Chris Reeve Destrution Test On Youtube?

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I am still waiting for the loudest naysayers and "knives are only for cutting" folks to answer this question:

If knives are only intended for cutting, why would you want to use or advocate a knife that is not optimized for cutting? Knife designs like the Busse Combat Battle Mistresses or Chris Reeve Green Beret with their thick blades are not optimized for cutting. They are clearly a compromise by design, having been made thicker and of less acute edge to sacrifice cutting performance for durability in abusive use. If you just want to cut things, why the heck would you want to do it with a knife that's a quarter inch thick and heavy as all hell? Answer me that, because I would really like to know the answer. Because if it's just basic cutting tasks that we're doing, a 3€ Mora knife sharpened properly will outcut a $ 300 Chris Reeve Green Beret any time, and it will even be more ergonomically comfortable and lighter in hand, especially in the cold.

If I wanted to just cut things, I would never, ever choose something as enormously thick as a Chris Reeve Project I or a Busse Fusion Battle Mistress for the task. It's just not efficient. If I wanted to chop, hack, and pry stuff, then I would consider something like that, and have. But just for cutting? Why the heck? The value of these "hard-use" knives is in their versatility and durability.
 
Here's the problem with Noss' critics: they won't step up to the plate and offer tests of their own. It isn't Noss' burden to prove anything, but rather those who are critical. Yet for all the criticism he's gotten, I can't think of many folks offering anything more than speculation about the hows and whys the knives fail.

Here's the problem with Noss advocates; they ascribe more importance to these tests then is warranted, use these videos to make sweeping definitive statements about knives or steels in their posts, then argue vociferously about anyone who simply points out that these videos have limited value with their best comeback: "how come you don't have better testing" as their last argument.

You seem to be under the assumption that the tests are not repeatable. How do you draw this conclusion? Has anyone tried to repeat them?
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Yet when Noss comes up with a destruction story, with video evidence to boot, all of a sudden folks start yelling about science, standards become rigorous, and there's no shortage of folks willing to get nasty and personal. I'm all for the tone of the forum to go high road and intellectually honest. But c'mon. Does anybody want this to become a reality? Especially if it makes some esteemed/paying members/manufacturers look disingenuous?

"Nasty and personal"? Give me a break. Noss said himself that the videos are not scientific. So unless someone proves to you that they are not repeatable, by doing additional random smashing, you insist they are repeatable? Scientific = repeatable. Why do you think there are pages and pages of information and specs to even do the easiest ASTM tests? Because they want repeatablility. Why do you think every test specimen MUST be exactly the same in a charpy test? Repeatability, and they want to test the steel (not the sample). What reason do you have that would help explain how the failures shown in these videos are repeatable? I think the fanboys ought to get over it and accept that many here don't buy into the sweeping statements so often seen in bandwagon jumping portion of the threads.
 
It's deja vu all over again!

This was just like ole Cliff Stamp.

I see no one lifting a finger nor putting forth any effort to prove Noss4 is wrong OR to otherwise come up with their repeatable "scientific" testing. All I see is people hiding behind excuses.

You don't need precision "scientific" testing to show a knife is one or more magnitudes weaker then other knives.
 
Broos, I agree with you that making illogical conclusions about test results is silly.

However, respectfully I dont agree with the idea that tests have to be repeatable for useful insights to be gained. E.g. Consider the difficulty in testing taking shots at a tank with a 20mm cannon to see if it is survivable against that weapon. The more you think about this in detail and realise all the variables with this problem, the more you will see the truth in what Im saying. Repeatability indeed isnt always wanted in test design.

This is why I value Noss tests, and encourage others to do more testing too.
 
"Nasty and personal"? Give me a break.

Have you ever read these threads about Noss' tests?

Noss said himself that the videos are not scientific. So unless someone proves to you that they are not repeatable, by doing additional random smashing, you insist they are repeatable? Scientific = repeatable. Why do you think there are pages and pages of information and specs to even do the easiest ASTM tests? Because they want repeatablility. Why do you think every test specimen MUST be exactly the same in a charpy test? Repeatability, and they want to test the steel (not the sample). What reason do you have that would help explain how the failures shown in these videos are repeatable? I think the fanboys ought to get over it and accept that many here don't buy into the sweeping statements so often seen in bandwagon jumping portion of the threads.

Noss plays down the finality of his tests. This is a wise thing. However, I argue that his testing, though limited, is reasonable enough to be taken into account as a limited, and possibly representative sample.

Your argument over repeatability, on the other hand, is broken.

If I take a hammer and break a glass light bulb, can I conclude that lightbulbs will not withstand a blow from a hammer? Or would such a demonstration be deemed bad science because the tests are not repeatable, since the hammer blows are not finely calibrated and measured, as you argue? Of course not. But by your logic, such a test is not repeatable because the hammer blow isn't measured and made consistent. Even if you could break a thousand light bulbs with a hammer, you argue that the test would be neither scientific nor repeatable. And would be wrong on both accounts.

Any evaluation is done with the best tools available. This has always been the case. And has sometimes led to very wrong results. There are certainly more precise ways to quantify the light bulb failure point exemplified in the previous hypothetical. But more precision isn't really necessary for most folks. And there is no reason to believe that the tests Noss performs are misleading or false.

