- Joined
- Aug 28, 2017
- Messages
- 216
Cheap Knives: Why The 440A Craze?
- Thread starter Stargater
- Start date
- Status
Looks like the folks who make those don't list the prices . Pretty cool for sure; it's nearly a tricoder.
Called laser induced breakdown spectroscopy for anyone who's going out shopping today.
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2017
- Messages
- 216
The Guy in the video said he paid $30.000 for that version, But i suspect you can get cheaper versions.
I suppose the grinder spark test is a lot cheaper at free.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 28,935
Gastons comments about steal cleanness had nothing to do with the existance or importance of the issue at all. It was just another baseless attempt at bashing cpm steels.
There are a number of ways to determine the chemical make-up of any steel. Most are terribly inconvenient, and/or relatively expensive for civilian knife collectors and users(military has more options). Clean steel just has fewer impurities. Not NONE, but fewer, and less likely to seriously contaminate the product. A number of places in the world have access to large deposits of fairly clean iron. Japan and Sweden, notably. The Samurai sword of legend started life as a rough ingot of relatively clean steel. The Sandvik alloys are noted for their cleanliness.
As an aside, it's worth noting that "Damascus steel" FROM Damascus, was not the pattern welded steel we know today as 'damascus', and probably wasn't very clean, as we consider it today. For the time, tho, it was it was the technical equivalent of today's powder-steel alloys. It is technically wootz, created by filling(relatively) a ceramic pot with powdered iron and a bit of charcoal. Just before going into the fire, a piece of paper, or some dry wood shavings were put in and the pot was sealed. Then it was put in a fire-pit, and when the temperature inside reached the ignition point, the paper or wood combusted, using up the free oxygen in the pot, and the melt began. The iron absorbed carbon from the charcoal, forming steel, and the oxygen-free environment prevented oxide formation. Judicious hammering of the lumpy ingot created some of the most beautiful and tough cutlery the world has ever known.
Most of us will never know for sure just exactly what the chemical makeup is of the steels in any of our knives. Not that it really matters all that much. Most likely none of us are the kind of user who will actually use that last 10 or 15 percent of a particular knife's capabilities. If you are, good on ya, tho I might say that if you use a knife THAT hard, there may be better tools for the job. It just doesn't matter that much for the rest of us. WHAT impurities there MIGHT be in any given sample of any given alloy are likely not going to rear their ugly heads to bite you when you're carving your Thanksgiving turkey or ham. If, however, you happened to be discussing a jet engine turbine blade, or a spring under someone's family car, it's more than likely the alloy was carefully chosen, and adheres to relatively strict quality control oversight. The steel industry today can't afford to screw up too bad, there's too much competition.
As an aside, it's worth noting that "Damascus steel" FROM Damascus, was not the pattern welded steel we know today as 'damascus', and probably wasn't very clean, as we consider it today. For the time, tho, it was it was the technical equivalent of today's powder-steel alloys. It is technically wootz, created by filling(relatively) a ceramic pot with powdered iron and a bit of charcoal. Just before going into the fire, a piece of paper, or some dry wood shavings were put in and the pot was sealed. Then it was put in a fire-pit, and when the temperature inside reached the ignition point, the paper or wood combusted, using up the free oxygen in the pot, and the melt began. The iron absorbed carbon from the charcoal, forming steel, and the oxygen-free environment prevented oxide formation. Judicious hammering of the lumpy ingot created some of the most beautiful and tough cutlery the world has ever known.
Most of us will never know for sure just exactly what the chemical makeup is of the steels in any of our knives. Not that it really matters all that much. Most likely none of us are the kind of user who will actually use that last 10 or 15 percent of a particular knife's capabilities. If you are, good on ya, tho I might say that if you use a knife THAT hard, there may be better tools for the job. It just doesn't matter that much for the rest of us. WHAT impurities there MIGHT be in any given sample of any given alloy are likely not going to rear their ugly heads to bite you when you're carving your Thanksgiving turkey or ham. If, however, you happened to be discussing a jet engine turbine blade, or a spring under someone's family car, it's more than likely the alloy was carefully chosen, and adheres to relatively strict quality control oversight. The steel industry today can't afford to screw up too bad, there's too much competition.
