Caveat Emptor zakjak221

To clarify... I posted the last picture only to illustrated the depth of the rust. The pitting is visible in that photo if you look carefully. That was done by me yesterday and I had no hope or intention of receiving a refund after doing so. As I was quite sure would be the case, the steel wool did not remove the rust alone and marred the finish. I'll deal with the remaining rust and tubes when I rescale the knife. And again, I did not post here for resolution but to offer feedback in the form of fair warning to those whom might consider dealing with him in the future as I thought that was the purpose of this forum. I particularly appreciate all the insights of those who have posted with info pertaining how to protect oneself while purchasing.
 
Hoka said:
To clarify... I posted the last picture only to illustrated the depth of the rust. The pitting is visible in that photo if you look carefully. That was done by me yesterday and I had no hope or intention of receiving a refund after doing so. As I was quite sure would be the case, the steel wool did not remove the rust alone and marred the finish. I'll deal with the remaining rust and tubes when I rescale the knife. And again, I did not post here for resolution but to offer feedback in the form of fair warning to those whom might consider dealing with him in the future as I thought that was the purpose of this forum. I particularly appreciate all the insights of those who have posted with info pertaining how to protect oneself while purchasing.
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Paypal goods only!
 
And I forgot to add that the FandF choice of payment was my choice and responsibility. I'd like see a world with less need for lawyers and insurance buyer protection claims. I appreciate a handshake deal and a person who stands by their offerings and in most cases that has worked out fine for me. That was clearly a mistake here.
 
Lesson learned and thanks for pointing out then seller just another person I will not work with
 
That knife was sold without full disclosure of condition. I'd be very upset to have received a knife in that condition described as new. And it wasn't just one small issue you have documented that one could give benefit of the doubt that it was overlooked. That's just ridiculous
 
I think that the seller took an unfair advantage of the OP. He should have cleaned off the rust and scale stain, and then sold the knife as slightly altered.
 
Based on those pics, I'd say the OP did deserve a refund.

Whether the seller was dishonest in the matter, or merely negligent, I don't have enough information to be comfortable making that call. Of course, negligence (shipping out a knife without inspection) in and of itself is unacceptable, but not nearly as bad as outright dishonesty.

And not to harp on the point, but this thread reminds me of something a guy told me once- "Don't go and ruin being right by doing something wrong". The OP had a legitimate gripe, and he deserved a refund. In that sense he was right. But I think it was a mistake to start this thread by basically saying "The seller is a crook. Period." I think that was the wrong.

If the thread had started out with "Hey guys, I bought this knife, it has rust spots that were not disclosed, I asked for a refund but was denied, here are the pics, what do you think", I would have had no issue with the OP whatsoever, and I likely wouldn't have posted.

And if the thread had started that way, I can't help but wonder if the outcome might have been different. Perhaps the seller might have said "You know what, you're right, I'm sorry, I'll send you a refund". But we'll never know, maybe I'm being overly optimistic.

I will add that I like the OP's last post. I like the fact that he takes personal responsibility for the method of payment. It seems to me that the buyer always has a choice when it comes to payment, they can always tell the seller "no". I think if a person agrees to a method of payment, that they should own that decision and not blame the seller if that decision proves later to be a mistake.
 
Killgar, to address your comments directly... Whether he was intentionally dishonest or negligent, I can't speak to either, but what I'm quite sure of is that he took zero responsibility for his mistake. That, I find inexcusable. To address your second and third paragraphs, I never called zakjak a crook. I said he was unscrupulous, i.e. not honest and fair. And I say as much because whether it was his intention or not he; A) clearly mislead one (me) to believe the condition would be other than it is through his chosen text and inaccurate photo, and B) failed to right his wrong when it was made abundantly clear to him. I stand by my claim and choice of descriptors for zakjak. Again, I wasn't asking for opinions and help, I was offering a warning for those who might consider doing business with him. There was no other way for things to turn out. It was done. I spent my money with him, take responsibility for my mistakes and made my peace with the outcome. The only point of my post was to guide others to read between the lines in dealing with him.
 
killgar, I'm not trying to start a fan club for you, but again, I very much agree. :thumbup: My initial opinions were based on zero evidence from the OP; that has changed. The OP made mistakes but has absolutely owned up to them; good for him.:cool: My early membership time and transaction comparison was never meant to be an absolute, just a VERY strong indicator at that point in the thread. This thread has a lot of very useful information and exchange of opinion in it (I'm guessing that is why the mods have let it go so long-just a guess). I know I have learned a few things and am pleased to have done so. :) What a great community BF is; thank you (even though I am aware it is not my thread) to all thought out contributors (even those who disagree with me). ;)
 
