Chisel Grind...Why?

EChoil said:
My God, man. You speak a mile to say an inch. We're never gonna change each others minds, are we....... :)

I can only hit to left field---you're in Row 238 of the parking lot with this stuff.

I'll refer to the second paragraph of my initial post and let someone else bore us for a while.
Click to expand...

You asked, bro. Sorry if you don't get it, but it's geometry. It's how sharp things work. No offense meant, but with all due respect I don't think you're batting here, and I'm not even sure if we're both playing the same game if you're disregarding what I wrote.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
You asked, bro. Sorry if you don't get it, but it's geometry. It's how sharp things work. No offense meant, but with all due respect I don't think you're batting here, and I'm not even sure if we're both playing the same game if you're disregarding what I wrote.
Click to expand...

Oh I get it, and know geometry. Reference my post to islandblacksmith on the previous page.

No offense was ever taken. Still isn't. I'm batting...but I'm in a baseball game. You're playing field hockey out there. We all know there are exceptions to everything and how sharp things work in the narrowest of parameters. You tend to stay there...I like to remain broader. Again, we're not going to change one anothers minds.

I don't disregard anything you write. But I stand by everything I've written.
 
Probably not going to add a whole lot to the subject but hey, it's a free country.

There seems to be a whole lot of people who have never tried a chisel grind. I promise. It won't screw you up for life. Or make a great knife a terrible knife. Or make a poor knife a great knife. Or.....Anyway. It won't hurt to try one. I promise.

If you want to try a great chisel grind knife buy one from Josh Mason here on the exchange. Or, I think Charlie Mike makes and likes some? Although I don't have any of CM blades I do one of Joshes knives and I highly recommend them. I'll tell you how much. If you buy one of his knives and you don't like it I'll pay you what you paid. For the first 2. After that I'll think Josh lost his mind and is just screwing with me.

Oh, just to add. If you are free hand sharpening a knife. Is it easier to hold an angle, say 30% on one side or try to hold 15 degrees on 2 sides? And if there is a variation, is it a larger variation and a more critical variation sharpening say 25-30 degrees on one side? Or 15-20 degrees on a flat or v grind?
 
Last edited:
Alright gents, before one of you picks up the bat and chases the other, allow me to put this issue to rest once and for all. I, and I alone, happen to have the definitive answer to this Einsteinian question of A vs, B. It's A. Done, you're quite welcome, now if you'll excuse me...I'm a 40 year old man, so I have to go eat dinner with Mom now....hey, her basement, her rules...am I right fellas?
 
EChoil said:
As I point out in my post.



Right, yielding a very sharp, but weak, edge which requires frequent stropping for maintenance---the big difference in the modern razor blades of which I speak. You don't strop your Gillette blades do you? They're stronger and stand up better to use. It's one of the reasons you don't see people using straight razors much anymore---something better came along.



Right---they cut better.

As to "cheaper to produce" being the reason for their existence, we'll have to disagree:

If a V-grind razor blade were better, they would be on the shelves....or at least the CHOICE would be there. Again, with the exorbitant markup and retail cost of razor blades already, what little extra cost would be incurred by grinding both sides would still see them on the shelves and they would have buyers.



Right. They cut better.

Thanks for helping me clear this up.
Click to expand...

Just because production razor are chisel grind doesn't mean its the best grind. The reason why straight razor need to be hollow ground because it is the only method to thin the edge down enough from thick stock of steel.

People don't need to strop Gillette blade because it designed to be replace... The blade strength or weakness are depend on geometry, thickness, steel and heat treat. If the hollow grind blade have the same thickness at the bevel and same edge angle to flat-chisel grind then they will have the same strength.

most razor are made of 13C26/AEB-L type of steel and there are alot of custom straight razor who can optimize the heat treat better than production.

When it come to shave blade, they are all thin, sharp and weak... modern shaver are popular because they are designed to be safer and easier to use... nothing to do with the type of grind. Chisel grind/edge are good on some type of application, razor, scissor, chisel is some of them... but it definitely not the best at everything.
 
