Chinese quality and offerings better than North American?

[Hackenslash]

When we talk about the new "quality" Chinese knife industry, we're referring to a specific genre of manufacturer. Reate, Kizer, Stedemon, CKF (yes, made in China, assembled in Russia)...maybe even some of the new players like WE or Realsteel...probably a few others that are slipping my mind.

Many posters in this thread are making nebulous claims about Chinese knives lacking proper heat treat or being made of materials other than those claimed, etc, etc, ad nauseum. I'd be curious which particular offerings from the companies in question they have first hand experience with to support such a claim?

Go ahead and buy the knives you like but please stop building straw man arguments to support your personal decisions.

 

[brancron]

I just did some Google searching for both reate and kizer, and I every single knife I saw from both companies were what I consider gaudy and ugly.
So based on that alone I feel like they're just not companies that I'll ever like.
Before they just costed more than I'd ever pay for Chinese knives, but now I have a legitimate reason not to like them.
So I guess that now I can just forget about where there made.

Your post history pins you as a fan of traditionals, and there's nothing wrong with that. But judged by modern standards, to call everything Kizer puts out "gaudy" seems a bit crazy. Some random examples:

 

[brancron]

It's not ethnocentrism to want to support more labor-friendly business practices.

What do you know about the conditions for the employees at Reate, Kizer, WE Knives, Rike, Stedemon, etc.? Please elaborate.

 

[marcinek]

I usually find almost all factory fixed blade knives below par because of overly thick edge geometry, including many US brands...


The SOG Chinese made knives steel is hard but not properly tempered, so it holds an edge but may shatter on impact. Or it will bend easily, as in the SOG "Fixation Dagger", which bent very easily in one video, because of not being fully hardened... They truly don't care.

It's not that " China" doesn't care. It's that the customers buying all those SOGs don't care.

Just like, as you claim, all those customers buying American factory made knives don't care...or at least don't have standards as sophisticated as you.

Blaming "China" or some vast evil communist scheme is silly. What is happening is capitalism, pure and simple.

 

[marcinek]

What do you know about the conditions for the employees at Reate, Kizer, WE Knives, Rike, Stedemon, etc.? Please elaborate.

It's China! That's all you need to know!

 

[Muet d'hiver]

What about designers like Liong Mah and Todd Begg who trust chinese makers like Reate?

 

[Knave]

What do you know about the conditions for the employees at Reate, Kizer, WE Knives, Rike, Stedemon, etc.? Please elaborate.

Nothing at all, actually. I suppose I should clarify that I choose to support American manufacturing when reasonably possible. I'm not trying to denigrate the Chinese. It may be that the high-end Chinese knife manufacturers treat their employees well and pay decent wages. If so, that's great. I simply don't like the mass outsourcing we've seen over the last 20 to 30 years. It's gutted American manufacturing. Therefore, I'd rather buy from companies that make knives in America. It's not just the Chinese companies that I typically avoid, either. While I like many of Lionsteel's and Boker's designs, I'd still rather buy American.

 

[Etna]

When we talk about the new "quality" Chinese knife industry, we're referring to a specific genre of manufacturer. Reate, Kizer, Stedemon, CKF (yes, made in China, assembled in Russia)...maybe even some of the new players like WE or Realsteel...probably a few others that are slipping my mind.

The budget segment has also been China's to command. Companies like SanRenMu and Enlan are selling quality knives using the same steel type (typically 8cr13mov) for way lesser than popular Western brands like CRKT, Kershaw, Schrade and S&W. Little wonder that such brands are now sourcing their entire lineup from Chinese factories to compete on price.

Many posters in this thread are making nebulous claims about Chinese knives lacking proper heat treat or being made of materials other than those claimed, etc, etc, ad nauseum. I'd be curious which particular offerings from the companies in question they have first hand experience with to support such a claim?

Go ahead and buy the knives you like but please stop building straw man arguments to support your personal decisions.

For a well known brand, SanRenMu is actually guilty of this in recent years. They have traditionally been using 8cr13mov until a couple of years ago where they supposedly started using 12c27 instead for their newer models (mostly the twin detent, non-locking models). And nobody, not even the resellers, were aware of the change until much later. In fact, if you were to look on the Bay or on various chinese C2C portals, you can find tons of individual sellers of SanRenMu knives listing the same models with differing steel type.

 

[TimmyJ]

I find it's best to let the product speak for itself. I can understand not wanting to support a company with poor labor practices, sub-par materials or questionable morals and ethics, but to assume that a company runs a certain way or produces a crap product based on its geographic location seems naive to me.

 

[jazub]

LOL. How naïve is it to not recognize that international trade and politics are inextricably intertwined EVERYWHERE? Those that blithely dismiss that there is a larger and overarching political dimension to this topic, just because of their own purchase history "proving" otherwise, are delusional.

EXACTLY.

And to the op, your comment about North American manufacturers not even trying is baffling. USA manufacturers INVENTED the product you enjoy. Chinese companies saw a market opportunity and, by the grace of USA outsourcers who "demand higher quality" (as fanboys say), were trained as to what production standards this market would accept. Then came the knockoffs. The obvious evolution: these Chinese companies with shiny new machinery feeding every fad and whim preference in the market, charging obscene prices for products with unverifiable materials and no warranties.

