Caveat Emptor zakjak221

Peter Hartwig said:
Killgar-will try to answer some of your ?'s
I have had this type of problem a couple times in my hundreds of sales, so it doesn't come up much, but does come up.
In the cases(5 out of my couple hundred sales) I offer to pay the return shipping- I offer to make them whole. No one has ever taken me up on it, and 1/2 of those cases we have been able to settle for a monetary adjustment. I was wrong on 2 of those cases-nothing intentional, but I missed things(I can't even say how bad I feel about those-totally my fault). 2 of the other 3 amounted to dust, last one a matter of opinion. So 2 I settled for money 3 I gave a full refund.
As for time. I expect to hear fairly immediately if there is a problem, and I always have. The fly in the ointment is PP. When you take PP goods and services(as you should do) they get a say in the matter. They are going to decide in favor of a buyer that says they did not get what they were promised or didn't get the item(if the buyer files a claim). They have their own timeline for claims(not sure how many days).
If you settle with those that aren't satisfied, you don't land up in GBU threads, and you don't get PP claims against you, and you keep your reputation. I am on good terms with all that were not originally satisfied, due to addressing their concerns immediately and working until they were satisfied. The money loss is very insignificant to reputation.
Lastly I don't spend the money until they get their item and I confirm all is OK.
Most on the forum are very honest people and easy to deal with.
This is just how I have handled problems of this sort and while certainly within the rules are not the rules.

as to the OP-he should show the evidence to his claim for this thread , showing that would prove that all was not divulged in the sales thread, which is a rules breach.
He also has never explained why he did not just file a PP claim if the seller wasn't willing to address this.
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Thank you for your answers Peter.

The following is not a commentary on the OP, it' just some general comments.

Personally, I don't think a seller should be obligated to provide a refund on demand. Sure, if the item is not as advertised, and as long as the buyer is not being unreasonable (like using a jewelers loupe to find a tiny scratch, etc), then the seller should provide a refund. But the fact is, some buyers are never satisfied, some are nit-pickers, and some can be just plain dishonest.

I wonder how many people jump to say "I'll take it", just to reserve the purchase, never do any research, and plan all along to seek a refund if they don't like the knife.

It's too easy for a buyer to change their mind, make up a story, and/or threaten to trash someones reputation, in order to obtain a refund.

I don't think sellers should be required to offer a "test period" of ownership, shipping out a knife to someone so they can examine it, and then decide if they want to actually own it. And then having to issue a refund and pay for return shipping if the buyer decides they don't want it.

I say, if you don't know what you are buying, and if you aren't sure that you want to OWN it, then don't buy it. I don't think a seller should be required to offer a refund just because the buyer changes their mind, or doesn't like the knife, or was unreasonable in their expectations. And I don't think a sellers reputation should suffer, or have their integrity questioned, if they choose not to provide refunds on demand to any buyer who wants one.

I believe, when a buyer chooses to buy a knife, and pays for that knife, that they should expect and receive exactly what was advertised. And I also believe that when an honest seller accepts the first "I'll take it", packages up the knife, drives to the post office and stands in line to ship the knife, and passes up other potential buyers, that they should be able to expect that the sale is final, that the money is theirs, and that their reputation will not be sullied if the buyer is unhappy.

Just my point of view. :)
 
brownshoe said:
To me it seems zakjak may not be comfortably fluent in written English. His sale picture could be better, but its as good as can be expected from some devices in the hands of an amatuer. Hoka's treatise appears to indicate he wants a collector knife and if so, as others mentioned, he should have requested better pictures and it is buyers remorse. So they are both "right" :)
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It's entirely possible that neither person was in the wrong, but it was the OP who started a thread and called zakjak "unscrupulous", and without any evidence to back it up.

My concern is, as bad as it is to publicly cast aspersions on someones character without proof, tarnish their reputation, and try to hurt that persons future business prospects, I find it even more troubling that such behavior might be acceptable here.

I've seen people start threads with "Hey guys, I have an issue, and I'd like to get your thoughts on it". Then they tell their side of the story, taking great care not to slander the other person. That seems like the RIGHT way to handle a problem with a deal. But starting a thread with "Hey everybody, John Doe is a crook, don't buy from him", and offering no evidence to back up the accusation, seems like the WRONG way to do things. Very WRONG.