EChoil said:
Oh I get it, and know geometry. Reference my post to islandblacksmith on the previous page.

No offense was ever taken. Still isn't. I'm batting...but I'm in a baseball game. You're playing field hockey out there. We all know there are exceptions to everything and how sharp things work in the narrowest of parameters. You tend to stay there...I like to remain broader. Again, we're not going to change one anothers minds.

I don't disregard anything you write. But I stand by everything I've written.
Click to expand...

You don't seem to get that what I posted is broad in its parameters and that's exactly what makes it complicated in terms of how it plays out. That's kind of the problem--it's casting a broad net. Design is driven by intended function, yet there are often a myriad of ways to accomplish performing that function equally well. While all roads lead to Rome (the end function), their other end (the features of the tool and how they interact to get you there) is free to go somewhere else entirely, which is why it matters to take context of use into account and to make sure that you have all your variables straight so you know they'll interact right. It's like making a cake and using baking soda instead of baking powder. They're similar in a lot of ways: they're both white powders that act as leavening agents. But because they work differently when actually added to a recipe, accidentally switching one for the other is going to screw with your end results and it won't turn out the way you expected.
 
Do most chisel grinds have a secondary bevel? Or is it the opposite? I feel like a chisel grind would work on thin slicy knives best...
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
You don't seem to get that what I posted is broad in its parameters and that's exactly what makes it complicated in terms of how it plays out. That's kind of the problem--it's casting a broad net. .....
Click to expand...

I only know you know your stuff backward and forward, FortyTwo.

This is becoming like a good friend who once swore to me he saw Muhammad Ali levitate three inches off the ground at a party. And I know for a fact the guy would never lie to me.

What can one say.....
 
M1GarandGuy said:
Do most chisel grinds have a secondary bevel? Or is it the opposite? I feel like a chisel grind would work on thin slicy knives best...
Click to expand...

Some of them do; it's possible to do a micro bevel I guess, not sure about "most."

It'll work on thin....some of the kitchen oriented knives even have a concave back grind of some kind from what I understand.
 
EChoil said:
Some of them do; it's possible to do a micro bevel I guess, not sure about "most."

It'll work on thin....some of the kitchen oriented knives even have a concave back grind of some kind from what I understand.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure emersons have a secondary bevel, but those just don't seem to cut well for me. I'm sure a well done chisel grind will cut well though...
 
sirupatespecial said:
Oh, just to add. If you are free hand sharpening a knife. Is it easier to hold an angle, say 30% on one side or try to hold 15 degrees on 2 sides? And if there is a variation, is it a larger variation and a more critical variation sharpening say 25-30 degrees on one side? Or 15-20 degrees on a flat or v grind?
Click to expand...

I think you meant 30 degrees on one side vs 15 on both... And the problem is you still will create a burr, so you have to do both sides anyway to break the burr, and it is probably harder to do so perfectly when the bevel is not even...

Another big problem is that for the same bevel base thickness, a 30 degree angle on one side will have a sharper shoulder than two 15 degrees shoulders, and this objectively creates more drag on the cut: What is saved on one side does not compensate for what is lost on the other, because the tendency to yaw is a net loss taken out of going forward.

Gaston
 
Last edited:
EChoil said:
If that is true why are most scalpels chisel ground? At least I think they are....

Can you provide documentation of this claim that chisel inflicts a nastier, more difficult wound to heal than V-grind? I'd like to know because I'm under the opposite impression...that chisel grind will make a technically 'cleaner' cut.

I know this is true of a triangular blade, such as the old outlawed bayonets of previous wars, but never heard this distinction between chisel and V in the medical realm.
Click to expand...

As far as scalpels being chisel ground I just did a quick google search and didn't come up with much saying that they are or are not chisel ground. The ones I've seen aren't but I could be wrong. Best quick explanation I can give (assuming that they are chisel ground) is that the scalpel will have a thinner stock than most chisel ground EDC knives due to the fact that it's for slicing a pretty soft medium. That being said I would also throw in that a scalpel is for making precise cuts not wounds, and therefore using that level of precision should eliminate slashes the way they would play out in a combat scenario.