I would never consciously feed that cycle, when given a choice. But to each his own. Enjoy your knives.

 

[FullMetalJackass]

C'mon man ! The 1911 one of the most American things in existence next to the buck 110 and mountain dew and you got one from China 😁😁😁😁
What would J M Browning say ( actually he'd probably say you shoulda got got it from Belgium )
I can understand getting something that's a helluva deal just to try a platform out, if that's the Case.

I got half a dozen of them and I got this norc for free when buying bulk ammo
For a gun that worth about $250, it is much better than some "American made" mid range 1911 costing around $1000.

I prefer my Ed Brown for sure, but sometimes it's nice to step off the Ferrari and enjoy the F150

I'm honestly really curious about the quality of Kizer.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I got half a dozen of them and I got this norc for free when buying bulk ammo
For a gun that worth about $250, it is much better than some "American made" mid range 1911 costing around $1000.

I prefer my Ed Brown for sure, but sometimes it's nice to step off the Ferrari and enjoy the F150

I'm honestly really curious about the quality of Kizer.

Nothing wrong with a free gun, and even if you had paid 250$ for it it'd still make a great beater gun.

 

[Hickory n steel]

Your post history pins you as a fan of traditionals, and there's nothing wrong with that. But judged by modern standards, to call everything Kizer puts out "gaudy" seems a bit crazy. Some random examples:

I'm sorta getting into traditionals, but mostly I just like my knives plain and simple . I don't prefer traditionals over one hand openers, but I think that they've gon as far as I need them to.
I don't like flippers, I prefer a folder with a pocket clip to be lightweight, and I'm a lefty so I prefer lockbacks.
After looking at both companies, I noticed that I didn't like anything they make.

 

[clearkevin]

I got half a dozen of them and I got this norc for free when buying bulk ammo
For a gun that worth about $250, it is much better than some "American made" mid range 1911 costing around $1000.

I prefer my Ed Brown for sure, but sometimes it's nice to step off the Ferrari and enjoy the F150

I'm honestly really curious about the quality of Kizer.

I love my T97 I have done the Flat top upgrade and have seriously thought about a 1911 from norinco think I may go with a 9mm

 

[Hackenslash]

For a well known brand, SanRenMu is actually guilty of this in recent years. They have traditionally been using 8cr13mov until a couple of years ago where they supposedly started using 12c27 instead for their newer models (mostly the twin detent, non-locking models). And nobody, not even the resellers, were aware of the change until much later. In fact, if you were to look on the Bay or on various chinese C2C portals, you can find tons of individual sellers of SanRenMu knives listing the same models with differing steel type.

Again, we're not talking about the SanRenMu quality level of knife. We're talking about the new breed of high quality, high value knives coming from China. It's been long known that SanRenMu has some seriously shady roots stemming from the likely rip-off of the Axis Lock to the fake "8Cr13MoV/440" issues that Spyderco had with an "un-named" Chinese manufacturer. SanRenMu might be considered High Value, but they're miles behind the quality of the brands being discussed here.

 

[stonproject]

I would have to say that China is making some great knives right know but when I buy a knife I am buying almost as much for CS and what the company represents.
I can get on the phone right now call Benchmade and have them send me a free new clip for my 710. Probably arrive in less than 4 days.
Spyderco, I sent in PM 2 because it was off center (anal I know) and had it back in less than 10 business days for the cost of $13 including shipping.
I have seen ZT over and over go out of their way for their customers.
CRK, I think just the name alone speaks for itself.
Busse, break your knife, get a free one or at least store credit of equal value, no questions asked.
As far as I know Reate/Kizer (insert foreign company name here) dont offer that level of service.
Also for the price of many higher priced Chinese made knives I can pretty easily get a midtech from amazing custom makers at the same price.
Just my .02 opinion, Cheers

I can tell you kizers CS is better than spydercos in my experience and on par with benchmades and zt CS

 

[Gaston444]

I got half a dozen of them and I got this norc for free when buying bulk ammo
For a gun that worth about $250, it is much better than some "American made" mid range 1911 costing around $1000.

.

Well did you get a spare gun, and tested it by putting 5 to 10 000 rounds through it?

I remember in the early 90s when every gun magazine cover was full of products from Taurus (from Brazil), usually some kind of knock-off or interpretation of other gun maker's designs... Everyone was just gushing praise on them.

But one day I came across a long-term endurance test of a Taurus that was the usual Beretta 92 clone, and let me tell you it was sobering... After a few hundred rounds the firing pin started to stick, and the problem persisted throughout, as the metal was deformed by use. Much cleaning was required to even keep the gun working...: Surface hardness has to be harmonized from one part to another for things to "wear in" correctly, including firing pins...

The barrel's rifling was completely burned out in about 3-5000 rounds, ruining accuracy, and after that debacle several major essential parts started to break and need replacement for the test to go on... One reader even wrote a letter joking about the persisting positive tone of the review in the face of all these failures...

