Chinese Shirogorov clone

[craytab]

Hey crabby ! It's YOU that hurts the hobby by being exclusive and tiny tent . It's perfectly valid to love and collect replicas that are obviously fake . Just like a fine art print of a Rembrandt does not hurt art collecting-in fact it HELPS !

Name calling and talking about me personally is something I am going to ask you to stop doing. It is against the rules and detracts from the discourse we could be having on this subject.

It is not valid to support counterfeiting. That is not the opinion of this forum. If you think that then you disagree with the community here.

 

[DocJD]

Welp, if you support counterfeiting you hurt this hobby. That is the opinion of this forum. Again, deal with it.

Hey crabby ! Who died and left YOU as the " voice of the forum" ??? We are ALL " the forum" . That's what a forum means ! Deal with it .

 

[Ronin_Jedi]

I got this in the mail today, and I thought I would share with the good folks here. I used the word clone instead of counterfeit because there are no logos anywhere on the knife and the seller was not trying to pass it off as a real Shirogorov. I'll share the pics first and then my first impressions.

Very nice looking out of the box. Titanium handles and spacer, with ceramic ball bearings pivot. D2 steel.

OK, so this thread went off track, discussing ethics and possible legalities, and not the knife itself.

For the record, I don't buy/use counterfeits, labeled as such or "inferred" in their marketing. Example: Had a chance to buy a super nice Rolex copy. Solid quality and hefty in weight like the real deal. I passed as it was labeled "Rolex".

I've bought genuine ZT's and other knives (and other products), and will continue doing so.

So my questions to you are:

A) Given the many months that have passed since your initial posting, what is your opinion of the knife and quality of build?

B) Assuming "A" is favorable, have you tried any of their other knives, clone/copy or not? If so, what is your opinion?

C). Who made it and can you provide a link to website?

Best

Sent from my Sero 7 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[DocJD]

I don't know that you broke any rules, but it's similar to strolling into a Rolex forum and start chatting about your knock off Rolex..

Not really the intention of the forum to discuss such "pieces"

Maybe the forum needs to expand it's scope . Ignoring a problem does not make it disappear . Attacking members does not help anything !

 

[DocJD]

Name calling and talking about me personally is something I am going to ask you to stop doing. It is against the rules and detracts from the discourse we could be having on this subject.

It is not valid to support counterfeiting. That is not the opinion of this forum. If you think that then you disagree with the community here.

Crabby - YOU STARTED THIS ! You made it personal 1st . You called names and attacked ME . I'm just trying to defend from your terror tactics which seek to exclude and silence any disagreement with YOU !

 

[DocJD]

Agreed, there lies the biggest problem with BF I've witnessed time and time again over the years. On this forum, you get singled out and stoned by the mob if you do not fall in line with the establishment's thinking/value/preferences etc...

I normally don't comment on these type of threads because so many people get bend out of shape about "China", "buy American", "clones" whatever... I categorize these type of people into the innocently uninformed, the naive and hard headed ignorant bunch.

The truth is, ideas and the imitation and copying of ideas is what propels the human civilization forward. Look at our history, every time man invents something new, others copy it, adapt it, enhance it, refine it, and that's what technological progress is all about. Be it mathematics, science, technology, design, what have you:

Who invented the wheel? Probably before the existence of city states.

Should Albert Einstein or any other scientist or mathematician get paid every time their formula for math or chemistry or physics gets used in the development of something new?

The famous Viking sword marked Wulfbert, known for it's quality was widely copied and forged during the Viking age.

Chinese invented gun powder and the first gun powder based weapons, western countries refined the gun powdered weaponry and used it to brutalize and colonize much of China and other states during the 1800's. Should the Chinese bitch and moan and get financial compensation for the western powers' use of their invention to subjugate their people?

The 1911 pistol invented by Browning and initially made by Colt is now manufactured by so many countries and companies. Now how many of you guys here own 1911 pistols that's not a Colt, if you do you're then a hypocrite.

The same thing can be said for Glock pistols (if you own a polymer pistol other than a Glock, that make you a hypocrite also) and countless other items/technology.

I understand the modern copy rights and patents, even by law those patents/copy rights expires after a set amount of years. One reason is to give the inventor proper financial reimbursement for their invention, another is to allow the invention to be available to all to reduce cost and benefit all man.

Furthermore, "buying American" does nothing for this country's economics and it can not reverse the tide of history. American has not been a manufacturing hub for many decades simply because of higher labor cost and environmental/labor/tax laws.

"Buying American" is a choice some makes, just as "buying Chinese" is the choice others do. We should not condemn anyone for how they spent their money and enforce our own values on them.