Yes, just like the baseless crushing a few days ago of a $350 GSO-10 in CPM 3V by a $39, used "Master Cutlery" special in.... 420J...
Both were at 20dps, and yes, the GSO-10 design was a noticeably better chopper... 30 chops here into this quite hard wood:
The one small spot in apex bending on the Master (the one area forward just under the third slot) was due to hitting too far forward, and unwittingly twisting a large piece out rather than pulling the blade out: There was no twisting at all on the GSO-10...
A direct comparison of the actual strike areas:
Micro-bending was all but undetectable on the Master Cutlery...
This has more to do with CPM steel than with the fact one is a high volume maker of low-end stainless, while the other is a semi-custom type thing, but the disparity in performance nicely illustrates that paying for "high end" is not the home run most assume it to be...
Gaston
By the way, the notion that these low-end "Rambo" Master or United Cutlery types are weakly built wall hangers, with no beefy tang and just a screw holding a thin rat tail inside the handle, is information pretty much on the same level as the assumption that CPM steels will necessarily blow away low-end Chinese 420J... There is no screw at all inside either the Master or United Cutlery version, and they are as strong (but not as waterproof in the Master's case) as any of the many customs I have seen and owned, including the original Jimmy Liles...
We are just swimming in reliable information out there...
G.
Standard78
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2015
- Messages
- 4,537
Baseless crushing?Yes, just like the baseless crushing a few days ago of a $350 GSO-10 in CPM 3V by a $39, used "Master Cutlery" special in.... 420J...
Both were at 20dps, and yes, the GSO-10 design was a noticeably better chopper... 30 chops here into this quite hard wood:
The one small spot in apex bending on the Master (the one area forward just under the third slot) was due to hitting too far forward, and unwittingly twisting a large piece out rather than pulling the blade out: There was no twisting at all on the GSO-10...
A direct comparison of the actual strike areas:
Micro-bending was all but undetectable on the Master Cutlery...
This has more to do with CPM steel than with the fact one is a high volume maker of low-end stainless, while the other is a semi-custom type thing, but the disparity in performance nicely illustrates that paying for "high end" is not the home run most assume it to be...
Gaston
By the way, the notion that these low-end "Rambo" Master or United Cutlery types are weakly built wall hangers, with no beefy tang and just a screw holding a thin rat tail inside the handle, is information pretty much on the same level as the assumption that CPM steels will necessarily blow away low-end Chinese 420J... There is no screw at all inside either the Master or United Cutlery version, and they are as strong (but not as waterproof in the Master's case) as any of the many customs I have seen and owned, including the original Jimmy Liles...
We are just swimming in reliable information out there...
G.
It looks like the GSO 10 came out ahead in this ridiculous comparison.
Instead of doing a laughable chopping competition, I’d like to see you do an abrasive cut test and a flex test between these two knife steels but I bet you would purposefully alter the results to benefit your anti-CPM agenda.
On a side note... you should really learn how to swing a knife. You should’ve been more than halfway through that branch with 30 swings.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2012
- Messages
- 28,935
So you admit to faulty technique but the fault is with the cpm? With the chopping and wood work I've done with 3v I've never experienced what you claim.Yes, just like the baseless crushing a few days ago of a $350 GSO-10 in CPM 3V by a $39, used "Master Cutlery" special in.... 420J...
Both were at 20dps, and yes, the GSO-10 design was a noticeably better chopper... 30 chops here into this quite hard wood:
The one small spot in apex bending on the Master (the one area forward just under the third slot) was due to hitting too far forward, and unwittingly twisting a large piece out rather than pulling the blade out: There was no twisting at all on the GSO-10...
A direct comparison of the actual strike areas:
Micro-bending was all but undetectable on the Master Cutlery...
This has more to do with CPM steel than with the fact one is a high volume maker of low-end stainless, while the other is a semi-custom type thing, but the disparity in performance nicely illustrates that paying for "high end" is not the home run most assume it to be...
