable is a SERIOUS miscalculation.

I don't believe anyone has been disparaging the Chinese people in this thread. How could I or any other PRC detractor own knives from Taiwan if ethnic Chinese folks and racist stereotypes about them were the core of the criticism?

I have been to Taiwan, Hong Kong, and PRC. I have also been to Singapore, where ethnic Chinese people essentially have run things since independence. One of these places is not like the others despite their commonalities. The people aren't what seperates them. It's a business culture of dishonesty, and a pervasive sense shortcuts being taken in China whenever not under a hawk like stare, that plagues the mass western perception of PRC manufacturing. What's particularly sad is that it didn't have to be this way.

Certainly anyone who has been around long enough knows the folly of saying "Made in ______ means junk!" It doesn't usually last if the country in question makes strides. Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Korea among others were repeatedly slapped with the junk meme and have mostly overcome it.

Then again, as regards knives, so too was Pakistan. And it stuck. I know of no one credible who speaks well of Pakistani cutlery. Too much of PRC manufacture is embroiled in a general sense of low quality because of so many horror stories coming out of an entire array of factories making all manner of products. Fairly or not, PRC's atmosphere of corruption and graft colors the view of all enterprises there, just as there might be some obscure Pakistani making knives to die for who will be eternally eclipsed by his countrymen who are contented with ripping off whomever they can.

It takes decades to get out from under a country's generally poor reputation for quality. For the PRC world class manufacturer sitting atop the pile of crap producers their countrymen are it's like being the cream of a rotten jug of raw milk.

 

[Stays Sharp]

^
I've addressed exactly all of this in this multi page thread and sadly, I am not in the mood to go around in circles.

It's alright as long as my point is clear that they are capable. That's what the topic is about.

 

[B34NS]

I don't believe anyone has been disparaging the Chinese people in this thread. How could I or any other PRC detractor own knives from Taiwan if ethnic Chinese folks and racist stereotypes about them were the core of the criticism?

I have been to Taiwan, Hong Kong, and PRC. I have also been to Singapore, where ethnic Chinese people essentially have run things since independence. One of these places is not like the others despite their commonalities. The people aren't what seperates them. It's a business culture of dishonesty, and a pervasive sense shortcuts being taken in China whenever not under a hawk like stare, that plagues the mass western perception of PRC manufacturing. What's particularly sad is that it didn't have to be this way.

Certainly anyone who has been around long enough knows the folly of saying "Made in ______ means junk!" It doesn't usually last if the country in question makes strides. Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Korea among others were repeatedly slapped with the junk meme and have mostly overcome it.

Then again, as regards knives, so too was Pakistan. And it stuck. I know of no one credible who speaks well of Pakistani cutlery. Too much of PRC manufacture is embroiled in a general sense of low quality because of so many horror stories coming out of an entire array of factories making all manner of products. Fairly or not, PRC's atmosphere of corruption and graft colors the view of all enterprises there, just as there might be some obscure Pakistani making knives to die for who will be eternally eclipsed by his countrymen who are contented with ripping off whomever they can.

It takes decades to get out from under a country's generally poor reputation for quality. For the PRC world class manufacturer sitting atop the pile of crap producers their countrymen are it's like being the cream of a rotten jug of raw milk.

Incredibly well said. :thumbup: Having been there myself and enjoyed a few museums showcasing some of the finest blade craft our species has ever devised, this is mostly a red herring. If the OP had bothered to distinguish between the artisan craftsmen and the industrialiazed production for the west, this would have been a much more interesting discussion. I hope OP understands that manufacturing and artisan craft aren't even in the same atmosphere, many developed countries enjoy having both.

 

[bld522]

I've addressed exactly all of this in this multi page thread and sadly, I am not in the mood to go around in circles.

Yep. My signature says it all . . . well, that and the Purple One's classic post. :thumbup:

 

[bld522]

Incredibly well said. :thumbup: Having been there myself and enjoyed a few museums showcasing some of the finest blade craft our species has ever devised, this is mostly a red herring. If the OP had bothered to distinguish between the artisan craftsmen and the industrialiazed production for the west, this would have been a much more interesting discussion. I hope OP understands that manufacturing and artisan craft aren't even in the same atmosphere, many developed countries enjoy having both.