I'm not old, but I'm an old fashioned guy, and where I come from, you don't call someone a crook in public unless you can prove it. To publicly question a mans character is no small matter and it should never be done casually.
 
killgar said:
A few members of this forum have asked me to sell some of my knives, and contemplating that possibility, and whether or not to buy the proper membership and sell them here, I take an interest in situations such as this. Here are my thoughts and questions, I'd be interested in hearing other peoples thoughts and answers-

While the OP may not be here seeking a refund, he has publicly questioned the sellers honesty and ethics by calling him "unscrupulous". I think that's a very serious charge. But he hasn't provided any proof to back it up.

It seems to me that the same thing could happen to anybody. You sell a knife, buyer starts a thread calling you "unscrupulous", but offers NO proof. I would think that such behavior would be heavily frowned upon here. Shouldn't the policy be- if you don't offer proof of wrongdoing, you shouldn't start a thread questioning the honesty and integrity of someone else.

People are saying that a refund should have been given. And it seems like some believe that a refund should be provided to any buyer if that buyer is unhappy for ANY reason. But if you believe that a refund should be provided upon request, who should pay the return shipping and insurance on the knife? If the seller did nothing wrong, if the buyer is being nit-picky or didn't ask questions and ask for photos prior to purchase, then should the seller have to pay? Again, this could happen to anyone.

And as a seller, do you place a time limit on issuing refunds? What if a week after receiving the knife the buyer says they found a flaw and want a refund? What if you the seller has already spent the money? If the buyer starts a thread publicly questioning your integrity because you won't issue a refund a week (or more) after delivery, will the jury here determine that you are unscrupulous in your practices and recommend that people not buy from you? And again, it seems to me that any seller could find themselves in such a situation.

It appears to me that there are "posted rules" for selling on this forum, and starting threads in the GB&U, and then there are "personal policies" created by the members themselves. And while those "policies" are often shared by others, and although they are not "the rules", it appears that peoples reputations are publicly judged by those "personal policies".

In any event, wherever I might decide to sell knives, if I do, I will create my own very detailed return/refund policy.

As for this thread, the discoloration on the handle is obvious to me, I would have asked about it before saying "I'll take it". But I also would have asked for more/better quality pictures. And if I didn't receive such pictures, I wouldn't buy it. If I buy something without first making a thorough inquiry of the item, then I feel that I have only myself to blame if I'm unhappy with the condition of the item, particularly if the condition issue is something I would have noticed during a thorough inquiry. I wouldn't blame my own failure on the seller and publicly call them "unscrupulous".
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My goodness that is a lot of text coming from someone with no recorded transactions here. Some of the stuff you said I agree with but other things no. Hard to tell. There is a lot....
 
craytab said:
My goodness that is a lot of text coming from someone with no recorded transactions here. Some of the stuff you said I agree with but other things no. Hard to tell. There is a lot....
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I don't believe that it is required for someone to have bought or sold on Bladeforums in order to post in this sub-forum. And I don't believe that there are any limitations in the rules regarding how long someones post can be. Like I said, I'm contemplating buying the necessary membership and selling items on this forum. And just as I would do research on a knife I might buy, I'm doing research on how things work in the GB&U.

In any event, no one is being forced to read my posts. In fact, people don't have to see my posts at all if they don't want to. They can simply add me to their ignore list.

But if you wish to elaborate on what parts of my post you disagree with, I'm always receptive to a difference of opinion. And like I said, I'm interested in reading peoples answers to the questions I asked. So if you have answers, I'd be glad to read them.
 
whether intentional or not, the seller of the knife in question did not disclose the true condition of the blade. since when is that the buyer's responsibility? maybe on other sites. BF has a higher standard. anyone making excuses for (insert latest scalawag's name here) should go elsewhere. why is "if you're not happy, I'll make it right" a sign of weakness and intractability? only in a world of opposites. i'm a proud BF member since 2001 because this kind of nonsense is is called out for what it is: unacceptable. mr zakjak221 is the non-exception that cements the rule.
 
Killgar-no doubt we sometimes jump the gun before all the evidence is in. Maybe it is that we are just too trusting when someone says they have had a problem.

Back to a general cooment:
These are the 2 rules that would apply here:
"4.When describing your items, be honest and provide an accurate & detailed description of the item. Don't forget to mention defects, blemishes, new, used, or other problems. When in doubt, be pessimistic with your descriptions. If you have a problem being honest, upfront, and are unable to honor your word then you do not belong here.
5.Provide as many photos as possible, in the best lighting possible. It's always nice for buyers to see what they are going to get. Threads with pictures sell items faster than those without. Keep in mind, gigantic photos take forever to load for some people and can be an eyesore, resizing to a reasonable size is advised"

If you go by what the OP says rule 4 doesn't seem to be met, but he has yet to provide photo's to back that up, so it is just his word for now.

