Cheap Knives: Why The 440A Craze?

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[QUOTE="katanas, post: 17577278, member: 309915". Anyway, who would lie about their steel being 440A? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
if the steel was really 3Cr13 or similar
 
My meaning was that if one were going to lie about their super crappy steel why not call it , at least, D-2 or 440C (what the heck, they are lying anyway :poop:)? 440A isn't exactly going to impress. :rolleyes:
 
katanas said:
My meaning was that if one were going to lie about their super crappy steel why not call it , at least, D-2 or 440C (what the heck, they are lying anyway :poop:)? 440A isn't exactly going to impress. :rolleyes:
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It does for those who have never even heard of d2 or any other type of steel besides "surgical stainless".
 
I don't know who "those" are, maybe kids who need to learn as we all did, but that may well be true, and also very sad. :( It's kind of like blatant copies of knives, markings, packaging, etc. in order to dupe those not careful or knowledgeable enough into a buying their "stuff". :poop:
 
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22-rimfire said:
What's your "tool kit"?
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Just my bag of tools. Hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches, etc.

Looks like you have moved to Cold Steel stuff or maybe you've always been a Cold Steel person. One day you'll probably move on from there just like I did from SOG like 10 years ago. I seldom even look at the selection of knives available from Cold Steel. Lyn Thompson... too much BS for me. I own two Cold Steel blades; the Tuff Lite and a sword.
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Yes, I like Cold Steel. And I like their Tri-Ad locks, but I miss their old Voyagers, especially the 5- and 6-inch models. Don't much care for SOGs, though I have the Agency, Super Bowie and one Magnum that turned me off that series forever. I also like the new XTS-XHP steel CS uses, but I also love their old AUS8A stainless. CS heat treat has been exceptional in the knives I've used. Oh, and I enjoy the Spyderco knives I've acquired, especially my green Endura and my black ones, too. A year or two ago I saw two Enduras on eBay for the price of one. When I got them the boxes were torn up, but both knives were brand new. One I've put a lot of wear and tear on. The other remains new and rides in my Ruger 10/22 rifle kit, packed with my bugout bag. The thing I don't much like about Spyderco is that they all look alike.
 
Stargater said:
Just my bag of tools. Hammers, screwdrivers, wrenches, etc.


Yes, I like Cold Steel. And I like their Tri-Ad locks, but I miss their old Voyagers, especially the 5- and 6-inch models. Don't much care for SOGs, though I have the Agency, Super Bowie and one Magnum that turned me off that series forever. I also like the new XTS-XHP steel CS uses, but I also love their old AUS8A stainless. CS heat treat has been exceptional in the knives I've used. Oh, and I enjoy the Spyderco knives I've acquired, especially my green Endura and my black ones, too. A year or two ago I saw two Enduras on eBay for the price of one. When I got them the boxes were torn up, but both knives were brand new. One I've put a lot of wear and tear on. The other remains new and rides in my Ruger 10/22 rifle kit, packed with my bugout bag. The thing I don't much like about Spyderco is that they all look alike.
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In the same way all dogs look alike maybe.
 
DocJD said:
Back in the day, 440C was the new sexy steel but now is scorned. Providing it's done right, I still believe it's a fine steel.
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It's all how one defines "fine steel." And in my view, too many steels today are scorned when they shouldn't be.

Several years ago, Cold Steel made several now popular knives made from a batch of 440A it had gotten at a super price, and not everyone there was happy about it. The fellow I spoke to at Cold Steel was pretty clear that the sooner they finished with that run of steel, the sooner they could get back to work making their knives out of other steels. When I asked what would happen if Cold Steel got another run of 440A at a good price, he immediately dismissed it and was apparently right. I've still got several knives from that 440A run -- several Pro-Lites, a couple of Night Forces (serrated and plain) and a Recon 1. As I stated earlier, these knives came viciously sharp and have been some of my more favorite knives. Some of the early YouTube reviews actually recounted some unintentional nicks while unpacking them, and I had a few myself!

My point is that I never quite understood why I encountered the initial revulsion from the CS rep (the knives seemed no better or worse than the AUS8A I was using at the time). The heat treat of the 440A certainly seemed to be right on and to this day the edges seem to take and keep an edge just fine. The Pro-Lites are some of the most appealing tantos I've ever owned and the black finish is a lusterous deep black has worn very well.