I think the point that's being missed is that the capability and the infrastructure exists for SOME Chinese manufacturers to produce world-class knives. But as can be seen throughout this thread, there's just no room for that possibility in some people's world view. That's their shortsightedness . . . one that I don't happen to suffer from.

 

[FW JSB]

That's your decision, of course. But it doesn't have anything to do with the quality of the knives. Quality along with cost are what matter most to me. YMMV.

But it does speak to an issue I haven't seen mentioned yet, the ethics of doing business with a county known for unethical business practices and other more serious issues that can't be mentioned here. I don't care if they make the best bloody knives in the world, I choose not to do business with them.

Can they make good knives? I've seen some Spyderco's that seemed to be well made and you all have mentioned others. My response is, "So what?" Plenty of good options out there.

 

[HoosierQ]

Of course they are. I assume even Pakistan is actually capable of producing a decent knife! I mean people in Pakistan have to cut up goats or whatever the hell they eat over there and those who do so for a living, would need a good knife. Of course, they may be buying German or Japanese products. Given that both China and Pakistan have very long metalurgy traditions (Pakistan from when it was part of India), you should be able to expect good quality steel to come from there. No, the problems with the knives from these countries are economic problems rather than a lack of skill.

 

[bld522]

But it does speak to an issue I haven't seen mentioned yet, the ethics of doing business with a county known for unethical business practices and other more serious issues that can't be mentioned here. I don't care if they make the best bloody knives in the world, I choose not to do business with them.

Can they make good knives? I've seen some Spyderco's that seemed to be well made and you all have mentioned others. My response is, "So what?" Plenty of good options out there.

I can accept that as long as you can accept that your feelings in the matter have absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the knives. The knives either stand or fall on their own merits. Can you handle that? If you can, I have no argument with your decision NOT to buy them any more than you should have an argument with my decision TO buy them.

 

[Stays Sharp]

Incredibly well said. :thumbup: Having been there myself and enjoyed a few museums showcasing some of the finest blade craft our species has ever devised, this is mostly a red herring. If the OP had bothered to distinguish between the artisan craftsmen and the industrialiazed production for the west, this would have been a much more interesting discussion. I hope OP understands that manufacturing and artisan craft aren't even in the same atmosphere, many developed countries enjoy having both.

Ahh museums. What did you see? Can you buy them? Are they readily available outside of China? What's the market for this artisan craft of museum pieces? Are these folders? Or long swords, broadswords...Yeah maybe OP should have been more clear. I think China is over bladecraft and they are enjoying developing modern weapons. They have a long museum history with gunpowder as well BTW Im sure you know.

If you are talking about ancient dynastic China, that's def not the discussion here but indeed, it is an irony what people say about their blades here if you consider what they have accomplished in the past. Then again, it's two different planets of discussion.

 

[Stays Sharp]

I think the point that's being missed is that the capability and the infrastructure exists for SOME Chinese manufacturers to produce world-class knives. But as can be seen throughout this thread, there's just no room for that possibility in some people's world view. That's their shortsightedness . . . one that I don't happen to suffer from.

That's what my posts are targeted towards. I don't really care about these red herring mentioning whatever the hells.

 

[bld522]

It's OK. This is a VERY touchy subject and there are lots of good reasons APART FROM THE KNIVES THEMSELVES for why some people feel the way they do. Honest to God, I get it! I'm just simply trying to parse out the FEELINGS from the FACTS. And boy is that ever an uphill battle.

 

[Boats]

I think the point that's being missed is that the capability and the infrastructure exist for SOME Chinese manufacturers to produce world-class knives. But as can be seen throughout this thread, there's just no room for that possibility in some people's world view. That's their shortsightedness . . . one that I don't happen to suffer from.

You merely suffer from a different vision disturbance.