Thanks very much for jumping in here . Feels like I'm being mobbed sometimes . Seems like a purposeful tactic to get a thread closed if certain members don't approve of the topic . That is not what a " forum " should be ! Is this only an elitists marketplace for those wanting to sell "Rolex " knives ?

 

[bodog]

Thanks very much for jumping in here . Feels like I'm being mobbed sometimes . Seems like a purposeful tactic to get a thread closed if certain members don't approve of the topic . That is not what a " forum " should be ! Is this only an elitists marketplace for those wanting to sell "Rolex " knives ?

There are a couple of guys who are allowed to incessantly troll. They frequent the whine and cheese sub-forum. Go there, see who regularly posts there, add them to your ignore list, and continue enjoying bladeforums for what it is rather than sinking into their crap pile. I have and the only time I see much trouble anymore you can bet the same people are involved over and over again. Ignore them and move on.

Having said that, I don't support counterfeit items at all. If warranted I do support generic models or modified/tweaked versions if they're made in a way that does not cause confusion about who made the copy or where. People in the US have the legal right to stand behind IP protection. If there's no IP violation, then there's no IP violation. I do support innovation but not at the expense of progress. In the US that's the length of a valid patent or trademark.

 

[craytab]

Crabby - YOU STARTED THIS ! You made it personal 1st . You called names and attacked ME . I'm just trying to defend from your terror tactics which seek to exclude and silence any disagreement with YOU !

Please show me in this thread where I personally insulted you as you have done to me.

Hey crabby ! Who died and left YOU as the " voice of the forum" ??? We are ALL " the forum" . That's what a forum means ! Deal with it .

More name calling. Great. I am not any voice here. The voice of this forum is in the rules. Rules which state that counterfeits hurt the hobby. You can disagree but it is the policy here that you are wrong.

There are a couple of guys who are allowed to incessantly troll. They frequent the whine and cheese sub-forum. Go there, see who regularly posts there, add them to your ignore list, and continue enjoying bladeforums for what it is rather than sinking into their crap pile. I have and the only time I see much trouble anymore you can bet the same people are involved over and over again. Ignore them and move on.

Having said that, I don't support counterfeit items at all. If warranted I do support generic models or modified/tweaked versions if they're made in a way that does not cause confusion about who made the copy or where. People in the US have the legal right to stand behind IP protection. If there's no IP violation, then there's no IP violation. I do support innovation but not at the expense of progress. In the US that's the length of a valid patent or trademark.

 

[DocJD]

Please show me in this thread where I personally insulted you as you have done to me.



More name calling. Great. I am not any voice here. The voice of this forum is in the rules. Rules which state that counterfeits hurt the hobby. You can disagree but it is the policy here that you are wrong.

Hey There Crabby Cakes ! You are absolutely wrong as usual . There is no such rule . That is an OPINION ! The rule is concerning sales or advertising . I'm glad you're not a lawyer or maybe you would make a good "public defender " .

 

[stonproject]

Agreed, there lies the biggest problem with BF I've witnessed time and time again over the years. On this forum, you get singled out and stoned by the mob if you do not fall in line with the establishment's thinking/value/preferences etc...

I normally don't comment on these type of threads because so many people get bend out of shape about "China", "buy American", "clones" whatever... I categorize these type of people into the innocently uninformed, the naive and hard headed ignorant bunch.

The truth is, ideas and the imitation and copying of ideas is what propels the human civilization forward. Look at our history, every time man invents something new, others copy it, adapt it, enhance it, refine it, and that's what technological progress is all about. Be it mathematics, science, technology, design, what have you:

Who invented the wheel? Probably before the existence of city states.

Should Albert Einstein or any other scientist or mathematician get paid every time their formula for math or chemistry or physics gets used in the development of something new?

The famous Viking sword marked Wulfbert, known for it's quality was widely copied and forged during the Viking age.

Chinese invented gun powder and the first gun powder based weapons, western countries refined the gun powdered weaponry and used it to brutalize and colonize much of China and other states during the 1800's. Should the Chinese bitch and moan and get financial compensation for the western powers' use of their invention to subjugate their people?

The 1911 pistol invented by Browning and initially made by Colt is now manufactured by so many countries and companies. Now how many of you guys here own 1911 pistols that's not a Colt, if you do you're then a hypocrite.

The same thing can be said for Glock pistols (if you own a polymer pistol other than a Glock, that make you a hypocrite also) and countless other items/technology.

I understand the modern copy rights and patents, even by law those patents/copy rights expires after a set amount of years. One reason is to give the inventor proper financial reimbursement for their invention, another is to allow the invention to be available to all to reduce cost and benefit all man.

Furthermore, "buying American" does nothing for this country's economics and it can not reverse the tide of history. American has not been a manufacturing hub for many decades simply because of higher labor cost and environmental/labor/tax laws.

