Chris Reeve Destrution Test On Youtube?

[Bors]

Just look at the Noss work as a "taste test" and all is good!

It is simply a test of personal preference. A guy beats a bunch of knives-some last longer than others. Choose the one you like! Or not!

Or design and perform your own tests. Or anything else that might actually be constructive and not a lame personal attack.

Or just buy loads of BUSSE knives and don't worry about a thing!

Yep!!!


:thumbup:

 

[Bors]

Then again I ask, what can we do to standardize some BF testing? We have 24 pages of nothing.

Can we produce some standard testing for "Hard Use" Knives for example, and post it and when any one wishes to test they can have a reference.

Does chopping concrete do? Many people encounter hitting rocks (or a rusty nail) when chopping but they are so random that there is no way to replicate each situation, so hitting a cinder block is the same as chopping wood and hitting stone. If a blade can take let's say 10 full force hits on a cinder block and not chip then we can give some merit to a statement like "a shock steel designed to withstand chipping". If you have something better to test this claim don't take it on me just write what you think is better. If you don't want to test the validity of the claim and want to take the manufacture's word then what are you doing here in this sub-forum?

What worries me its that the negative criticism will detract a person who wishes to write a testing by fear of being ridiculed or made fun of.

One thing is to say "you know if you would have done this .... or that ... it would have shown better X or Y" the other is to try to demean the person CONTRIBUTING to the forum.

Criticism is easy.... Testing something actually takes effort.


I'm in a P&V mood tonight and this post has gone way to long........SO.... I'm going to call it. Those who think the the test is silly, unscientific, a waste of time ( of which you have wasted a lot with your criticism) please feel free to show the rest of the world how you would do it.....

Come on show us..........



BORS.......

 

[dante]

I don't think you get my point, I'm all for people testing and cutting and destroying and sharpening and whatever. What I feel is bad is making attacks on a person just because the testing or results are not what they wanted. For those people I invite them to come up with something better. Most of the testing is done with personal funds in their own time just to contribute to the forum. The least we can say is thanks for taking the time and money to do something. I hope we are in the same channel.

Oh and by the way I was the guy who donated the Scrapyard 6 used in the destruction.

 

[Nuke41]

Want to do some real testing and feel good about it at the same time? Buy a knife and send it in an "any serviceman's" box to Iraq or Afghanistan. Ask them to drop you a line at the end of their tour with how the knife did. It will be real world testing, if it works for them it will work for anyone.

 

[Karda]

Criticism is easy.... Testing something actually takes effort.
I'm in a P&V mood tonight and this post has gone way to long........SO.... I'm going to call it. Those who think the the test is silly, unscientific, a waste of time ( of which you have wasted a lot with your criticism) please feel free to show the rest of the world how you would do it.....

Come on show us..........

Want to do some real testing and feel good about it at the same time? Buy a knife and send it in an "any serviceman's" box to Iraq or Afghanistan. Ask them to drop you a line at the end of their tour with how the knife did. It will be real world testing, if it works for them it will work for anyone.

There you go BORS.....

I'm all for real world use.(great post nuke!) Instead of the fantasy testing being done by noss4.
What i'm really against though, is the way these self proclaimed tests are made out to be gospel,how a makers entire line is trashed based on controversial testing and how anyone who speaks their mind about said tests are browbeat by the noss4 fanboys.
And as i've said before...if these tests were done with knives noss actually had to purchase with the understanding that his testing voids the warranty because of the abuse....we'd probably get better testing and less attention whoring.

 

[tomcrx]

First and foremost this post is not to knock CR or any manufacturer. CR is a ethical manufacturer and has done great service to the knife industry as a whole.

The fallacy under which you operate
revolves around the assumption that objecting to completely absurd destruction/abuse tests is done because the person objecting has taken personal offense.

Let's look at the "absurd" pronouncement in your statement...

The counter to his testing is

1. Sample size is to small

Why? What sample size do you need and what is your justification? In manufacturing I have seen sampling all over the board some as low as 1:10000. The more mature the line and better the QC the lower the sample size. Noss is not working with prototypes, he is working with mature production samples. How many GB's and P1's does CR produce a year? Were Noss's samples 10% of production or .01% of production. The only person who knows this is CR. Like most manufacturers he is not going to release numbers unless it has a market or sales advantage.

