Cheap Knives: Why The 440A Craze?

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Gaston444 said:
Did you ever consider that such aspects like steel cleanness varies enormously according to source? And that this has a gigantic impact on exactly what we do?

I would guess really clean 420 will eat for dinner any dirty supersteel...

I have had a lot of trouble with custom knives, while cheap factory knives often do exceptionally well (at least they did before CPMs came along).

Did you consider that overgrinding for a few extra seconds can completely ruin the temper, and that maybe some harder wearing composition makes this much more likely?

Also, depending on wood fiber density, perhaps some wood fibers like better less carbon hardened harder, or more carbon hardened softer?

Or less carbon with a finer geometry? Or more carbon with a thicker geometry? Or both with more or less hardening followed by more or less tempering?

What do you know about the chemical composition of what you are cutting, and how it interacts with a particular steel composition and heat treatment protocol? Not much.

I just showed you how widely spread is the behaviour with the same steel chemical composition.

You fixate on the steel chemical composition because that is practically all the hard data you have access to. This is like saying how great a car is from the number of cylinders... Normally a knife owner has not the slightest clue about even the most basic things, like what the heat treatment protocol was.

If I had to guess from some of the custom knives I tested, factories doing the bigger orders get the cleaner steels. That's just a theory...

Gaston
Click to expand...
Please show some information on this "steel cleanness" issue.
 
Gaston444 said:
Did you ever consider that such aspects like steel cleanness varies enormously according to source? And that this has a gigantic impact on exactly what we do?

I would guess really clean 420 will eat for dinner any dirty supersteel...

I have had a lot of trouble with custom knives, while cheap factory knives often do exceptionally well (at least they did before CPMs came along).

Did you consider that overgrinding for a few extra seconds can completely ruin the temper, and that maybe some harder wearing composition makes this much more likely?

Also, depending on wood fiber density, perhaps some wood fibers like better less carbon hardened harder, or more carbon hardened softer?

Or less carbon with a finer geometry? Or more carbon with a thicker geometry? Or both with more or less hardening followed by more or less tempering?

What do you know about the chemical composition of what you are cutting, and how it interacts with a particular steel composition and heat treatment protocol? Not much.

I just showed you how widely spread is the behaviour with the same steel chemical composition.

You fixate on the steel chemical composition because that is practically all the hard data you have access to. This is like saying how great a car is from the number of cylinders... Normally a knife owner has not the slightest clue about even the most basic things, like what the heat treatment protocol was.

If I had to guess from some of the custom knives I tested, factories doing the bigger orders get the cleaner steels. That's just a theory...

Gaston
Click to expand...
 
Custom knife makers just need to send there knifes to Buck get the bos heat treated and be done.
And wash there steel with soap.
Last one was a joke.
 
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craytab said:
Please show some information on this "steel cleanness" issue.
Click to expand...

How about this: To be considered "Aircraft Quality", all aircraft metal components must be analysed for purity of content. Impurities are a well-known production issue that affects the durability of the material.

Sorry to break it to you, but the metal in every one of your knives would not be acceptable for aircraft manufacturing because the manufacturing process is not checked for impurities: It is not aircraft-grade. Because knives are low-tech items, they are not a life or death matter for hundreds of passengers...

Does impurities in the metal affect edge performance? It obviously does, but since the parameters for verifying this fall outside the requirements of this particular industry (especially the custom knife industry, which is an even lower-tech small output variant of the mainstream knife industry), there is no way of really knowing "where" a particular knife or maker falls in a "Cleanliness spectrum" that is clearly outside the realm of this low-tech industry.

Ever wonder why some airplane bolts cost thousands of dollars each? You think a few of those made to the quality level of your knives would pass muster to hold an engine up?