No matter the capability, lots of buyers don't trust they will get what is claimed from some company from a country with, let's be polite, and say a "wildly uneven" manufacturing reputation generally. Companies with no tangible domestic presence for service and which are next to untouchable as regards regular consumer protections aren't trusted much either.

Gerber's slipshod Chinese sourced blades can be recalled or barred en masse if necessary because both Gerber and Fiskars can be hammered here by regulators. If Reate cocks up a design or build, and harms end users with a faulty product, an import ban is really the only effective punitive measure, which pays no ones bill for stitches.

If for having a blinkered focus on the amount of cash saved you can't see the totality of circumstances that other may use in the decision to make a purchase, no amount of pointing these things out is going to get you to look outside of your billfold.

 

[bld522]

You merely suffer from a different vision disturbance.

No matter the capability, lots of buyers don't trust they will get what is claimed from some company from a country with, let's be polite, and say a "wildly uneven" manufacturing reputation generally. Companies with no tangible domestic presence for service and which are next to untouchable as regards regular consumer protections aren't trusted much either.

Which is why I keep coming back to makers like Cucchiara, Laconico, Begg and others. Do you really believe they'd be willing to stake their reputations on "wildly uneven" manufacturing and companies that won't stand behind their products? Think man. Think!

 

[Boats]

It's OK. This is a VERY touchy subject and there are lots of good reasons APART FROM THE KNIVES THEMSELVES for why some people feel the way they do. Honest to God, I get it! I'm just simply trying to parse out the FEELINGS from the FACTS. And boy is that ever an uphill battle.

PRC knife makers ripping off PATENTED designs and design elements are facts.
The PRC being a leading source of wholly counterfeited knives is a fact.
Trying to slip non spec steel past Byrd/Spyderco was a fact.
Buck not getting what they paid for was a fact that ended most of their offshoring effort in the PRC.

People weight different facts differently.

 

[Boats]

Which is why I keep coming back to makers like Cucchiara, Laconico, Begg and others. Do you really believe they'd be willing to stake their reputations on "wildly uneven" manufacturing and companies that won't stand behind their products? Think man. Think!

Lol. A basic appeal to authority? Buck did a collaboration with Strider. Who's reputation took a hit in that marriage? Begg et al are gambling and hoping, not knowing, it will go their way reputationally.

 

[Stays Sharp]

No matter the capability, lots of buyers don't trust they will get what is claimed from some company from a country with, let's be polite, and say a "wildly uneven" manufacturing reputation generally. Companies with no tangible domestic presence for service and which are next to untouchable as regards regular consumer protections aren't trusted much either.

I'm not here to sway the trust factor, that's not my fight here but define "lots" of buyers. From what I see, "lots" of buyers can care less where a product is made and fill their houses up with up to 100% China made from appliances to shoes. That's some strong MIStrust there on where they place there money and how they vote with their wallets. For every outspoken "buy USA only blades" guy out there, there seems to be more people who continue to make knives like the Tenacious a bestseller.

Gerber's slipshod Chinese sourced blades can be recalled or barred en masse if necessary because both Gerber and Fiskars can be hammered here by regulators. If Reate cocks up a design or build, and harms end users with a faulty product, an import ban is really the only effective punitive measure, which pays no ones bill for stitches.

I think you are spot on here BTW

If for having a blinkered focus on the amount of cash saved you can't see the totality of circumstances that other may use in the decision to make a purchase, no amount of pointing these things out is going to get you to look outside of your billfold.

That's the scary thing on what bld has been harping on. It's becoming that (in his case and to some others) it isn't merely to save money anymore and more like a competitive option. No matter the mistrust, hate... It is there, and a quick visit to that subforum or Reate thread here shows that there are people who really think of these highly.

 

[bld522]

PRC knife makers ripping off PATENTED designs and design elements are facts.
The PRC being a leading source of wholly counterfeited knives is a fact.
Trying to slip non spec steel past Byrd/Spyderco was a fact.
Buck not getting what they paid for was a fact that ended most of their offshoring effort in the PRC.

People weight different facts differently.

Any of those people named Kizer? Any of those people named Reate? You wouldn't be trying to establish guilt by association, would you?