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Caveat Emptor zakjak221
- Thread starter Hoka
- Start date
Peter Hartwig
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2008
- Messages
- 5,666
While I think this is a great policy IMO , since it isn't until the buyer receives the item that he can fully determine any discrepancies in the description(and of course seller happy with payment) , It is not actually a rule on this forum. They do have rules about properly describing the item.
OP, member 1 month; 3 count 'em, 3 posts; all about this knife. zak, member 6 years, 100% feedback :thumbup:. Forget him, zak; yeah, you could refund him to keep the peace but NAH. :grumpy:
That's not the right answer. How many "old" members here who had excellent feedback have suddenly gone off the reservation and scammed the shit out of somebody? Lots. The fact that they've been around the forum for years and have excellent feedback doesn't change the fact that they scammed someone or made a bad deal.
OP needs to post a picture of the rust, IMO. But you can see the red stain on the handle scales about 1/4 of the way down if you look carefully.
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2003
- Messages
- 7,159
Its an integrity and character thing folks
IF buyer isnt happy
It is true. Old member. Or new member
Money should be refunded
Merely my veiw as a longtime member
If description of item sold was NOT FULLY disclosed
Funds should be given back
No questions. Item returned. Everyone moves on..
Integrity
Character
Trustworthiness
Are 3 huge variables that
Play a role on the buyer and sellers behalf
Doing the right thing seems to be a big variable
In this deal...
IF buyer isnt happy
It is true. Old member. Or new member
Money should be refunded
Merely my veiw as a longtime member
If description of item sold was NOT FULLY disclosed
Funds should be given back
No questions. Item returned. Everyone moves on..
Integrity
Character
Trustworthiness
Are 3 huge variables that
Play a role on the buyer and sellers behalf
Doing the right thing seems to be a big variable
In this deal...
Communication also seems to be a key here. The OP hasn't come back to this thread to answer some basic questions. Did I miss it or did he or the seller say how the item was paid for? The seller might have some language discrepancy issues because frankly he doesn't make sense and contradicts himself with double negatives. OP, you want this to stick? Post some pictures of the issue. I doubt I would have bought that knife with just that one poor picture.
Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you all for your interest in the matter and your thoughtful replies. There is no picture because as a new member, I'm not allowed to post attachments. I posted this thread simply to warn others of the possibility of this kind of experience with this seller as that is what I believe Feedback is good for. I have no buyers remorse. If Mark had agreed to refund my money or credit me to have the issues corrected by Busse as requested, I'd have turned around and purchased another SoB posted, even at the higher price. And though I already have another of these I purchased as a user and didn't intend two of such, perhaps I will still purchase another in collectable shape and make lemonade out of lemons with this one.
As I have said I'm my email exchange with Mark, whether it was intentionally misrepresented or not, the knife did not arrive in the condition shown in the picture, nor was any mention made of the stain on the scale. If he had shown any interest in taking responsibility for misrepresenting the knife, intentionally or not, this thread would not exist. Suggesting only that I take some steel wool to the rust and excusing the issue as "It was a good deal" leads me to the conclusion he is not someone I would purchase from again and that others should have fair warning in dealing with him. I don't think it should be a buyer's responsibility to find the questions which 'might' reveal some flaw. A knife of this size is a fairly straightforward object to evaluate in condition. If he isn't able to evaluate and illuminate the actual condition of items he's selling here, nor take responsibility for his misrepresentation, what is his elevated status as a seller worth? To me, zero.
In the future I'll limit my purchases to items listed with better photo's before making a purchase. I'll take responsibility for not asking more questions and chalk this one up to experience on this forum. For me, the matter of dealing with zakjak221 regarding the knife is closed and I'm moving forward. Thank you all for the interest and support.
As I have said I'm my email exchange with Mark, whether it was intentionally misrepresented or not, the knife did not arrive in the condition shown in the picture, nor was any mention made of the stain on the scale. If he had shown any interest in taking responsibility for misrepresenting the knife, intentionally or not, this thread would not exist. Suggesting only that I take some steel wool to the rust and excusing the issue as "It was a good deal" leads me to the conclusion he is not someone I would purchase from again and that others should have fair warning in dealing with him. I don't think it should be a buyer's responsibility to find the questions which 'might' reveal some flaw. A knife of this size is a fairly straightforward object to evaluate in condition. If he isn't able to evaluate and illuminate the actual condition of items he's selling here, nor take responsibility for his misrepresentation, what is his elevated status as a seller worth? To me, zero.
In the future I'll limit my purchases to items listed with better photo's before making a purchase. I'll take responsibility for not asking more questions and chalk this one up to experience on this forum. For me, the matter of dealing with zakjak221 regarding the knife is closed and I'm moving forward. Thank you all for the interest and support.
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2011
- Messages
- 4,931
You can easily post pictures. Upload your photos to photobucket or some other image sharing site. Copy the IMG link and paste it in this thread. That's it.