Sometimes I think much of this blade steel stuff has more to do with what's between our ears than what's in the blade. Those who work with knives every day and who use their knives hard in docks or in warehouses can tell. For others, it would be tough. When I'm downstairs cutting up boxes, it's hard to tell many times.
 
Over the years, I have had a pretty good assortment of knives in many different low ranking alloys(and a few good ones), according to some here. 440A. 440C. ATS-34. 154-CM. D2. VG-10. L-6. 1095. SK5. 0170-6C. 5160. AUS-8A. AUS-6A. Sandvik 12C27. Bohler K-110. ZDP-189. Blah, blah, blah. You get the picture. Blackie Collins told me in 1986 that he liked 12C27 for the fine grain and relatively simple heat-treatment for a stainless steel. Barry Dawson did a great job on 440C, as someone previously mentioned(but I like the 80CrV2 better). My Kabar/Dozier Big Easy slip-joint in 440A takes a wicked edge, and holds it acceptably well.

In my opinion, 440A, when done right, with proper heat treat and geometry, is a decent steel. Not great, not necessarily crappy, but it can make a perfectly usable knife. The key word here is USABLE. In the 440 series, I prefer 440C, but my decently made 440A blades will still do the jobs for which I intended them. Would I rather have D2? Yup. Oh, wait, I DO. Or VG-10. Oh wait, I DO. Or even 12C27. Oh, wait... I use my knives, and I sharpen them when they need it. Some might need it a little more often than others. But I'm not going to throw out usable blades just because someone I've never met doesn't happen to like the steel. In MY world, edge geometry and cutting technique can generally make up for any real or perceived deficiency in a particular alloy. You can buy and use whatever you want to. And we're both just as right, or wrong, as anyone else. Opinions are like a**holes. And I should know. As a QC inspector, I AM one! It's my job.

We now return to your regularly scheduled programming.
 
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Having two boxes of knives, one full of inexpensive beaters and one full of favorites, I made it a point to get into the latter yesterday. It was high up in the closet and I hadn't gotten into it for quite awhile, so it was great seeing some my old collectibles. There on top, in a plastic sleeve, was a new Cold Steel X2 Voyager with its beautiful, polished blade. Under it was my Extra-Large 5-inch Voyager. Then I had other prizes: various titanium CRKT knives (and an M21-04, M16-14SFA, M16-13Z, a bizarre Ryan 7, a Brian Tighe, a large Lake Design Thunderbolt and an Iraq Desert Cruiser), a couple of Beretta Airweights, even a few good quality Smith & Wessons (two Hawkbills, plain and serrated) one Magnesium, a few Cold Steel Hold Outs of various sizes, a CS Hombre, a beautiful, but not wonderfully functional Kershaw Storm II, a Spyderco Byrd, Gerber EZ-Out and AR 3.00 and two cheap Winchesters. Not exactly treasures, but something I can go through on rainy days.

How about your toy boxes? What do you have in them that you've never gotten around to carrying or using?

And what's your favorite knife in these collections? I'd have to say mine's the Airweight Beretta. I'm amazed at how comfortable it is to hold and use. You can get them for about $70 including shipping. It's an amazing knife, though it's hard to find in plain edge.

.
 
440A was the go to steel for many years because you could get big coils of it easily from steel suppliers, it was easy on the machines, decently priced, and it was easy to work. And as was mentioned, it is a pretty good steel when it is handled by a good maker.

Also a lot of it was based on the prevalent thoughts on stainless steels for many years. It wasn't till the late fifties that manufacturers got a good idea on how to handle it for good performance. There was a prejudice against any stainless, and it took a long time to break that. Old timers constantly complained that it was too hard, or chippy, or just not right. Queen used 440C for a long time, but didn't advertise it much for this reason. Instead, they went with the Queen Steel trademark. A similar thing happened in Europe, while inox is usually associated with cheap knives now, for a bit even knives with 440c were just labeled "inox".

So when you got a steel that was popular with the public, you didn't change it. The same thing is going on today. 440A or similar work, so way change it.