Gaston
By the way, the notion that these low-end "Rambo" Master or United Cutlery types are weakly built wall hangers, with no beefy tang and just a screw holding a thin rat tail inside the handle, is information pretty much on the same level as the assumption that CPM steels will necessarily blow away low-end Chinese 420J... There is no screw at all inside either the Master or United Cutlery version, and they are as strong (but not as waterproof in the Master's case) as any of the many customs I have seen and owned, including the original Jimmy Liles...
We are just swimming in reliable information out there...
G.
And sorry no, those United cutlery fantasy wallhangers are garbage.
Back to the drawing board gaston. Can't wait to see what you come up with next.
P.s. if chopping is your main use for a knife they make these things called axes.....
Airplane bolts that connect the engine to the wing are $2-3000, EACH, and may go much higher for some of those on the spars, which can go upwards of 6 inches in diameter or more.
Just to show those who claim there are no such things as bolts costing in the thousands...
Even better are the fan blades: The most expensive ones are apparently for the Airbus 380, made of Titanium, and they are $ 160 000 for a single blade of about 6.2 ft. in length by 20 inches at their widest...
As to judging my rate of progress on wood you haven't seen, I'm really impressed by your skills. Sincerely. Lots of experience on display in this comment.
This particular GSO-10 is 21 ounces, with a blade 1/4" wider than the Master Cutlery knife, and a much heavier spear shaped drop point that it is almost impossible to get to stick in wood. This is actually a bad feature, because it means it is easier to lay the knife down on the ground where the edge will more likely get damaged. It won't hold still for hands free cutting either... The Master Cutlery is sharply pointed and 16 ounces, with a Full Flat Grind and a slightly thicker edge: Basic physics would say it should be far behind, yet it did about 70% as well. It definitely matches or beat the CS Trailmaster...
There is no anti CPM agenda: People here don't chop wood with their folders, which is why they don't see the apex structure can't take that particular use.
Flex test?! Apparently cutting has something to do with flexing a 3/16"-1/4" slab of steel. Let's keep that precious information in mind...
Gaston
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2017
- Messages
- 3,351
G
Gaston444
I questioned the thousands remark and still do as you provide no proof and its not like I can go to buildmyownairplane.com and find and order these parts to get a price quote. I do admit that the larger and more precisely manufactured the bolt the higher I do expect the cost to be. I know very well about the cost of an airplane but with something like that much of the cost goes into the special labor and design far more than for materials. Considering the amount of materials and how further specialized some components are, ie the instruments, this doesn't leave as much room for the remaining materials to be as costly making the claims of 2-3k per bolt questionable. We should drop the aircraft subject as it has been beaten to death that the comparison to anything aircraft related serves no purpose other than to prove you seem to enjoy pulling "facts" from place the sun does not shine.
I am usually willing to give people lots of room for their opinions and testing to show results but you contend that a proven superior steel is not superior in your hands... Are you some sort of wizard alchemist who changes the structure of steals with your magic touch rending pot steel into super steel and super steel into pot steel? What happens when you touch them a 2nd time do they revert back?
I am usually willing to give people lots of room for their opinions and testing to show results but you contend that a proven superior steel is not superior in your hands... Are you some sort of wizard alchemist who changes the structure of steals with your magic touch rending pot steel into super steel and super steel into pot steel? What happens when you touch them a 2nd time do they revert back?
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2005
- Messages
- 19,385
They do make axes and they are meant for chopping by design. But what are all of these beastly fixed blade knives for other than chopping or a wall hanger? Gaston likes to chop with big knives and he has formed impressions based on his use. That's more than I can say relative to chopping with a knife.... it just doesn't come up very often in normal life to matter all that much to me. But if I did chop with something other than a machete type blade, it would trouble me if the edges are chipped or seriously rolled just from chopping wood.