As far as why I say they would make a nastier wound, I would recommend reading Ernest Emerson's philosophies on chisel ground (I've dabbled and been given summaries) knowing from experience a chisel ground blade separates skin a little differently in a stabbing or combat scenario and doesn't create an even pull apart due to the flat side instead of the even V grind
 
Mossyhorn said:
I designed this knife and Charlie Mike made it for me. It is a chisel grind on the right side. This knife was meant to be used and the chisel grind is there for a reason. I make a lot of canes and hiking staffs and shaving off the bark and roughing out the shape is
one of the reasons that I wanted this blade. It can also make a great EDC blade and I find it useful for many of chores. Chisel grinds go way back, but look at the history of bread knives for a clue as to why a chisel grind. It's really that simple.

i-JFDKVN6-X2.jpg
Click to expand...

That photo suggests that you work the knife with your right hand. Correct? The flat side of a chisel grind placed against the work gives good control, similar to the dynamics found in a zero scandi grind.
 
Bill1170 said:
That photo suggests that you work the knife with your right hand. Correct? The flat side of a chisel grind placed against the work gives good control, similar to the dynamics found in a zero scandi grind.
Click to expand...

Chisel ground knives, much like actual chisels, are used both with the beveled face against the workpiece and with the flat, depending on the kind of cut being made.
 
mrnotsam123 said:
As far as scalpels being chisel ground I just did a quick google search and didn't come up with much saying that they are or are not chisel ground. The ones I've seen aren't but I could be wrong. Best quick explanation I can give (assuming that they are chisel ground) is that the scalpel will have a thinner stock than most chisel ground EDC knives due to the fact that it's for slicing a pretty soft medium. That being said I would also throw in that a scalpel is for making precise cuts not wounds, and therefore using that level of precision should eliminate slashes the way they would play out in a combat scenario.
Click to expand...

I believe most scalpels used in hospitals/clinics are chisel ground...and also disposable. As I ran into with FortyTwoBlades, certainly there can be exceptions to everything.

A thinner stock can be and is often chisel ground; some Leatherman/Multi Tool blades are an example. Razor blades too. I don't see stock thickness being so much of a determining factor as what you state. Not a limiting thing anyway....unless we're going into left field rarities again--which may certainly exist out there.

Not sure about "precision vs. slashing." The fact that chisel grind is widely used is all I was trying to point out initially---and that it can certainly be made extremely sharp. That's all I was trying to point out originally.

Not sure this gets us much of anywhere though.... pretty basic. :)

mrnotsam123 said:
As far as why I say they would make a nastier wound, I would recommend reading Ernest Emerson's philosophies on chisel ground (I've dabbled and been given summaries) knowing from experience a chisel ground blade separates skin a little differently in a stabbing or combat scenario and doesn't create an even pull apart due to the flat side instead of the even V grind
Click to expand...

I've read some of Mr. Emerson's writings, as have many in here. Evidently I missed his chapter on wound analysis.

Sorry, but I don't think there would be much of a distinction between use of a chisel vs. V-grind blade, both being sharp, in the "combat" scenario you point out. A coroner may, after the fact, be able to distinguish between the two edges as used, but the SEVERITY potential seems equal to me. At least I'm unaware of any documented studies on same, proving a chisel to make nastier wounds in a real world combat situation once all is said and done. Nor is it likely I'll ever find out. I don't consider myself a combat knife fighter by any means.

If you have a specific link to something documenting that I'd be glad to take a look at it. If I can learn something....hey. Not that this particular aspect of the subject is of great interest to me, nor did I ever bring it up.

Seems to be a lot of "speculation" in your post. Just my opinion....

Thanks for the contribution though. I suppose it's food-for-thought to some.
 
Every scalpel blade I've come across has been double bevel, and I've seen a fair number of different blade styles.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Every scalpel blade I've come across has been double bevel, and I've seen a fair number of different blade styles.
Click to expand...

By "double bevel" do you mean they were all V-ground or could that mean chisel grind with a micro-bevel?

Is "V-grind" bad terminology? Should I be using the term "double bevel" here instead?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top