The 2 knives were from two different product lines and 2 temporal runs, yet they failed in very similar ways. The only thing in common was the steel, manufacturer, and heat treat. This actually gives more weight to Noss's results. It's not like both were from the same bad batch.

Noss uses induction to reach his conclusion on CR from those 2 knives. Poppler, Russell and other logicians may believe that conclusion by induction is erroneous but it is a common experimental method in all scientific and engineering fields I have worked in.

His sample size is not 1. It is all the knives he has tested since his population is tough knives, not CR knives. CR's failed early in the process. So is your argument that they would have went longer to failure and these are bad samples? Do you put the same requirement to every comparative test? If you do then never read Consumer Reports or any hobby magazine. In fact you should tear them up, since I have never seen any put large sample sizes through their comparative testing.

2. The test is abusive.

That is the point. Noss clearly states his goal is to put every knife through similar tests to failure. Duh. That is how he defines "tough". By his definition and objective these knives failed early in the process and therefore are not as "tough" as other knives in his testing.

3. There is variability in the testing methods

This is the only valid criticism of the tests. What do you expect from tests done with hand tools in someone's garage? To Noss's credit he seems to be trying to standardize his methods and execution but it has a long way to go.

If posters or critics gave him more insight and knowledge into this facet of his testing I think he would incorporate it. Instead they give derision and anecdotal evidence of why their knife is tough. When it comes to scientific testing, undocumented anecdotal evidence is the worse there is. So you can't attack his testing on the basis of methodology and offer that as contrary data. It is a hypocrisy.

4. His tests are not what define a "tough" knife

Noss is trying to conform a lot of his tests to be similar to what the ABS uses and then making them more extreme. So there is some basis to why he is doing what he is doing. Until manufacturers start to release their testing procedures and failure rates there is not a lot to base a failure testing protocol on.

Also some people believe this is what "tough" is from manufacturer claims or what their fans claim. I have seen and heard tests of why the knives are tough by chopping through cinder block, chopping 2x4, bending 80 degrees in a vise, penetrating hoods, rectal penetration etc. Some have offered testimonials from users to using them as breaching tools, prying car doors, etc. As they say, if you put the kool-aid on the table some will drink it. You can't call someone irresponsible for doing this sort of testing given the current emphasis in some knife marketing toward survival, military, LEO and martial audiences.

I think forum members again could have a positive impact on this by offering knowledge from their fields instead of derision.

This is generally not the case. Rather, the individuals advocating such destructive "tests" and drawing spurious conclusions from them are the individuals who seem to have some personal stake in the argument.

What personal stake? I do not own any of the knives tested. I am not advocating the testing as the end all and be all.

I do think that Noss has the right to do the testing since he is fully documenting what he is doing . I see no agenda or bias towards any manufacturer or knife in particular. I see no rigging or falsification in his testing. So what is your stake? Why try to shout down a man who is trying to do simple, open testing in his garage for his own and others entertainment and knowledge?

The manufacturers know who he is. They have his contact info. If they have issue with his testing or thought there was defamation or dishonesty involved I belive they would take action.

Me, I just hate to see stunts treated as science. I also hate to see ignorant knife users' expectations for a fixed blade or a folding knife adjusted to unreasonable levels by the promulgation of this kind of abuse.

What came first the unreasonable expectations of us ignorant knife users or the testing? Don't you think those claims and anecdotes existed way before Noss arrived on the scene?

Do yourself a favor, ask 200 random people on the street if the have heard of Knifetests.com or bladeforums.com. Skew your audience further. Ask 200 random LEO or active military personnel. I think you would be surprised at how little people know or care about our cosmos. So this "promulgation" you speak of has negligible to no market impact.

Thanks for trying to protect me but I do know how to think for my self and reason. I do not need a Big Brother censoring what I see since it may warp my "childish and immature" little mind, even if it is you Phil. I try not to abuse my knives. If I do, I take responsibility for it and don't go whining to the manufacturer. I do like to watch Noss's testing and do support his right to do so. Free Speech and all that you know

Believe it or not, it's just possible that when someone objects to these "tests," it is not because his or her oxen have been gored.