I can't say where everyone that says the deal isn't done until both parties are happy(or satisfied) come up with it, but it is a rule on another major knife forum that many of us are also on, and we may be transferring it over here by error or I as I do-just choose to use it on my sales(along with all this forums rules)
 
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killgar said:
I don't believe that it is required for someone to have bought or sold on Bladeforums in order to post in this sub-forum. And I don't believe that there are any limitations in the rules regarding how long someones post can be. Like I said, I'm contemplating buying the necessary membership and selling items on this forum. And just as I would do research on a knife I might buy, I'm doing research on how things work in the GB&U.

In any event, no one is being forced to read my posts. In fact, people don't have to see my posts at all if they don't want to. They can simply add me to their ignore list.

But if you wish to elaborate on what parts of my post you disagree with, I'm always receptive to a difference of opinion. And like I said, I'm interested in reading peoples answers to the questions I asked. So if you have answers, I'd be glad to read them.
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I don't have anything to bloviate on about anything you a have said. But please upgrade so you can sell and buy more knives! Supporting this place is a great thing!
 
Folks... I must say that I'm both surprised and impressed with the attention that the feedback forum receives. It says a lot about the integrity of the forum in general that my claims would be met with both support and scrutiny. I didn't realize that raising a flag might result in trial by internet, but it does make for a far more effective feedback system than the fluff used elsewhere. In regard to providing 'evidence', I've been under the assumption that since I'm not authorized to post pictures, doing so via other avenues might not be acceptable. Interesting that many feel it should be a requirement when posting photos isn't supported by the site at my level. I'm still not entirely clear how to post pictures here, but someone in the thread has offered their assistance and should that not pan out I'll request help to do so. While I don't know why by what means the transaction took place is relevant here, perhaps it's useful to someone and my payment was made via pp gift. I’ll reiterate that I have no interest in pursuing reimbursement via any means at this point. I don't believe that will be worth my time nor energy. Rather than spend time in front of the computer filling out forms, I'll spend the time at the workbench making something unique of the opportunity. Regardless of what condition I received it or whether it was a fail deal, the blade has good bones and will be a great knife. I do, however, feel obliged to make others aware of my dealings with zakjak221 as $3XX is plenty of money to spend on useful things for many people and I don't think my dealings with him were met with integrity, honesty or fairness. I purchased a knife based on a picture and a simple description. I take responsibility for not asking more questions or requesting a clearer photo in regards to the stain on the scale, which is why I've elected to chalk this up to experience. I failed to notice the stain, which despite being far more obvious in person than I can photograph myself, is hard to miss once you know it's there. What I find perplexing though, is that Mark claims never to have noticed it himself, nor had he ever noticed the rust. Equally perplexing is that the rust doesn't exist in the photo's he advertised with. That rust, (which I've now removed first with 0000 steel wool until the finish marred and was still present, then with a wedge of aluminum,) was significant enough to leave pitting. There is no way that photo is within a year to two old unless he wiped the knife down with acetone then fondled it with one hand in the pickle jar. Perhaps zakjak can tell us when It’s from? Is it possible he didn't notice the stain and rust? Absolutely. I've yet to read of any qualification for visual acuity for selling on this forum. But the simple fact that he posted (as I suggest) an older, pre rust photo of the knife, then dismissed any responsibility for its condition because I paid less than he did, I find disturbing. By Mark's reckoning, the fact that he paid $60 more for a knife than I (or presumably anyone buying from him) did, he feels just in selling that knife with rust using photos that don't show the current condition should be acceptable. I disagree and I believe that most people purchasing would as well. Using old photo's when the current condition is deteriorated is nothing better than disingenuous if you're not willing to take responsibility for the change in condition since the picture was made. As is hiding behind your true statements when the things you leave out are at least as important. Hence my assertion and I stand by it. I'll try to get pictures up by the end of the day for those who require more “evidence” than Mark’s dismissive sales tactics apparent in his contributions here. He certainly could have sorted the matter himself by posting the photo I sent him upon receipt of the knife. If you don't see them here tonight and are willing to post them for me, please feel free to contact me. Thank you.
 
Hoka said:
In regard to providing 'evidence', I've been under the assumption that since I'm not authorized to post pictures, doing so via other avenues might not be acceptable. Interesting that many feel it should be a requirement when posting photos isn't supported by the site at my level. I'm still not entirely clear how to post pictures here, but someone in the thread has offered their assistance and should that not pan out I'll request help to do so.
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Odog27 already explained how to do this.