"Buying American" is a choice some makes, just as "buying Chinese" is the choice others do. We should not condemn anyone for how they spent their money and enforce our own values on them.

For me and many members country of origin isn't the issue. I love my kizers. Reate and WE are producing some very fine knives and they're not USA made OR knockoffs. People who purely have issues with country of origin, well, that's their issue. I think the problem 99% of the community has on this subject is blatant counterfeiting.

Heck, I've seen some counterfeit sebenzas that are mighty tempting, because I love the design, but I can't afford the real thing. But I don't buy them, because it for one, wouldn't feel satisfying to me (buying a counterfeit) and two, it DOES hurt the community.

There's a grey area in opinion of knives that look like other knives for the members here, IE "homage" items, but I don't think anyone who is serious about the knife community would ever endorse buying blatant counterfeits.

 

[BITEME]

If they are going to buy a fake,there is nothing I can do about it......and thats the way that goes.

 

[craytab]

Hey There Crabby Cakes ! You are absolutely wrong as usual . There is no such rule . That is an OPINION ! The rule is concerning sales or advertising . I'm glad you're not a lawyer or maybe you would make a good "public defender " .

There is no rule against liking your garbage counterfeits. In the exchange rule about counterfeits the opinion on counterfeits of this forum is displayed. Counterfeiting hurts this hobby. You can't argue otherwise. It says in the rules that supporting counterfeiting hurts this hobby. To say otherwise is not what this forum thinks. You are welcome to be wrong all you want.

 

[stevoflurane]

Buy what you want OP, it's unamerican to let other people infringe on your free market rights.

If they want to spend 1/2 of their monthly salary on a Shiro, that might not be financially prudent but that is their right as well.

Trying to justify the logic on an 800 dollar knife to someone sane is pointless. It's a collecting hobby. Maybe someone else just wants to cut things lol.

 

[DocJD]

There is no rule against liking your garbage counterfeits. In the exchange rule about counterfeits the opinion on counterfeits of this forum is displayed. Counterfeiting hurts this hobby. You can't argue otherwise. It says in the rules that supporting counterfeiting hurts this hobby. To say otherwise is not what this forum thinks. You are welcome to be wrong all you want.

Now you're just being silly and not making a bit of sense . Maybe a warm bath and a nice cup of cocoa with a marshmallow on top . And a good nights sleep and you will think more clearly . You are not the forum.

You are only YOU . Uniquely miraculously YOU . NOT " the forum" . The forum is everyone who posts on the forum . Please look up the meaning of the words you use . In the morning .

No , technically the definition of forum is simply a PLACE that matters may be discussed . But it's the people that really constitute a forum . And the open and free interchange of ideas is what makes a GOOD forum .

 

[Mecha]

Hey crabby ! It's YOU that hurts the hobby by being exclusive and tiny tent . It's perfectly valid to love and collect replicas that are obviously fake . Just like a fine art print of a Rembrandt does not hurt art collecting-in fact it HELPS !

Rembrandt is long dead. He does not currently paint originals. If he was alive today and other people were copying his paintings, claiming they were original Rembrandts and selling them as such, I'm sure the original artist would be spittin' vinegar. Rembrandt would be losing money and the collector who thought he was getting the real thing would be getting ripped off. Even then, if a FAKE Rembrandt painting was sold as if it was a true original, it WOULD cheapen and hurt art collecting. It's staggering that you can't understand this, and how it applies to blade makers. Maybe you should get into collecting POGs or Garbage Pail Kid cards.

 

[DocJD]

Rembrandt is long dead. He does not currently paint originals. If he was alive today and other people were copying his paintings, claiming they were original Rembrandts and selling them as such, I'm sure the original artist would be spittin' vinegar. Even then, if a FAKE Rembrandt painting was sold as if it was a true original, it WOULD cheapen and hurt art collecting. Rembrandt would be losing money and the collector who thought he was getting the real thing would be getting ripped off. It's staggering that you can't understand this, and how it applies to blade makers. Maybe you should get into collecting POGs or Garbage Pail Kid cards.

Hey Mecha , thanks for your input . Have you personally had your work copied and been damaged ? I think I visited your site some time ago and don't recall seeing any cheap replicas of your work available direct from China for under $20 (which is the only type of obvious replica I have ever bought .) Didn't anyone actually read my original post ?

I have never purchased or countenanced the trade in counterfeit ANYTHING , where there is a reasonable chance that a rational collector could be fooled or that the original maker could suffer damage .That's of course only according to my own best judgement .

 

[Mecha]

Hey Mecha , thanks for your input . Have you personally had your work copied and been damaged ? I think I visited your site some time ago and don't recall seeing any cheap replicas of your work available direct from China for under $20 (which is the only type of obvious replica I have ever bought .) Didn't anyone actually read my original post ?