Believe it or not, it's just possible that when someone supports these "tests", it not because they are trying to gore anyones oxen

 

[Phil Elmore]

Believe it or not, it's just possible that when someone supports these "tests", it not because they are trying to gore anyones oxen

That wasn't the issue, in this particular response.

 

[dante]

Want to do some real testing and feel good about it at the same time? Buy a knife and send it in an "any serviceman's" box to Iraq or Afghanistan. Ask them to drop you a line at the end of their tour with how the knife did. It will be real world testing, if it works for them it will work for anyone.

Then I say let's close this forum since is useless and open one called "real world reviews from soldiers"...

I'm all for supporting the troops 100%, I have sent things to friends in the service but what does this has to do with a forum of enthusiasts that like to discuss all aspects of knives? We collect and use high end knives that we purchase expecting some level of performance above the cheap steel that is sold everywhere. Along this line, if I had a brother in the service I'll be nervous to send him a Green Beret ok?, I'd rather send him one of my Scrapyards hell even the Gerber LMFII both cheaper than CR so I can probably send a couple, Why? Because of what I saw on the Knifetests videos. And don't take this as an attack to CRK because is not ,I have a Sebenza and I like it a lot and probably would purchase another.

My only gripe with this whole thread is that every review gives ME and many others a little information on what is out there and coming down and demeaning the people testing (for FREE because we pay nothing) it it's going to discourage further testing.

Noss area is destructive testing other may like edge retention, I've seen corrosion testing etc... and ALL have been informative.

I rather have more Nosses with "un-scientific tests" and Cliff Stamps with "overy scientific testing and techno babble" here than a bunch of general impression posts.

 

[nozh2002]

I am not sure that we are talking to real person - it is looks like one of this conversation machine which just generates arguing with pretty simple algorithm. One sentence responses of full page of explanations. Absolute ignorance - this is looks like some primitive arguing drone started to just produce negative impression of this very valuable real life tests by simple repeating again and again "absurd destruction" or "destruction for entertainment" - some kind of D.O.S. attack just to pollute discussion with pointless messages again and again just to make impression on someone who do not bother to see tests for himself and briefly scan this thread.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[onedge]

I wouldn't let a destruction test deter me from something that had tons of positive field reviews, but if I'm torn between two knives, and one of them passed noss4's test? Of course I'm going to pick that one. Are the tests over the top? Absolutely. That's the point. To see just how much abuse a knife can take if for any reason you are forced to stake your life on it.

 

[busselover]

I am not sure that we are talking to real person - it is looks like one of this conversation machine which just generates arguing with pretty simple algorithm. ...primitive arguing drone...

That is the funniest thing I have read on bladeforums, hands down....Thank you for the perfect characterization and the hearty laugh.....

 

[enderwiggin]

Then I say let's close this forum since is useless and open one called "real world reviews from soldiers"...

I'm all for supporting the troops 100%, I have sent things to friends in the service but what does this has to do with a forum of enthusiasts that like to discuss all aspects of knives? We collect and use high end knives that we purchase expecting some level of performance above the cheap steel that is sold everywhere. Along this line, if I had a brother in the service I'll be nervous to send him a Green Beret ok?, I'd rather send him one of my Scrapyards hell even the Gerber LMFII both cheaper than CR so I can probably send a couple, Why? Because of what I saw on the Knifetests videos. And don't take this as an attack to CRK because is not ,I have a Sebenza and I like it a lot and probably would purchase another.

My only gripe with this whole thread is that every review gives ME and many others a little information on what is out there and coming down and demeaning the people testing (for FREE because we pay nothing) it it's going to discourage further testing.

Noss area is destructive testing other may like edge retention, I've seen corrosion testing etc... and ALL have been informative.

I rather have more Nosses with "un-scientific tests" and Cliff Stamps with "overy scientific testing and techno babble" here than a bunch of general impression posts.

I don't see how making the paramaters of the test "real world use" instead of "beat on it 'till it breaks" is such a big deal.

I don't think the majority of people here would argue Cliff Stamp's tests were "overly scientific." The major problem with his tests was that they were
under scientific, while masquerading as well-designed and performed under controlled conditions, when in fact the tests being conducted were more like "I cut up a bunch of cardboard, then beat on the knife with a Ball Peen hammer to see how well it would cut plywood."

 

[komondor]

Interesting tests. Even more interesting responses.