There are a few clues that steel cleanliness is a significant issue: Among those, from what I observed, is that the worst edge performance I have ever seen was usually from expensive, small run US custom makers. Among the best I have ever seen was usually Aus-6 production knives from Seki City (in Al Mar knives notably), but I have even seen recently a low end 420 produce similar performance (From cheapo Master Cutlery no less!): These are not even high carbon stainless, but they are all from high volume factories... I did read that Japanese steel makers made special efforts to have the cleanest and finest grain steel possible, and I did see the superior results of this even on medium range Seki made knives. From whatever maker, I will gladly pay a huge premium to see "Seki", or even just "Japan", stamped on any knife... Only once, with an oddball low-end company called "Oryx", did the "Japan" stamp fail me.

The very first time I was ever made aware of this steel "cleanliness" issue was in a mid-80s yearly "Book of Knives" issue, one of those yearly soft cover books with a huge list of custom makers, where a sizeable article was devoted to single 19th century straight razor that had demonstrated an exceptional ability to hold an edge through an incredible amount of shaving, and this over a very long period of use. The author had an extensive spectrograph analysis done on this old razor, to see if anything was special about it. It turns out there was nothing special about it, except that the steel was so incredibly clean...

I remember a specific sentence in the article, which stayed with me ever since: "If only aircraft-quality aluminium was this clean!"

Just because something is outside the reach of a particular industry does not mean it does not exist. That big runs of cheap high volume steels could have a higher inherent performance than small runs of expensive low-output makers may seem counter-intuitive, but it is certainly not outside the realm of common sense.

Gaston
 
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The ATS-34 in my Deleon bowie is a Japanese analog for 154CM, and heat-treated to about 59RC. The edge doesn't roll on hard wood, it doesn't roll on soft wood, and weeds, vines, and grasses are, for all practical purposes, not even there. It has boned a few hams, without rolling or chipping. Cut cardboard. Chopped, sliced, and diced its way into my heart. I'm SURE you know this, but 154CM was formulated specifically for the turbine fan blades in jet engines, and is known to be a very clean steel.(at least that's what I heard)(the fact that it's also a decent cutlery grade stainless was just a bonus) And if that ain't 'aircraft-grade' enough for ya, you have a slight problem separating fact from opinion. Don't worry, you're not alone, and you CAN get help for this. There may even be a support group in your area....
 
Gaston444 said:
How about this: To be considered "Aircraft Quality", all aircraft metal components must be analysed for purity of content. Impurities are a well-known production issue that affects the durability of the material.

Sorry to break it to you, but the metal in every one of your knives would not be acceptable for aircraft manufacturing because the manufacturing process is not checked for impurities: It is not aircraft-grade. Because knives are low-tech items, they are not a life or death matter for hundreds of passengers...

Does impurities in the metal affect edge performance? It obviously does, but since the parameters for verifying this fall outside the requirements of this particular industry (especially the custom knife industry, which is an even lower-tech small output variant of the mainstream knife industry), there is no way of really knowing "where" a particular knife or maker falls in a "Cleanliness spectrum" that is clearly outside the realm of this low-tech industry.

Ever wonder why some airplane bolts cost thousands of dollars each? You think a few of those made to the quality level of your knives would pass muster to hold an engine up?

There are a few clues that steel cleanliness is a significant issue: Among those, from what I observed, is that the worst edge performance I have ever seen was usually from expensive, small run US custom makers. Among the best I have ever seen was usually Aus-6 production knives from Seki City (in Al Mar knives notably), but I have even seen recently a low end 420 produce similar performance (From cheapo Master Cutlery no less!): These are not even high carbon stainless, but they are all from high volume factories... I did read that Japanese steel makers made special efforts to have the cleanest and finest grain steel possible, and I did see the superior results of this even on medium range Seki made knives. From whatever maker, I will gladly pay a huge premium to see "Seki", or even just "Japan", stamped on any knife... Only once, with an oddball low-end company called "Oryx", did the "Japan" stamp fail me.

The very first time I was ever made aware of this steel "cleanliness" issue was in a mid-80s yearly "Book of Knives" issue, one of those yearly soft cover books with a huge list of custom makers, where a sizeable article was devoted to single 19th century straight razor that had demonstrated an exceptional ability to hold an edge through an incredible amount of shaving, and this over a very long period of use. The author had an extensive spectrograph analysis done on this old razor, to see if anything was special about it. It turns out there was nothing special about it, except that the steel was so incredibly clean...