PirateSeulb: I think what Gaston is saying about the CPM steels (in general) is that they don't do appreciably better chopping than more traditional carbon steels and come at a much higher price tag. 3V does seem to work pretty well on a chopping blade. It's certainly fashionable to buy the higher end steels these days if you are into blades. I take the damage to the edges discussed by Gaston to be just his experience. He tries to make it more scientific by varying the steels and the edge angles to see how they do for him. Why? I assume he enjoys it.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2017
- Messages
- 3,351
22-rimfire
I am no expert on steels but I was under the impression that 3V was actually a good chopper and from what I know of 420J my expectations of the two would be that the 420J would roll instead of chip but would begin to roll and lose effectiveness before the 3V which I would expect more rolling than chipping but I would expect it to be more susceptible to chipping than the 420J. I am not a steel snob but I feel like he it stubbornly reporting things as fact while not accepting his limited experience and knowledge. I will admit his experience appears to surpass mine his knowledge I question given the "facts" he likes to spew.- Joined
- Aug 28, 2017
- Messages
- 216
A video is worth a thousand photo`s
- Joined
- Oct 28, 2017
- Messages
- 4,464
My thoughts on 'chopping' with a folder:
a) If that is what you want to do, knock yourself out. But don't expect most people to care.
b) I cannot think of a single survival scenario that would require me to 'chop' with a folder. If I wanted green boughs for a shelter, I would utilise the cutting ability of a folder, to notch the boughs. With a little bit of skill this is far less labour intensive than hacking away at it, and does not risk damaging the knife.
c) Similarly, for fire wood, I see no use for 'chopping' with a folder, none whatsoever. Another Canadian, Mors Kochanski, seems to have got along just fine without using a knife to chop at wood; I tend to think that his is a good approach.
And as somebody said above, why not just use a bloody axe?
a) If that is what you want to do, knock yourself out. But don't expect most people to care.
b) I cannot think of a single survival scenario that would require me to 'chop' with a folder. If I wanted green boughs for a shelter, I would utilise the cutting ability of a folder, to notch the boughs. With a little bit of skill this is far less labour intensive than hacking away at it, and does not risk damaging the knife.
c) Similarly, for fire wood, I see no use for 'chopping' with a folder, none whatsoever. Another Canadian, Mors Kochanski, seems to have got along just fine without using a knife to chop at wood; I tend to think that his is a good approach.
And as somebody said above, why not just use a bloody axe?
No, they are doing the very same thing consistently across hundreds of tests, and have for years.
These CPM steels are not "proven" better. Most users don't use large knives to chop wood with any regularity (about 90% of the steel talk is really about folders), and, subsequently, they also never use the nail test after chopping, but the paper test or other similar nonsense.
If I rubbed my nail along their CPM steel choppers, after they chopped at or under 20 dps, you would see on their knives the exact same thing you see in my pictures. Why? Do you think the laws of physics change because they claim it does? Or that I deliberately bend the apex on my CPM knives?
Users typically claim more recent, more expensive steels work better than the older cheaper steels. Is this really how it would always turn out, in reality?
Do you think this is serious industry about serious needs? This is what Jeff Randall had to say about it: "In all honesty, the knife industry is about 99 percent bullshit. We sell knives every day to people who will never use them. Knife buying is more of a want than a need."
So we have to take this industry's word that expensive newer steel always holds an edge better than the decades old cheap stuff: I'm totally convinced!
To get back to my claims, usually no one says they have used the nail edge rubbing test after chopping. To do so would entail having to lie about the result, so of course it feels better not to mention it...
Tell you what: Post close-up pictures of big CPM knife edges, around 20 dps or less, after chopping into wood 20 times, and write below a caption that says you rubbed the nail away from the edge, hard enough to really touch the apex, and none of it ever stayed on either sides. That will be entertaining to watch, if nothing else.
Gaston
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2009
- Messages
- 11,712
Why would you use 20 dps or less for a chopper? I would go with at least 25dps and ideally a convex edge. You need the most steel possible behind that edge to support it! Especially for chopping at hardwood.
You need to make your testing realistic. I could baton my straight razor into a piece of seasoned oak and then say it sucks at edge retention, but is that at all a realistic test of a shaving edge?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2017
- Messages
- 216
Most Axe`s and Machetes use a softer steel so if you hit a stone it bends instead of shattering and can usually be re-straightened.