I can't help but suspect many of the reactionary responses to the tests are due to the insecurity that a favorite brand of knife has apparently performed very poorly under hard use application.

If that's the case, suck it up. I have a Project I and it is the most expensive knife I own. I love the thing although I have not actually used it in the field yet. It is a tactical work of art-- like a H&K USP.

However, it appears as though it is not as tough as it has been historically presented. If Noss' tests are unbiased, and that he did not apply more shock here or more weight there, and that he did not fiddle with anything behind the scenes, then his results are disturbing.

I've always had a sort of awe for the Project I because it is an amazing chunk of steel-- to behold. Like I said, I haven't used it yet. I always thought it would be my shit hits the fan, survive at all costs, knife should such a scenario unfold.

I originally had a Busse Steel Heart. The E series. That was quite a chunk of steel also but cutting something with that edge and blade profile was like trying to cut something with an axe bit. Except an axe bit chops a lot better, of course. So yes, a knife like the Project I should be able to take more shock abuse than what appeared on the video. Much like a Busse should actually be able to slice better than an axe. After all, a Busse is still considered a "knife."

I believe the Project 1 can regularly withstand anything that would need to be applied in a survival situation. I would never baton a knife with anything other than another piece of wood. If you are batoning in the first place, it is because you are chopping into a piece of wood, so there will obviously be another piece of wood around.

I would imagine the prying strength of an integral one piece quarter-inch chunk of A2 to be quite hardy as well. And A2 heat-treated to under 60 should result in a durable edge that is mostly resistant to chipping.

I appreciate the tests Noss has performed and presented here. I think they say a lot about these different kinds of knives. Perhaps he uncovered a main weakness in the one-piece line, such as a lack of direct shock resistance. Again, I think it is somewhat disturbing given the overall properties of the knife.

If you want a better combination of slicing ability (Busse and like types) and overall toughness (CRK) then I would guess the Fallkniven A1 and A2 would be a smart choice. A lot less expensive, also.

Happy Holidays.

 

[Cobalt]

I am surprised at these tests as well. I expected more and from viewing the video, so did Noss, he was bummed and shocked. However, one damaged CRK A2 knife doesn't mean they are all like that. The other CRK knife was another type of steel. In any case, this should not steer anyone away from wanting to own that knife, you just know it's limitations and work within them.

Also, regardless of thickness you can put a screaming edge on any knife. Look at all the competition cutters with nearly 3/8 inch thickness, so don't believe people that certain brands don't cut, cuz they are full of crap and probably cannot sharpen a knife themselves. Get what you like and put the edge you want on it, or have someone do it for you if you can't.

 

[Fonly]

I am surprised at these tests as well. I expected more and from viewing the video, so did Noss, he was bummed and shocked. However, one damaged CRK A2 knife doesn't mean they are all like that. The other CRK knife was another type of steel. In any case, this should not steer anyone away from wanting to own that knife, you just know it's limitations and work within them.

Also, regardless of thickness you can put a screaming edge on any knife. Look at all the competition cutters with nearly 3/8 inch thickness, so don't believe people that certain brands don't cut, cuz they are full of crap and probably cannot sharpen a knife themselves. Get what you like and put the edge you want on it, or have someone do it for you if you can't.

While I haven't agreed with you alot before cobolt, you took the words out of my mouth this time. There is no reason a Thick knife can't cut, any knife can be sharpened, and I think your right, some complain about thickness only when they can't sharpen. Also not buying a CRK because of this review are ridiculous and are missing out.

Criticism is easy.... Testing something actually takes effort.

Too true, I've done it many times. I've looked at many run of the mill knives, some nicers than others, I also look at real world things Id put a knife through, there is obvioulsy no reason to put a knife through a cinder block, it might look cool but thats a useless feature. Anyone not buying a knife because it cant do that is a fool.

I'm in a P&V mood tonight and this post has gone way to long........SO.... I'm going to call it. Those who think the the test is silly, unscientific, a waste of time ( of which you have wasted a lot with your criticism) please feel free to show the rest of the world how you would do it.....

Come on show us..........