I remember a specific sentence in the article, which stayed with me ever since: "If only aircraft-quality aluminium was this clean!"

Just because something is outside the reach of a particular industry does not mean it does not exist. That big runs of cheap high volume steels could have a higher inherent performance than small runs of expensive low-output makers may seem counter-intuitive, but it is certainly not outside the realm of common sense.

Gaston
Click to expand...
Not one word of what you said relates to providing proof for what your claim was.

Gaston444 said:
Among the best I have ever seen was usually Aus-6 production knives from Seki City (in Al Mar knives notably),
Click to expand...

I've had more AUS6 from seki than most people here, certainly more than you. Not one example out performed any CPM or other "super steel", of which I've had and used most of them.

So again, you are wrong and people shouldn't listen to you.
 
I'm a wee bit skeptical about this "theory" about unclean steels. Dirty steel? What, did someone accidentally throw a beryllium copper wrench in the crucible? Did Timmy lose his ice cream cone in the pot on "bring your kid to work day"?

Or maybe he means that the steel isn't mixed homogeneously. If only there were a way. Perhaps they could melt the steel, shoot it through a high pressure nozzle, which would atomize the liquid to form a uniform powder. Then the powdered steel could be press-forged into ingots of homogeneous steel.

I should contact Crucible Industries about this new particle metalurgy process I just invented.
 
In hopes to either prove or disprove or clarify G Gaston444 misconceptions about steel "cleanliness" I searched some and first thing came up with was in reference to literally clean steel for recycling. So first try turned up nothing but then I started trying to research aircraft grade and well we have all heard the term "aircraft grade aluminum" and you know what it turned up? To a very small degree our friend here has a point yes the purity of the product is important and a factor. That is a fact of any standard of a composite material including steel. The standards for CPM-154 have specific tolerance for variations of the elements that make up that steel and if the product is not withing those tolerances it is not considered that type/class/grade of steel. Just to further note while I don't believe a aircraft bolt is thousands of dollars unless it is a bolt the size of my arm, which believably an aircraft could need, they will be significantly more expensive they probably do use a specific type of steel and they are also probably made with very specific and tight tolerance in the size, threading, and weight and in addition it is a very niche item where the suppliers have much more control over cost.
 
Common sense would suggest that "steel cleanliness" could be an issue when your dealing with steel used in an industry that generally speaking is pretty low tech. I suspect you don't always get what you think you're getting when it comes to steel. I think it would be very difficult to document something that the steel manufacturers do not want you to document. Other than air craft construction, I don't think there is any "money in it" to go to the trouble of doing the steel quality investigation for something like knives.
 
PirateSeulb said:
In hopes to either prove or disprove or clarify G Gaston444 misconceptions about steel "cleanliness" I searched some and first thing came up with was in reference to literally clean steel for recycling. So first try turned up nothing but then I started trying to research aircraft grade and well we have all heard the term "aircraft grade aluminum" and you know what it turned up? To a very small degree our friend here has a point yes the purity of the product is important and a factor. That is a fact of any standard of a composite material including steel. The standards for CPM-154 have specific tolerance for variations of the elements that make up that steel and if the product is not withing those tolerances it is not considered that type/class/grade of steel. Just to further note while I don't believe a aircraft bolt is thousands of dollars unless it is a bolt the size of my arm, which believably an aircraft could need, they will be significantly more expensive they probably do use a specific type of steel and they are also probably made with very specific and tight tolerance in the size, threading, and weight and in addition it is a very niche item where the suppliers have much more control over cost.
Click to expand...

"Dirty" steel was much more of an issue decades ago. In the past 10 years or more, many businesses are requiring certificates of compliance or conformance for their raw materials. These assurances are determined by competent third party businesses and it has really made the metals industry "clean" up their act so to speak. Its better to make product that conforms to the customers requirements then to have to sell it cheap to those that don't care. In any case, recycled aluminum is not likely being passed off as aircraft grade aluminum and aircraft aluminum is not likely being sold at recycled aluminum prices! Same goes for steel.
 