I have never purchased or countenanced the trade in counterfeit ANYTHING , where there is a reasonable chance that a rational collector could be fooled or that the original maker could suffer damage .That's of course only according to my own best judgement .

Well, I guess if someone wants the beauty of a Rembrandt to adorn their walls, it's unlikely they're going to be able to get an original, and they're lucky to live in a time where they can get a great print cheaply. It's not a good comparison to the fake knife problem though, even though it may seem so at first glance.

Nobody has copied my stuff, but if someone started stamping an atom insignia into slabs of ti and selling them, it I'd be pretty damn mad about it even if they never claimed the swords were Mad Science Forge blades. I think it would be wrong and damaging for someone to knowingly do that, even if it's not illegal.

I'm sure Mr. Shirogorov has put a lot of time, thought, energy and money into making his knives come to life, and yes, it's not as if they don't have a lot of features that are used in other knives. But if some factory that benefits from cheap labor and lax pollution laws starts blatantly copying the exact designs and selling them at a large undercut, it's like stealing the potential that others have worked so hard to put into the original knives. Rembrandt doesn't have that problem.

 

[DocJD]

Well, I guess if someone wants the beauty of a Rembrandt to adorn their walls, it's unlikely they're going to be able to get an original, and they're lucky to live in a time where they can get a great print cheaply. It's not a good comparison to the fake knife problem though, even though it may seem so at first glance.

Nobody has copied my stuff, but if someone started stamping an atom insignia into slabs of ti and selling them, it I'd be pretty damn mad about it even if they never claimed the swords were Mad Science Forge blades. I think it would be wrong and damaging for someone to knowingly do that, even if it's not illegal.

I'm sure Mr. Shirogorov has put a lot of time, thought, energy and money into making his knives come to life, and yes, it's not as if they don't have a lot of features that are used in other knives. But if some factory that benefits from cheap labor and lax pollution laws starts blatantly copying the exact designs and selling them at a large undercut, it's like stealing the potential that others have worked so hard to put into the original knives. Rembrandt doesn't have that problem.

Well... my analogy has some holes . But I hope you'll check out MY little review of of a Shirogorov replica direct from China for $12.50 ! How can that be mistaken for the real thing ? How can anyone be harmed .

I made that review mostly as a little joke . Then I got jumped by a bunch of hysterics . I don't appreciate such tactics . All things clone aren't necessarily the ultimate evil doom of original makers . It certainly makes the knife market on BF more valuable because of the mechanisms available to check seller feedback etc . I gave up trying to find certain used Spyderco models on evilbay because it was so difficult to sort out the real from fake . But doesn't that make trusted sources MORE valuable ? Even good old Amazon has knock-offs . Overall , I'd sooner have a world with no such problems - but here is reality .

I think maybe that the very high end custom market is exclusive enough that the maker and buyer are able to be in communication enough to guard against counterfeits . But I can only hope this is true .

Oh, and if it should some day come to pass that your personal creations are cloned in China I believe you will maybe have really "made it " in the knife world and will probably have no problem selling everything you can possibly produce !

 

[trevitrace]

Oh, and if it should some day come to pass that your personal creations are cloned in China I believe you will maybe have really "made it " in the knife world and will probably have no problem selling everything you can possibly produce !

So people should look forward to having their creations copied once they've "made it"? Cool.

 

[Natlek]

Well, I guess if someone wants the beauty of a Rembrandt to adorn their walls, it's unlikely they're going to be able to get an original, and they're lucky to live in a time where they can get a great print cheaply. It's not a good comparison to the fake knife problem though, even though it may seem so at first glance.

Nobody has copied my stuff, but if someone started stamping an atom insignia into slabs of ti and selling them, it I'd be pretty damn mad about it even if they never claimed the swords were Mad Science Forge blades. I think it would be wrong and damaging for someone to knowingly do that, even if it's not illegal.

I'm sure Mr. Shirogorov has put a lot of time, thought, energy and money into making his knives come to life, and yes, it's not as if they don't have a lot of features that are used in other knives. But if some factory that benefits from cheap labor and lax pollution laws starts blatantly copying the exact designs and selling them at a large undercut, it's like stealing the potential that others have worked so hard to put into the original knives. Rembrandt doesn't have that problem.

I completely agree with this . It would be a complete counterfeit . But , may I ask what if there is no logo or a sign from manufacturer on clone knive ? How that can be counterfeit ? On what Mr.Shirogorov have patent right ? On blade shape , on handle shape ? On used materials ? From who he get the right to use lock system on his knive ?? Or I can feel free to call him a forger ? You know what ? Sometimes I get idea to make knife and I draw shape on paper , happy that I finally have something personal . But next day here on forum or on internet I see that someone has already used this shape of knive , handle .......