Some one send me a knife and I'll show what a REAL review on a knife looks like, I need to be able to depend on a knife If I need to. If my axe breaks my knife needs to be able to get me fire, make traps, shelter and what ever else I need, no cinder blocks and car hoods to go through, sorry guys. While its obvious many complain about that style of "review" its obvious why.Frankly Im too poor to go out and buy a knife that much, thats why I cant buy one and show my review.

BORS.......

It's always when the knife fails quick does everyone ask for a retest. When a popular brand knife does well no one ever asks for a retest. If the CRK did well

Thats not the case, Cold steel its a popular company when one of their knives breaks its no surprise, when a company such as Chris Reeve's however have a knife that breaks, yes it is shoking and yes another review is going to be requested, thats because they have a reputation and name that has been counted on, again, If CRK wants to send me a knife I will gladly show what it should be able to do.

And your right, its the knife didn't break no one would have said anything as thats what were used to seeing, when something that nice breaks, its odd and out place. Of course another review is wanted. To be fair, not many knives take a pounding from a 3 lbs hammer, so its usless for you to do it again anyways.

 

[komondor]

o don't believe people that certain brands don't cut, cuz they are full of crap and probably cannot sharpen a knife themselves. Get what you like and put the edge you want on it, or have someone do it for you if you can't.

There is no reason a Thick knife can't cut, any knife can be sharpened, and I think your right, some complain about thickness only when they can't sharpen.

Why should I waste time sharpening/reprofiling a $300 knife so that it is sharp enough to......cut?

Give me a freakin' break. Like I said, the Busse E series were stout knives that could chop well. Chop well for a knife that is. Axes are for chopping. Knives are for slicing. I could have sharpened it so it would have cut better, but not so that it would have cut as well as a knife should cut.

No biggie. What ever floats your boat.

 

[Cobalt]

Why should I waste time sharpening/reprofiling a $300 knife so that it is sharp enough to......cut?

Give me a freakin' break. Like I said, the Busse E series were stout knives that could chop well. Chop well for a knife that is. Axes are for chopping. Knives are for slicing. I could have sharpened it so it would have cut better, but not so that it would have cut as well as a knife should cut.

No biggie. What ever floats your boat.

well, speaking from a very knowledgeable point of view, having owned over 20 E-handled Busses, I can tell you, your wrong. In fact, I have one right now, BM-E, that has a stout edge on it and will out cut any big knife you own and the edge will last longer doing it(don't believe me? be at blade east 09, I'll be there and you can see for yourself). so you can sling that stuff elsewhere. I also have a factory SHBM, that came with 14 degrees per side from the factory. The guy that made the knife satin for me will attest to it.

Can't go wrong when you make a 1/4 inch thick knife flat ground. Pretty much every competition cutter made is built that way, so , Komondor, your saying that all competition cutters can't cut, because they are too thick.... hell by your standards the Bagwell Bowie would have the worst geometry of all since it has a thick blade with less width.

Thick knives can cut, don't let any fool tell you they can't. Ask Baily Bradshaw if his 0.34 inch thick comp cutter is dull.

Good way to derail the thread, however, komondor

BACK to TOPIC....for anyone feeling that they need to move their project 1, don't. Probably the best hollow handled knife ever made, and it has proven itself many times over, in the past, here on these forums by other members. It may not be the toughest, but it does what a knife was meant to do, CUT! Just don't use a steel hammer on it to baton, but I would not recommend that with any knife.

 

[Nuke41]

Then I say let's close this forum since is useless and open one called "real world reviews from soldiers"...

Well, that might be best. I was raised in the country and knives and edged tools were an every day facet of life, I continued to use edged tools as a hunter, outdoorsman and during a 21 year military career, and still carry a pocket knife with me when I have pants on. In all that time I probably never owned a knife or axe that cost more than $100, and in all those years I never had one fail, I wore them out from fair use and sharpening, but I the only thing I ever broke was a handle in my Uncle’s axe once, and although not upset, he told me the reason I broke it was because I misused it by taking a bad swing from a poor position, and he made me replace the handle myself, and I’ve never broken another axe handle.