Planterz said:
I'm a wee bit skeptical about this "theory" about unclean steels. Dirty steel? What, did someone accidentally throw a beryllium copper wrench in the crucible? Did Timmy lose his ice cream cone in the pot on "bring your kid to work day"?

Or maybe he means that the steel isn't mixed homogeneously. If only there were a way. Perhaps they could melt the steel, shoot it through a high pressure nozzle, which would atomize the liquid to form a uniform powder. Then the powdered steel could be press-forged into ingots of homogeneous steel.

I should contact Crucible Industries about this new particle metalurgy process I just invented.
Click to expand...
You definitely should because by the sound of it the process as you describe will remedy the issue that some people say ruins their enjoyment of knives.
 
Gaston444 said:
How about this: To be considered "Aircraft Quality", all aircraft metal components must be analysed for purity of content. Impurities are a well-known production issue that affects the durability of the material.

Sorry to break it to you, but the metal in every one of your knives would not be acceptable for aircraft manufacturing because the manufacturing process is not checked for impurities: It is not aircraft-grade. Because knives are low-tech items, they are not a life or death matter for hundreds of passengers...

Does impurities in the metal affect edge performance? It obviously does, but since the parameters for verifying this fall outside the requirements of this particular industry (especially the custom knife industry, which is an even lower-tech small output variant of the mainstream knife industry), there is no way of really knowing "where" a particular knife or maker falls in a "Cleanliness spectrum" that is clearly outside the realm of this low-tech industry.

Ever wonder why some airplane bolts cost thousands of dollars each? You think a few of those made to the quality level of your knives would pass muster to hold an engine up?

There are a few clues that steel cleanliness is a significant issue: Among those, from what I observed, is that the worst edge performance I have ever seen was usually from expensive, small run US custom makers. Among the best I have ever seen was usually Aus-6 production knives from Seki City (in Al Mar knives notably), but I have even seen recently a low end 420 produce similar performance (From cheapo Master Cutlery no less!): These are not even high carbon stainless, but they are all from high volume factories... I did read that Japanese steel makers made special efforts to have the cleanest and finest grain steel possible, and I did see the superior results of this even on medium range Seki made knives. From whatever maker, I will gladly pay a huge premium to see "Seki", or even just "Japan", stamped on any knife... Only once, with an oddball low-end company called "Oryx", did the "Japan" stamp fail me.

The very first time I was ever made aware of this steel "cleanliness" issue was in a mid-80s yearly "Book of Knives" issue, one of those yearly soft cover books with a huge list of custom makers, where a sizeable article was devoted to single 19th century straight razor that had demonstrated an exceptional ability to hold an edge through an incredible amount of shaving, and this over a very long period of use. The author had an extensive spectrograph analysis done on this old razor, to see if anything was special about it. It turns out there was nothing special about it, except that the steel was so incredibly clean...

I remember a specific sentence in the article, which stayed with me ever since: "If only aircraft-quality aluminium was this clean!"

Just because something is outside the reach of a particular industry does not mean it does not exist. That big runs of cheap high volume steels could have a higher inherent performance than small runs of expensive low-output makers may seem counter-intuitive, but it is certainly not outside the realm of common sense.

Gaston
Click to expand...
That explains why surgical steel is the absolute best! It has to be extremely clean so they can use it for surgery. Not like that dirty CPM garbage.
 
Blacplastik said:
Didn't Japan just get busted for selling wrong labeled steel?
Not as trustworthy as you think.
Click to expand...

You can get a hand scanner for a few 1000$ that will tell you what steel you have in seconds, I would have though every knife manufacture would have one.

Would Rockwell testing would be of no use as the steel would be unhardened?
 
PoorUserName said:
You can get a hand scanner for a few 1000$ that will tell you what steel you have in seconds, I would have though every knife manufacture would have one.

Would Rockwell testing would be of no use as the steel would be unhardened?
Click to expand...
What's the technical name for that hand scanner? I see a lot of folks with bar stock that they're trying to find out what the composition is and some sort of handheld would really be the answer to their many questions!
 
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