Hoka said:
Killgar, to address your comments directly... Whether he was intentionally dishonest or negligent, I can't speak to either, but what I'm quite sure of is that he took zero responsibility for his mistake. That, I find inexcusable. To address your second and third paragraphs, I never called zakjak a crook. I said he was unscrupulous, i.e. not honest and fair. And I say as much because whether it was his intention or not he; A) clearly mislead one (me) to believe the condition would be other than it is through his chosen text and inaccurate photo, and B) failed to right his wrong when it was made abundantly clear to him. I stand by my claim and choice of descriptors for zakjak. Again, I wasn't asking for opinions and help, I was offering a warning for those who might consider doing business with him. There was no other way for things to turn out. It was done. I spent my money with him, take responsibility for my mistakes and made my peace with the outcome. The only point of my post was to guide others to read between the lines in dealing with him.
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I can see your points, but I was not privy to any personal communications between you and the seller. All I, or anyone else had to go on was what you wrote in your posts. And the facts are- you publicly questioned the sellers honesty without any offering of proof. Today, 2 DAYS after your first post, we now have the pictures. And I wonder if those pictures would have been provided if it were not for people repeatedly asking for them. I wonder if your accusation would have stood alone without any proof offered whatsoever. Sadly, I think the answer to that is yes.

As I said earlier, I believe that if a person is going to publicly question someones honesty, that they should provide proof to back it up, or don't make the accusation. And I don't mean provide the proof 2 days after making the accusation. If it's going to take someone time to gather and provide their proof, then they should wait until they have that proof ready before they post, this forum ain't going anywhere.

My understanding is that this sub-forum is not for the random posting of grievances and accusations ("Hey, don't buy from that guy, he's dishonest"). My understanding is that some level of proof is required to support an accusation. In fact, I believe it says something like that in the rules of this sub-forum.

And as far as receiving peoples unsolicited opinions, this is the internet. You're going to get peoples opinions whether you want them or not ;).

Sorry to hear about your bad experience buying a knife here at Bladeforums. I hope you can still enjoy the knife. Best of luck to you, sincerely :).
 
Thanks for posting the warning and photo's
I am pretty confident you will find your next transaction to be better-at least I hope so
 
katanas said:
killgar, I'm not trying to start a fan club for you, but again, I very much agree. :thumbup: My initial opinions were based on zero evidence from the OP; that has changed. The OP made mistakes but has absolutely owned up to them; good for him.:cool: My early membership time and transaction comparison was never meant to be an absolute, just a VERY strong indicator at that point in the thread. This thread has a lot of very useful information and exchange of opinion in it (I'm guessing that is why the mods have let it go so long-just a guess). I know I have learned a few things and am pleased to have done so. :) What a great community BF is; thank you (even though I am aware it is not my thread) to all thought out contributors (even those who disagree with me). ;)
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I always like to wait for facts before I make a judgement. Mere accusations alone should never be enough to ruin someones reputation or besmirch their character.

I'm glad you found my posts agreeable. Not everyone does. But hey, you can't please everybody (and I don't bother trying) :).
 
To address a few members who took the time to reply to me-

Peter Hartwig-

From browsing the "For Sale" threads I get the impression that rules 4 and 5 are somewhat "optional". As in, a member will not be punished or scorned if they only provide a short description and 1 or 2 pictures. I assume that as long as the buyer is happy with what they receive that the brevity of the description, and the shortage of pictures is not an issue. In any event, if I were to sell knives on this forum, I would provide lots of detailed, close-up pics with extensive descriptions. Heck, I already post several pics of my knives, and it has occasionally been said that my posts can be rather long. So a lack of descriptive text won't be an issue ;).


Palonej-

I have no doubt that the vast majority of transactions here at Bladeforums go off without a hitch. My concern is not that a deal could go badly, but rather, how will the matter be dealt with by the community here if a deal gone bad goes public. As unlikely as it might be, if a disgruntled and unreasonable buyer starts a thread accusing me of wrongdoing, I can't help but wonder how the matter would be received. Like for example- would I have any presumption of innocence? Will evidence of wrongdoing be required BEFORE rendering a judgement? Or, will proof NOT be required to trash my character and reputation? Will an accusation alone be enough to condemn me?

I've seen some disturbing things happen here in the GB&U over the years. And that raises the issue for me. It's something for me to consider. Particularly since I don't need to sell knives.