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2017
- Messages
- 3,351
G
Gaston444
I agree with the Jeff Randall quote mostly and as I said to
22-rimfire
I am no steel snob but I do feel your testing is flawed or inaccurate. You are not the first or only to test these steels as a chopper however I will add that what angle was put on them and the hardness the steels were taken to would have a major impact on the results.
22-rimfire
I am no steel snob but I do feel your testing is flawed or inaccurate. You are not the first or only to test these steels as a chopper however I will add that what angle was put on them and the hardness the steels were taken to would have a major impact on the results.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2002
- Messages
- 7,264
I can imagine that the early pioneers who used their knives were pretty worried about an edge rolling on a micro level. When they first see it happen, I'm certain they look at the knife and say "POS!!!!!11!!" and toss it away after getting a finger nail scraping.
Seriously,..most people use a knife to slice and an AXE to chop. When you use the wrong tool for the job, there is ALWAYS a compromise. Some do it better than others, but a compromise nonetheless. Kindof like getting pissed off at a knife that doesn't perform like a screwdriver or a hammer.
Yeah, you can do it..with consequences. If you chop with a knife, expect that at some point,..you will need to resharpen it. This is for all steels regardless of grade, purity and or heat treat. If you baton a knife, expect that the consequence could be that you will have a two piece knife (yay?) due to some manufacturing defect.
As for expensive airplane bolts and parts. They can exist for several reasons.
1) Quantity ordered
2) type of material used for the parts (just about every material made)
3) Specs of parts and difficulty in the manufacture of the parts ( pretty broad list of subcategories here )
4) You can't pull over on a damn cloud to change out a part, so it needs to be right. Ace Hardware simply does not have the right parts.
Combine all these factors and it's not too difficult to come up with parts, even bolts that can be thousands of dollars each. I have a machinist friend that machines turbines that are 4-6ft in diameter. The forged piece to start can be $100,000+. IIRC, he was saying one was around 200k before it was machined.
Take some of the reviews with a grain of salt. The data being provided is from an unreliable source using questionable methodologies with unknown variables.
Seriously,..most people use a knife to slice and an AXE to chop. When you use the wrong tool for the job, there is ALWAYS a compromise. Some do it better than others, but a compromise nonetheless. Kindof like getting pissed off at a knife that doesn't perform like a screwdriver or a hammer.
Yeah, you can do it..with consequences. If you chop with a knife, expect that at some point,..you will need to resharpen it. This is for all steels regardless of grade, purity and or heat treat. If you baton a knife, expect that the consequence could be that you will have a two piece knife (yay?) due to some manufacturing defect.
As for expensive airplane bolts and parts. They can exist for several reasons.
1) Quantity ordered
2) type of material used for the parts (just about every material made)
3) Specs of parts and difficulty in the manufacture of the parts ( pretty broad list of subcategories here )
4) You can't pull over on a damn cloud to change out a part, so it needs to be right. Ace Hardware simply does not have the right parts.
Combine all these factors and it's not too difficult to come up with parts, even bolts that can be thousands of dollars each. I have a machinist friend that machines turbines that are 4-6ft in diameter. The forged piece to start can be $100,000+. IIRC, he was saying one was around 200k before it was machined.
Take some of the reviews with a grain of salt. The data being provided is from an unreliable source using questionable methodologies with unknown variables.
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2003
- Messages
- 20,194
I have not read all this thread, nor do I wish to do so. When I try, it's hard to figure out what is going on.
People have been chopping with khukuris for a good bit of time. They are generally made of steel closer to that used for axes - low alloy, lower carbon that most knives, like 5160.
I have some more "modern" steels in knives, but I elect not to chop with them, saving that for tools optimized to chop by design, construction, and material.
Oh well.
People have been chopping with khukuris for a good bit of time. They are generally made of steel closer to that used for axes - low alloy, lower carbon that most knives, like 5160.
I have some more "modern" steels in knives, but I elect not to chop with them, saving that for tools optimized to chop by design, construction, and material.
Oh well.
- Status