Chisel Grind...Why?

Discussion in 'General Knife Discussion' started by d762nato, Jan 6, 2016.

  1. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    You asked, bro. Sorry if you don't get it, but it's geometry. It's how sharp things work. No offense meant, but with all due respect I don't think you're batting here, and I'm not even sure if we're both playing the same game if you're disregarding what I wrote.
     
  2. EChoil

    EChoil Banned BANNED

    May 22, 2014
    Oh I get it, and know geometry. Reference my post to islandblacksmith on the previous page.

    No offense was ever taken. Still isn't. I'm batting...but I'm in a baseball game. You're playing field hockey out there. We all know there are exceptions to everything and how sharp things work in the narrowest of parameters. You tend to stay there...I like to remain broader. Again, we're not going to change one anothers minds.

    I don't disregard anything you write. But I stand by everything I've written.
     
  3. sirupatespecial

    sirupatespecial

    537
    Oct 16, 2013
    Probably not going to add a whole lot to the subject but hey, it's a free country.

    There seems to be a whole lot of people who have never tried a chisel grind. I promise. It won't screw you up for life. Or make a great knife a terrible knife. Or make a poor knife a great knife. Or.....Anyway. It won't hurt to try one. I promise.

    If you want to try a great chisel grind knife buy one from Josh Mason here on the exchange. Or, I think Charlie Mike makes and likes some? Although I don't have any of CM blades I do one of Joshes knives and I highly recommend them. I'll tell you how much. If you buy one of his knives and you don't like it I'll pay you what you paid. For the first 2. After that I'll think Josh lost his mind and is just screwing with me.

    Oh, just to add. If you are free hand sharpening a knife. Is it easier to hold an angle, say 30% on one side or try to hold 15 degrees on 2 sides? And if there is a variation, is it a larger variation and a more critical variation sharpening say 25-30 degrees on one side? Or 15-20 degrees on a flat or v grind?
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2016
  4. VanDammet

    VanDammet

    Jun 30, 2015
    Alright gents, before one of you picks up the bat and chases the other, allow me to put this issue to rest once and for all. I, and I alone, happen to have the definitive answer to this Einsteinian question of A vs, B. It's A. Done, you're quite welcome, now if you'll excuse me...I'm a 40 year old man, so I have to go eat dinner with Mom now....hey, her basement, her rules...am I right fellas?
     
  5. shqxk

    shqxk

    Mar 26, 2012
    Just because production razor are chisel grind doesn't mean its the best grind. The reason why straight razor need to be hollow ground because it is the only method to thin the edge down enough from thick stock of steel.

    People don't need to strop Gillette blade because it designed to be replace... The blade strength or weakness are depend on geometry, thickness, steel and heat treat. If the hollow grind blade have the same thickness at the bevel and same edge angle to flat-chisel grind then they will have the same strength.

    most razor are made of 13C26/AEB-L type of steel and there are alot of custom straight razor who can optimize the heat treat better than production.

    When it come to shave blade, they are all thin, sharp and weak... modern shaver are popular because they are designed to be safer and easier to use... nothing to do with the type of grind. Chisel grind/edge are good on some type of application, razor, scissor, chisel is some of them... but it definitely not the best at everything.
     
  6. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    You don't seem to get that what I posted is broad in its parameters and that's exactly what makes it complicated in terms of how it plays out. That's kind of the problem--it's casting a broad net. Design is driven by intended function, yet there are often a myriad of ways to accomplish performing that function equally well. While all roads lead to Rome (the end function), their other end (the features of the tool and how they interact to get you there) is free to go somewhere else entirely, which is why it matters to take context of use into account and to make sure that you have all your variables straight so you know they'll interact right. It's like making a cake and using baking soda instead of baking powder. They're similar in a lot of ways: they're both white powders that act as leavening agents. But because they work differently when actually added to a recipe, accidentally switching one for the other is going to screw with your end results and it won't turn out the way you expected.
     
  7. M1GarandGuy

    M1GarandGuy

    205
    Jun 24, 2015
    Do most chisel grinds have a secondary bevel? Or is it the opposite? I feel like a chisel grind would work on thin slicy knives best...
     
  8. EChoil

    EChoil Banned BANNED

    May 22, 2014
    I only know you know your stuff backward and forward, FortyTwo.

    This is becoming like a good friend who once swore to me he saw Muhammad Ali levitate three inches off the ground at a party. And I know for a fact the guy would never lie to me.

    What can one say.....
     
  9. EChoil

    EChoil Banned BANNED

    May 22, 2014
    Some of them do; it's possible to do a micro bevel I guess, not sure about "most."