Odog27 said:
You can easily post pictures. Upload your photos to photobucket or some other image sharing site. Copy the IMG link and paste it in this thread. That's it.
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Hoka-Not trying to play rule moderator here but this is this forums rule & why we wanted the photo's to back up the claim.
"3. If you have a grievance with someone, by all means proceed and post your situation. You should communicate with them FIRST and BEFORE you try posting a thread. We will do the best we can to help you. But understand, deals that have occurred on other forums, Facebook, Instagram, eBay, and other venues we have no power over. A heads up is appreciated, but be responsible in what you write, it is a permanent record of your thoughts. Your post should consist of and contain factual information, not assumptions or false allegations. Abbreviated threads like, ""be careful buying or selling to so and so..." with no subsequent details will not be allowed to stay open for discussion or debate. If you are heated, wait a day to calm down, no one is impressed by foul mouthed, disorganized posts that contained fragments of broken sentences or giant walls of text that no one reads. This is NOT Whine and Cheese. Do not make comments that are barbed or provoke other people to get angry. Cool, calm, and collected is the way to deal with disagreements."
The photo's in this situation take it out of the he said she said banter."
The payment info tells us if a claim could even have been filed. In your case with use of gift the answer is no. It also tells something about the parties involved in the deal.
In general though the exchange works on honor(and trust) , so when one gets burned it hurts the whole system. There are some safeguards, but they can be beat if one is of that mindset, or you don't use them. PP goods and services is one such safeguard, that you throw away when using gift.
Hope that explains some.
 
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Just a word to Killgar......for every 'bad' post in the GB&U Forum, there are hundreds of good transactions not listed.
I have had about 40 dealings on the Exchange and all but 1 went off perfectly. The 1 that didn't was just a miscommunication that was straightened out with a couple PMs.
This thread is NOT the norm.
Joe
 
palonej said:
Just a word to Killgar......for every 'bad' post in the GB&U Forum, there are hundreds of good transactions not listed.
I have had about 40 dealings on the Exchange and all but 1 went off perfectly. The 1 that didn't was just a miscommunication that was straightened out with a couple PMs.
This thread is NOT the norm.
Joe
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GB&U is a little like the evening news. It can look like bad deals are the norm, and while they are very few they do get a lot of attention. Those boring good deals go on in the hundreds to thousands with very little notice.
 
Peter, thank you for the explanation. I've put a couple photos on photobucket...

Here is the knife as received;
http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/Hoka/media/Mobile Uploads/image_zpsqyfsjtwm.jpeg.html?sort=3&o=3

The next two show what I consider to be minor surface rust on the same knife, which I do think could easily be missed, but would still affect the surface to remove. Hardly worth mentioning and I wouldn't have made a stink about them.
http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/Hoka/media/Mobile Uploads/image_zpsgf2yknnw.png.html?sort=3&o=2
http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/Hoka/media/Mobile Uploads/image_zpsddol86ae.png.html?sort=3&o=1

The last is after having removed the rust.
http://s1376.photobucket.com/user/Hoka/media/Mobile Uploads/image_zpsrtioqwzl.png.html?sort=3&o=0
 
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craytab said:
Those issues should have been disclosed. It's a done deal now though.
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If only for the fact that he used Gift. The seller did tell him to use steel wool to remove the rust. He should have to live with that, not the buyer.
 
egally08 said:
If only for the fact that he used Gift. The seller did tell him to use steel wool to remove the rust. He should have to live with that, not the buyer.
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I disagree. I think once you edit the item it is yours, even if directed by the seller. Of course there was no buyer or seller here so we will never know what paypal thought of such a situation....
 
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The op got swindled here. Those are obvious defects that weren't disclosed. And as for the statement the op only has 3 post compared to the 6 years and many transactions of the seller what's that have to do with anything? To me it shows what a few other people said. It dosent take any certain amount of post to scam someone,and the seller scamed the op no doubt. Hoka who idea was it to use PayPal freinds and family? I'm sure it was the seller because he knew that the knife wasn't NIB and Hoka would have no recourse to recoupe his money. The op has shared well worded replies and now pictures of the said damage and everyone can see that those things weren't disclosed. The seller one or two three sentence post but hey he's been here 6 years right? I say the discription of the seller from to OP is spot on.


Oh and Hoka don't use pp Friends and family it only leave you in a bad spot
 
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