At that time we had seen some "wondernines", including the Glock 17, go through 50 000 rounds without any problems or replacements parts... Sure some brand-name revolvers could only do 10-15 000 rounds before serious problems occurred, but that was a not a materials or quality issue: They were as good as the basic design allowed...

For these kinds of things, basically the only thing you have to go on is your faith that the makers are doing their absolute best, with the best available knowledge, and that out of respect for their client they are doing things right that most clients would never have a way of verifying... It is the "doing the right thing when no one is looking" kind of thing.

A Chinese item heavily supervised by a reputable maker is not quite the same thing as a purely Chinese item.

I for one remember the "Blackie Collins" cordura sheaths offered by Gerber for their Mark IIs and Mark Is: I have today a similar Guardian II sheath and the side panels under the nylon are correctly done in hard plastic. However, back in the 90s, both my Gerber Mark I and Mark II "Blackie Collins" sheaths had side panels made in cardboard...: They turned into mush when touching water... It seems some are, some are not. Cardboard Gerber sheaths, I'm not making this up... Oh and the more recent (post 2000) nylon sheath for the Walther "P99" Applegate Fairbairn-style (single edge version of the dagger), the one with a shoulder harness and the Velcro cross-guard strap? Well that was like a reminiscence of the old days too: You guessed it, under the nylon was hiding cardboard...

It's not a matter of what they can do or cannot do: It's a matter of their attitude...

Gaston

 

[GatorFlash1]

I don't care about who makes my knife but I am curious to know what country will make our future knives with a laser blade, adjustable length, and power setting. Folder or fixed and type of steel won't matter. Sharpening will be a thing of the past. Plain, serrated, or combo edge will all be available on the same laser knife. Laser knives will take any blade shape. Probably the only difference will be in the scales. Surgeons in hospitals are already using laser knives for surgery.

 

[brancron]

It's not a matter of what they can do or cannot do: It's a matter of their attitude...

Can you stop talking about the "attitude" of 1.4 billion people at once? I can no longer tolerate your racist, moronic comments. You have absolutely no idea what the people at Reate, Kizer, Stedemon, WE Knives, Rike, etc. are like. I certainly know what you're like, though; you've made that clear.

 

[FullMetalJackass]

Well did you get a spare gun, and tested it by putting 5 to 10 000 rounds through it?

I remember in the early 90s when every gun magazine cover was full of products from Taurus (from Brazil), usually some kind of knock-off or interpretation of other gun maker's designs... Everyone was just gushing praise on them.

But one day I came across a long-term endurance test of a Taurus that was the usual Beretta 92 clone, and let me tell you it was sobering... After a few hundred rounds the firing pin started to stick, and the problem persisted throughout, as the metal was deformed by use. Much cleaning was required to even keep the gun working...: Surface hardness has to be harmonized from one part to another for things to "wear in" correctly, including firing pins...

The barrel's rifling was completely burned out in about 3-5000 rounds, ruining accuracy, and after that debacle several major essential parts started to break and need replacement for the test to go on... One reader even wrote a letter joking about the persisting positive tone of the review in the face of all these failures...

At that time we had seen some "wondernines", including the Glock 17, go through 50 000 rounds without any problems or replacements parts... Sure some brand-name revolvers could only do 10-15 000 rounds before serious problems occurred, but that was a not a materials or quality issue: They were as good as the basic design allowed...

For these kinds of things, basically the only thing you have to go on is your faith that the makers are doing their absolute best, with the best available knowledge, and that out of respect for their client they are doing things right that most clients would never have a way of verifying... It is the "doing the right thing when no one is looking" kind of thing.

A Chinese item heavily supervised by a reputable maker is not quite the same thing as a purely Chinese item.

I for one remember the "Blackie Collins" cordura sheaths offered by Gerber for their Mark IIs and Mark Is: I have today a similar Guardian II sheath and the side panels under the nylon are correctly done in hard plastic. However, back in the 90s, both my Gerber Mark I and Mark II "Blackie Collins" sheaths had side panels made in cardboard...: They turned into mush when touching water... It seems some are, some are not. Cardboard Gerber sheaths, I'm not making this up... Oh and the more recent (post 2000) nylon sheath for the Walther "P99" Applegate Fairbairn-style (single edge version of the dagger), the one with a shoulder harness and the Velcro cross-guard strap? Well that was like a reminiscence of the old days too: You guessed it, under the nylon was hiding cardboard...

It's not a matter of what they can do or cannot do: It's a matter of their attitude...

Gaston

I'll never buy a Taurus product, but Norc hardware does the job really good, despite its crude finish that I had the pleasure to polish up. I put several thousand rds down the pipe, nothing to worry about. FYI, the Ed Brown is much more finicky with ammo than the Norc, just try to shoot small primer Blazer in a Brown and enjoy the slide jamming... Norc ate everything, including my hot loads.

Anyway you're derailing the topic, and I don't get the "attitude" thing. I don't see why China can't produce high end stuff, they got manpower AND materials AND knowledge. Don't forget they invented gunpowder... What can they say about our "attitude" then?