Not sure what a 'forward scale holder' is.......the scale fastener??
The way I see it, and the way I would handle it, the buyer is NOT happy. Really doesn't matter why, unless it's buyer's remorse.......which I'm not seeing....I would issue a refund and take the knife back.
My integrity is worth much more than this deal.
Just my opinion.
Joe
The way I see it, and the way I would handle it, the buyer is NOT happy. Really doesn't matter why, unless it's buyer's remorse.......which I'm not seeing....I would issue a refund and take the knife back.
My integrity is worth much more than this deal.
Just my opinion.
Joe
doesnt busse have a no questions we do anything you ask type super warranty? i always heard they have the best warranty and service in the business. not sure if i am right on that part or if these issues would be not covered, but worth an ask.....
they say no, it's no, maybe have them repair the issues and the seller and buyer can work out a deal on who pays what......just a thought.
they say no, it's no, maybe have them repair the issues and the seller and buyer can work out a deal on who pays what......just a thought.
To everyone telling Hoka to post pictures and asking what type of payment method he used, etc - I think it's pretty clear, he didn't come on here with the intention of trying to get a refund. He simply wanted to let us know, and to beware when dealing with the seller. For which, I appreciate. He's probably unfamiliar with just how persuasive our community can be when it comes to helping out on a sour deal.
Hoka - If you want to return the knife, or would like our help in trying to convince the seller to do the right thing - Post some pictures (Or email them to a member and they can post them for you) - And give some more details about the type of payment you used. Paypal goods and service, Paypal Gift, Postal Money Order etc.
Hoka - If you want to return the knife, or would like our help in trying to convince the seller to do the right thing - Post some pictures (Or email them to a member and they can post them for you) - And give some more details about the type of payment you used. Paypal goods and service, Paypal Gift, Postal Money Order etc.
killgar
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2002
- Messages
- 7,501
A few members of this forum have asked me to sell some of my knives, and contemplating that possibility, and whether or not to buy the proper membership and sell them here, I take an interest in situations such as this. Here are my thoughts and questions, I'd be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts and answers-
While the OP may not be here seeking a refund, he has publicly questioned the sellers honesty and ethics by calling him "unscrupulous". I think that's a very serious charge. But he hasn't provided any proof to back it up.
It seems to me that the same thing could happen to anybody. You sell a knife, buyer starts a thread calling you "unscrupulous", but offers NO proof. I would think that such behavior would be heavily frowned upon here. Shouldn't the policy be- if you don't offer proof of wrongdoing, you shouldn't start a thread questioning the honesty and integrity of someone else.
People are saying that a refund should have been given. And it seems like some believe that a refund should be provided to any buyer if that buyer is unhappy for ANY reason. But if you believe that a refund should be provided upon request, who should pay the return shipping and insurance on the knife? If the seller did nothing wrong, if the buyer is being nit-picky or didn't ask questions and ask for photos prior to purchase, then should the seller have to pay? Again, this could happen to anyone.
And as a seller, do you place a time limit on issuing refunds? What if a week after receiving the knife the buyer says they found a flaw and want a refund? What if you the seller has already spent the money? If the buyer starts a thread publicly questioning your integrity because you won't issue a refund a week (or more) after delivery, will the jury here determine that you are unscrupulous in your practices and recommend that people not buy from you? And again, it seems to me that any seller could find themselves in such a situation.
It appears to me that there are "posted rules" for selling on this forum, and starting threads in the GB&U, and then there are "personal policies" created by the members themselves. And while those "policies" are often shared by others, and although they are not "the rules", it appears that peoples reputations are publicly judged by those "personal policies".
In any event, wherever I might decide to sell knives, if I do, I will create my own very detailed return/refund policy.
As for this thread, the discoloration on the handle is obvious to me, I would have asked about it before saying "I'll take it". But I also would have asked for more/better quality pictures. And if I didn't receive such pictures, I wouldn't buy it. If I buy something without first making a thorough inquiry of the item, then I feel that I have only myself to blame if I'm unhappy with the condition of the item, particularly if the condition issue is something I would have noticed during a thorough inquiry. I wouldn't blame my own failure on the seller and publicly call them "unscrupulous".
While the OP may not be here seeking a refund, he has publicly questioned the sellers honesty and ethics by calling him "unscrupulous". I think that's a very serious charge. But he hasn't provided any proof to back it up.
It seems to me that the same thing could happen to anybody. You sell a knife, buyer starts a thread calling you "unscrupulous", but offers NO proof. I would think that such behavior would be heavily frowned upon here. Shouldn't the policy be- if you don't offer proof of wrongdoing, you shouldn't start a thread questioning the honesty and integrity of someone else.
People are saying that a refund should have been given. And it seems like some believe that a refund should be provided to any buyer if that buyer is unhappy for ANY reason. But if you believe that a refund should be provided upon request, who should pay the return shipping and insurance on the knife? If the seller did nothing wrong, if the buyer is being nit-picky or didn't ask questions and ask for photos prior to purchase, then should the seller have to pay? Again, this could happen to anyone.