    It'll work on thin....some of the kitchen oriented knives even have a concave back grind of some kind from what I understand.
     
  10. M1GarandGuy

    M1GarandGuy

    205
    Jun 24, 2015
    I'm pretty sure emersons have a secondary bevel, but those just don't seem to cut well for me. I'm sure a well done chisel grind will cut well though...
     
  11. Gaston444

    Gaston444

    Oct 1, 2014
    I think you meant 30 degrees on one side vs 15 on both... And the problem is you still will create a burr, so you have to do both sides anyway to break the burr, and it is probably harder to do so perfectly when the bevel is not even...

    Another big problem is that for the same bevel base thickness, a 30 degree angle on one side will have a sharper shoulder than two 15 degrees shoulders, and this objectively creates more drag on the cut: What is saved on one side does not compensate for what is lost on the other, because the tendency to yaw is a net loss taken out of going forward.

    Gaston
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  12. BubbaGump

    BubbaGump

    322
    Oct 30, 2015
    Bowing out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  13. mrnotsam123

    mrnotsam123

    802
    Aug 4, 2013
    As far as scalpels being chisel ground I just did a quick google search and didn't come up with much saying that they are or are not chisel ground. The ones I've seen aren't but I could be wrong. Best quick explanation I can give (assuming that they are chisel ground) is that the scalpel will have a thinner stock than most chisel ground EDC knives due to the fact that it's for slicing a pretty soft medium. That being said I would also throw in that a scalpel is for making precise cuts not wounds, and therefore using that level of precision should eliminate slashes the way they would play out in a combat scenario.

    As far as why I say they would make a nastier wound, I would recommend reading Ernest Emerson's philosophies on chisel ground (I've dabbled and been given summaries) knowing from experience a chisel ground blade separates skin a little differently in a stabbing or combat scenario and doesn't create an even pull apart due to the flat side instead of the even V grind
     
  14. Bill1170

    Bill1170 Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 20, 2007
    That photo suggests that you work the knife with your right hand. Correct? The flat side of a chisel grind placed against the work gives good control, similar to the dynamics found in a zero scandi grind.
     
  15. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    Chisel ground knives, much like actual chisels, are used both with the beveled face against the workpiece and with the flat, depending on the kind of cut being made.
     
  16. EChoil

    EChoil Banned BANNED

    May 22, 2014
    I believe most scalpels used in hospitals/clinics are chisel ground...and also disposable. As I ran into with FortyTwoBlades, certainly there can be exceptions to everything.

    A thinner stock can be and is often chisel ground; some Leatherman/Multi Tool blades are an example. Razor blades too. I don't see stock thickness being so much of a determining factor as what you state. Not a limiting thing anyway....unless we're going into left field rarities again--which may certainly exist out there.

    Not sure about "precision vs. slashing." The fact that chisel grind is widely used is all I was trying to point out initially---and that it can certainly be made extremely sharp. That's all I was trying to point out originally.

    Not sure this gets us much of anywhere though.... pretty basic. :)

    I've read some of Mr. Emerson's writings, as have many in here. Evidently I missed his chapter on wound analysis.

    Sorry, but I don't think there would be much of a distinction between use of a chisel vs. V-grind blade, both being sharp, in the "combat" scenario you point out. A coroner may, after the fact, be able to distinguish between the two edges as used, but the SEVERITY potential seems equal to me. At least I'm unaware of any documented studies on same, proving a chisel to make nastier wounds in a real world combat situation once all is said and done. Nor is it likely I'll ever find out. I don't consider myself a combat knife fighter by any means.

    If you have a specific link to something documenting that I'd be glad to take a look at it. If I can learn something....hey. Not that this particular aspect of the subject is of great interest to me, nor did I ever bring it up.

    Seems to be a lot of "speculation" in your post. Just my opinion....

    Thanks for the contribution though. I suppose it's food-for-thought to some.
     
  17. FortyTwoBlades

    FortyTwoBlades Baryonyx walkeri Dealer / Materials Provider

    Mar 8, 2008
    Every scalpel blade I've come across has been double bevel, and I've seen a fair number of different blade styles.
     
  18. Lycosa

    Lycosa

    Aug 24, 2007
    I THINK both v and chisel can be equal in sharpness.
     
  19. EChoil

    EChoil Banned BANNED

    May 22, 2014
    By "double bevel" do you mean they were all V-ground or could that mean chisel grind with a micro-bevel?

    Is "V-grind" bad terminology? Should I be using the term "double bevel" here instead?
     
  20. stabman

    stabman Gold Member Gold Member

    Sep 17, 2007
    Because they can.
    The same angle = the same angle.
    Should be self-evident.
     

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