I also wouldn't be so sure that any knife stamped 440 or 440a is actually 440a. It was standard practice for a while to label anything that came close as 440a to make it palatable to US audiences. For a while in the 80's, some tried to get away with just listing it as #400 or #440 type, perhaps luckily that didn't stick.

It wasn't till you had the rise of smaller specialty companies that the move to specialty steels happened.
 
For every knife you find labeled "440A," I'll bet you a dollar (U.S.) that there are 100 labeled "440" or "Surgical Stainless."

And I ask again how we know what steel is actually being used.

440a is not a popular material because hardly anyone would know what you were talking about, titt.

Those who come here are far from a cross-section.

The complaint of the adults in my Boy Scout troop in the 1950's was that stainless was too soft and would not hold an edge. So "If it won't rust, don't buy it."
 
I enjoy stainless steels that are easy to sharpen and tough. Throw in low cost and now you've really got my attention. My Rough Rider slip joint knives claim to be 440A and perform well. I am curious how a 440A knife with an optimal heat treat would hold up to rough use.
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I've seen some books on hiking/outdoors, in which the author(s), when discussing knives, still claim that stainless steels can't take or hold an edge, and/or are too hard to sharpen; and that the only good knives are straight carbon steel. These were not old books, but post-2K. Apparently, some people's knife knowledge is stuck in the 1950s. There is nothing wrong with good carbon steel knives, but I'm one of 'those people' who generally prefers quality stainless over straight carbon steels. Though there are some exceptions.

Jim
 
Top steel below is 440c 0.015" thick edge at 12 dps (Colin Cox)

Bottom is "no letter" Japanese 440 from an Oryx Raider II: 0.025" at 17 dps. So a much stouter edge doing the same chopping work on soft wood...

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I've seen Randall's 440 do incredibly well, and at least one that did badly.

I think 440 is quite finicky but usually great. At its best there is no other like it. At worst there is nothing worse... A B or C means very little... This below is 440C after a handful of hits on soft wood:

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Of all knife steels, 440 is the one with the broadest number of sources, and it is also one of the easiest to heat treat wrong even when trying to be consistent. 440 tells you the chemical composition, and it won't rust, but little else. With such a broad range of results, arguing over the importance of A B or C is downright comical. Randall sometimes get a deal on something closer to C: B or C matters little to them (this from the shop foreman). I have seen even 420 perform quite well.

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
Of all knife steels, 440 is the one with the broadest number of sources, and it is also one of the easiest to heat treat wrong even when trying to be consistent. 440 tells you the chemical composition, and it won't rust, but little else. With such a broad range of results, arguing over the importance of A B or C is downright comical.
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440A has .65-.75% carbon, 440C has .95-1.2%. Saying that the difference isn't important is downright comical. Metallurgy tells us this. Whacking different knives of different weights against wood in uncontrolled unscientific circumstances tells us nothing of use.
 
Planterz said:
440A has .65-.75% carbon, 440C has .95-1.2%. Saying that the difference isn't important is downright comical. Metallurgy tells us this. Whacking different knives of different weights against wood in uncontrolled unscientific circumstances tells us nothing of use.
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Did you ever consider that such aspects like steel cleanness varies enormously according to source? And that this has a gigantic impact on exactly what we do?

I would guess really clean 420 will eat for dinner any dirty supersteel...

I have had a lot of trouble with custom knives, while cheap factory knives often do exceptionally well (at least they did before CPMs came along).

Did you consider that overgrinding for a few extra seconds can completely ruin the temper, and that maybe some harder wearing composition makes this much more likely?

Also, depending on wood fiber density, perhaps some wood fibers like better less carbon hardened harder, or more carbon hardened softer?

Or less carbon with a finer geometry? Or more carbon with a thicker geometry? Or both with more or less hardening followed by more or less tempering?

What do you know about the chemical composition of what you are cutting, and how it interacts with a particular steel composition and heat treatment protocol? Not much.

I just showed you how widely spread is the behaviour with the same steel chemical composition.

You fixate on the steel chemical composition because that is practically all the hard data you have access to. This is like saying how great a car is from the number of cylinders... Normally a knife owner has not the slightest clue about even the most basic things, like what the heat treatment protocol was.

If I had to guess from some of the custom knives I tested, factories doing the bigger orders get the cleaner steels. That's just a theory...

Gaston
 
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