And as a seller, do you place a time limit on issuing refunds? What if a week after receiving the knife the buyer says they found a flaw and want a refund? What if you the seller has already spent the money? If the buyer starts a thread publicly questioning your integrity because you won't issue a refund a week (or more) after delivery, will the jury here determine that you are unscrupulous in your practices and recommend that people not buy from you? And again, it seems to me that any seller could find themselves in such a situation.
It appears to me that there are "posted rules" for selling on this forum, and starting threads in the GB&U, and then there are "personal policies" created by the members themselves. And while those "policies" are often shared by others, and although they are not "the rules", it appears that peoples reputations are publicly judged by those "personal policies".
In any event, wherever I might decide to sell knives, if I do, I will create my own very detailed return/refund policy.
As for this thread, the discoloration on the handle is obvious to me, I would have asked about it before saying "I'll take it". But I also would have asked for more/better quality pictures. And if I didn't receive such pictures, I wouldn't buy it. If I buy something without first making a thorough inquiry of the item, then I feel that I have only myself to blame if I'm unhappy with the condition of the item, particularly if the condition issue is something I would have noticed during a thorough inquiry. I wouldn't blame my own failure on the seller and publicly call them "unscrupulous".
Peter Hartwig
Gold Member
- Joined
- Feb 29, 2008
- Messages
- 5,666
Killgar-will try to answer some of your ?'s
I have had this type of problem a couple times in my hundreds of sales, so it doesn't come up much, but does come up.
In the cases(5 out of my couple hundred sales) I offer to pay the return shipping- I offer to make them whole. No one has ever taken me up on it, and 1/2 of those cases we have been able to settle for a monetary adjustment. I was wrong on 2 of those cases-nothing intentional, but I missed things(I can't even say how bad I feel about those-totally my fault). 2 of the other 3 amounted to dust, last one a matter of opinion. So 2 I settled for money 3 I gave a full refund.
As for time. I expect to hear fairly immediately if there is a problem, and I always have. The fly in the ointment is PP. When you take PP goods and services(as you should do) they get a say in the matter. They are going to decide in favor of a buyer that says they did not get what they were promised or didn't get the item(if the buyer files a claim). They have their own timeline for claims(not sure how many days).
If you settle with those that aren't satisfied, you don't land up in GBU threads, and you don't get PP claims against you, and you keep your reputation. I am on good terms with all that were not originally satisfied, due to addressing their concerns immediately and working until they were satisfied. The money loss is very insignificant to reputation.
Lastly I don't spend the money until they get their item and I confirm all is OK.
Most on the forum are very honest people and easy to deal with.
This is just how I have handled problems of this sort and while certainly within the rules are not the rules.
as to the OP-he should show the evidence to his claim for this thread , showing that would prove that all was not divulged in the sales thread, which is a rules breach.
He also has never explained why he did not just file a PP claim if the seller wasn't willing to address this.
I have had this type of problem a couple times in my hundreds of sales, so it doesn't come up much, but does come up.
In the cases(5 out of my couple hundred sales) I offer to pay the return shipping- I offer to make them whole. No one has ever taken me up on it, and 1/2 of those cases we have been able to settle for a monetary adjustment. I was wrong on 2 of those cases-nothing intentional, but I missed things(I can't even say how bad I feel about those-totally my fault). 2 of the other 3 amounted to dust, last one a matter of opinion. So 2 I settled for money 3 I gave a full refund.
As for time. I expect to hear fairly immediately if there is a problem, and I always have. The fly in the ointment is PP. When you take PP goods and services(as you should do) they get a say in the matter. They are going to decide in favor of a buyer that says they did not get what they were promised or didn't get the item(if the buyer files a claim). They have their own timeline for claims(not sure how many days).
If you settle with those that aren't satisfied, you don't land up in GBU threads, and you don't get PP claims against you, and you keep your reputation. I am on good terms with all that were not originally satisfied, due to addressing their concerns immediately and working until they were satisfied. The money loss is very insignificant to reputation.
Lastly I don't spend the money until they get their item and I confirm all is OK.
Most on the forum are very honest people and easy to deal with.
This is just how I have handled problems of this sort and while certainly within the rules are not the rules.
as to the OP-he should show the evidence to his claim for this thread , showing that would prove that all was not divulged in the sales thread, which is a rules breach.
He also has never explained why he did not just file a PP claim if the seller wasn't willing to address this.
Last edited:
brownshoe
I support this site with my MIND
- Joined
- Sep 6, 2002
- Messages
- 9,951
To me it seems zakjak may not be comfortably fluent in written English. His sale picture could be better, but its as good as can be expected from some devices in the hands of an amatuer. Hoka's treatise appears to indicate he wants a collector knife and if so, as others mentioned, he should have requested better pictures and it is buyers remorse. So they are both "right"