Germany Chris-

I appreciate your interest. Just to be clear, when I spoke of selling my knives, I was referring to knives not yet made. I wasn't referring to the knives I already made. Those have too much personal value to part with. I am currently working on simplifying the production process for future knives.
 
SELLER:

Cray,
Sure,I'll explain,or u can look at for sale thread.
I listed knife as never used,sharpened or carried. ..which it was not.
There was no blood on knife when I shipped it?
So his complaint is about a spec of rust on front tube fastner which I honestly didn't see.
So maybe he has buyers remorse or saw another knife that he likes better?
I'm not responsible for that.

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Now that the facts are in seems like an easy call here.
Well, I would agree with the "you are not responsible" part. You refused to take any responsibility for not mentioning many small defects on the knife.
You should have just offered to refund the guy when he sent you proof with the pics. But no, you just told him too bad. Kind of a crummy thing to do.

One more to add to the ignore list and it's not the OP.
 
"From browsing the "For Sale" threads I get the impression that rules 4 and 5 are somewhat "optional". As in, a member will not be punished or scorned if they only provide a short description and 1 or 2 pictures. I assume that as long as the buyer is happy with what they receive that the brevity of the description, and the shortage of pictures is not an issue. In any event, if I were to sell knives on this forum, I would provide lots of detailed, close-up pics with extensive descriptions. Heck, I already post several pics of my knives, and it has occasionally been said that my posts can be rather long. So a lack of descriptive text won't be an issue ."

Not so much optional as variable. As long as you get the description fully covered you are going to be good. This can be done verbally(wriiten) or through multiple photo's or a combination of both. How much needs to be described varies from knife to knife. If I have a knife direct from the dealer or manufacturer only out of the box for the photo's, with no problems there won't be a lot of description or photo's needed to cover it. The more used, defects and mars the more to cover. Seller should divulge all problems and defects. Buyers ?'s should really only have to cover preferences-such as lockup position( where it may be solid at 60%, but he likes 40%, he should ask about lockup position) and so on, but it certainly doesn't hurt to double check other items and ask for additional photo's.

Best to err on being overly honest, but granted not all are and fudging on the description is a much more common problem than outright stealing your knife or money. I often get knives that are a little off on description, but since I plan to use them I usually let it go. I have sent one back to a reluctant seller(needed a little prodding), that was just too far off.

But yes, moderators are not policing sales threads for description accuracy. Administration would only get involved with reported problems(at least as far as I know).

I'll add-there is often a some filling in of the description done behind the scenes(PM or Email) and sometimes a few ?'s are needed to prime the honest description pump.
 
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To Killgar and others who have posted with regard to providing evidence before judgement... I whole heartedly agree with the sentiment and would certainly have included the photos initially if it seemed to be allowed, just as I did to the seller upon receiving the knife. It was never my intent to withhold the evidence. I simply didn't want to break the rules. (I still find it a bit confusing that the Posting Permissions box at the bottom right of my screen says quite clearly that I 'may not post attachments'.) Upon my realization at the beckoning of so many members to do so, that I best just ignore that little sign and get some pictures up, I did what I could to get them posted asap with my lack of experience using such host sites in the time I had available. My apologies to all for not having them up sooner.
Again, thanks to all who have posted here. I've learned a lot from this thread and feel confident that the level of integrity here is far higher than my experience with zakjak had demonstrated.
 
You seem like a decent and reasonable guy Hoka, and I don't think ill of you. And I don't believe that you had any malicious intent in starting this thread, or that you were trying to be deceptive in any manner. You have a legitimate gripe against the seller, and you expressed that gripe in your own way. I believe that you were trying to warn people, I just didn't agree with how it transpired and expressed my opinion on the matter. And that's all it is- my opinion, nothing more or less. It's certainly not my place here to dictate how people post or to pass judgement on others.

I hope you stick around, Bladeforums has a lot to offer. :)
 
Hoka if you can't get a refund, which you very obviously deserve, you should nail the seller with a negative feedback. Lying about condition is some BS, and refusing to refund when called out on lying is what I would consider bannable behavior. Ruin that 100% feedback that he clearly did not deserve. I would be livid if I was in your situation.

I had one dealing that wound up with me not disclosing condition (I was unaware that the knife I traded had been modified, the recipient told me), and I simply apologized and corrected it. No deal is worth your reputation, and no seller with a shred of dignity will knowingly leave a buyer on the hook for his (the seller's) ignorance.
 
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