What I learned as a young man was to use tools for what they are made for, and to take care of them. I used a knife as a knife, an axe as an axe, and an adze as an adze. Even as a young boy I knew a knife made a poor and short lived adze. I was appalled most of the time by how I saw edged tools being treated while I was in the military, but I quickly realized that most of my peers weren’t raised with knives, the military didn’t do a great job of teaching how to use them, and the fact they were free issue didn’t inspire most troops to care for what Uncle Sam had paid for. But in all my years in uniform I never saw such nonsense as the “testing” in those videos, if I had seen a troop of mine treating a knife like I see in those videos I’d have gone over and yanked their helmet off and clubed them like a baby seal with it for being such a damned fool. If you fellas want to go on tearing stuff up for the sake of proving that anything can be destroyed, then its your money, my experience tells me that virtually any knife will have a reasonable service life without failure if treated like a knife, and not as an axe, adze, pry bar, or anything else it wasn’t designed to be.

 

[nozh2002]

Well, that might be best. I was raised in the country and knives and edged tools were an every day facet of life, I continued to use edged tools as a hunter, outdoorsman and during a 21 year military career, and still carry a pocket knife with me when I have pants on. In all that time I probably never owned a knife or axe that cost more than $100, and in all those years I never had one fail, I wore them out from fair use and sharpening, but I the only thing I ever broke was a handle in my Uncle’s axe once, and although not upset, he told me the reason I broke it was because I misused it by taking a bad swing from a poor position, and he made me replace the handle myself, and I’ve never broken another axe handle.

What I learned as a young man was to use tools for what they are made for, and to take care of them. I used a knife as a knife, an axe as an axe, and an adze as an adze. Even as a young boy I knew a knife made a poor and short lived adze. I was appalled most of the time by how I saw edged tools being treated while I was in the military, but I quickly realized that most of my peers weren’t raised with knives, the military didn’t do a great job of teaching how to use them, and the fact they were free issue didn’t inspire most troops to care for what Uncle Sam had paid for. But in all my years in uniform I never saw such nonsense as the “testing” in those videos, if I had seen a troop of mine treating a knife like I see in those videos I’d have gone over and yanked their helmet off and clubed them like a baby seal with it for being such a damned fool. If you fellas want to go on tearing stuff up for the sake of proving that anything can be destroyed, then its your money, my experience tells me that virtually any knife will have a reasonable service life without failure if treated like a knife, and not as an axe, adze, pry bar, or anything else it wasn’t designed to be.

From what I read I see again that you did not really see this video.
I guess you are under impression of that mantar so many times was repeated here, because those tests are not what you just sad - "for the sake of proving that anything can be destroyed". And this is very clear to everybody who saw this video. Please, spend some time and watch it.

Once again - this is what was in that test:

I just write down step by step those "stupid and pointless destruction for entartainmet". See for yourself:

Let then goes over Noss4 video for Project I step by step to see this "knife destruction for entertaining".

He introduced knive - as A2 thick heavy duty one piece...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0H8EFC26vw

1. Peel apple, (I tests on potato) - shows basic ability to use knife for "fine" thing like food prparation, reasonable test and Project one doing all right.
2. Slice an apple - reaonable test to me - show that blade is bit too thick for fine slicing.
3. Cut 10000 pounf ribbon cutting
4. Control Cutting of 10 000 pound ribbon
5. Cut same with serration
6. Chopping 2x4 - not a good chopper according to Noss4. get some energy to do. not heavy enough...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZ2fT6pL4xQ

7. Cut 10000 ribbon after chopping - cut well no difference on the edge.
8. Batooning firewood hitting with wood - done.
9. Cutting Ribbon after batooning. - less sharp.
10. Tip break test on 2x4 "dig through" - perfect shape after testing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VmWJOAJB5I

11. Tip test on metal - snaped off very tip few mm but no any serious non fixable, compare holes with holes from other knife. Reasonable test for survival knife.
12. Batooning through 2x4 with 3 pound steel hummer

I would say he hit it very gently, defenetely without intention to destroy it with blade about 60 degree to wood) until at 8 minutes it breaks very easy without actually any hard hit and at the different point from where he did hit it with hummer, but near handle. Also it was clearly surprise for Noss4 he did not really expected this.

So is it stupid and pointless destruction for entertainment, unrepeatable etc, etc, etc?

 

[Hawkings]

Hehe just to put on some more fuel, did you watch the new one Noss did, with the hickory butcher knife. He hammers it in to a 2x4 for an hour.
Being as thick as a mora or close any way, it does not snap in 2 ..........