Now if Noss were to take the same hammer and break a knife instead of a light bulb, even on a single sample, I'm willing to believe that it's more than likely representative than not because knives tend to be fairly consistent. Breaking multiple samples in the same way would be more scientific. Breaking more samples in a precisely quantified way even more so. But I tend to think that such precision is not really necessary. Now, any or all of the knives Noss has tested may be flukes. But flukes tend to be, well, flukes-not very common occurrences. It is therefore not unreasonable to conclude that the testing Noss performs and documents are satisfactory for our general purposes.

One question. Would anyone in the market for one of the knives Noss has tested actually refuse to find out how it performed, because his tests are not scientific enough? Especially if one wants a "bombproof" style knife, as these knives are often marketed as?
 
I don't know why the placement of hammer blows is so important. If anyone, for whatever crazy reason, needs to hit a knife with a hammer in some real world situation, then they aren't going to be any more precise than Noss is on the videos. If these are brutal hard use tools for high speed operators in the roughest terrain on God's green earth, then they need a high level of survivability, no? They need to survive use in human hands, with human imprecision.
 
And that brings us to the other reason your logic is problematic, namely advertising. CRK is one among many companies that produce "hard use knives". All the cliche phrases praising "to hell and back reliability" or being "tough as nails" are thrown about in an effort to sell. Just glancing over CRK's website I see things like "optimum performance", "efficient, tough, exceptional". For the green beret specifically, we have "no nonsense hardworking tool" and "uncompromising". And to top it off, in regards to the hollow handled knives, it explicitly says that the buttcap was designed to be used as a hammer. So we have the company themselves stating that their knives were in fact designed for activities other than what one would traditionally expect out of a knife.

The sad part of all this is that knifemakers are not providing this information in a scientific manner so we know exactly what we are buying. Don't blame Noss. Blame the industry for hiding behind its own hype.

+1000000

This reminds me of the glock koolaid...
I guess I am clueless with all this "hype" and "koolaid" talk mentioned by a few. Maybe I need to keep a closer eye on the industry in general. Which companies/individuals are you guys speaking of?
 
I guess I am clueless with all this "hype" and "koolaid" talk mentioned by a few. Maybe I need to keep a closer eye on the industry in general. Which companies/individuals are you guys speaking of?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BItmW98M9mc&feature=related

In the video a Zero tolerance rep makes statements about the how their knives are very tough and strong and how they can save your life in the toughest most demanding conditions. He says how you can beat on them pry with them break through doors with them and shoot them with a Glock and not break them.

This all may be very true but it does generate a ton of hype around these knives. Hype is promoting false misleading information about a product just to sell it to a particular sector of the market place. I'm not accusing ZT of this at all of course but when makers do all their testing behind closed doors people will ask questions is this really true or not ?
 
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I obviously can not speak for any manufacturer. I'm not an expert in the quality of steel beyond what I read about. I found the test videos interesting in seeing where a knife fails. I doubt many who own high end knives would find themselves using a sledge hammer to pound their knife into anything. But I get the point of the tests, HOW MUCH can this knive endure before failure.

I'm not sure the testing is fair though. My single observation would be that a single specimen represents an entire line. I for one can not afford to destroy 3 Project One knives, let alone one really.

How many of the knive tests have been done on multiple samples of the same knife? If the knife has a failure point, it should be the same each time.

The cost of testing knives by small batches would be crazy but I think the results would be more easily digested.:D
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BItmW98M9mc&feature=related

In the video a Zero tolerance rep makes statements about the how their knives are very tough and strong and how they can save your life in the toughest most demanding conditions. He says how you can beat on them pry with them break through doors with them and shoot them with a Glock and not break them.

This all may be very true but it does generate a ton of hype around these knives...
If anyone would know Steve, they would understand that he is an honorable individual. I should note, that all the references he makes about that particular knife consisted of tests that he conducted personally. Now he didn't record the events, and I didn't witness them, so I guess everyone will have to take him at his word.;) I'm unsure a youtube video taken randomly at the SHOT Show qualifies as a "ton" of hype, but perhaps to some it does.

Hype is promoting false misleading information about a product just to sell it to a particular sector of the market place. I'm not accusing ZT of this at all of course but when makers do all their testing behind closed doors people will ask questions is this really true or not ?
Of course, but what I was asking is what manufacturer/individual are promoting false misleading info to the public that is not adding up?

It's one thing to have some fluff built into some ad copy or a catalog, but false misleading information falls into a different category, at least in my eyes. Other than a select few, I'm not sure I have even seen factories/individuals shout from the roof tops the hype described by earlier threads.
 
From what i see these tests are much the same thing as is being accused of the knifemakers, they are all Hype. and I'll say it again..... It's sad that some good knifemakers could potentially be hurt by the misleading info construed from these tests.

If you want to see a knife destroyed for entertainment purposes...thats one thing and fine.... but to base knife purchases on them and claim that they are anything other than knives being destroyed for fun is simply rediculous.

The 15 Minutes of fame rule expired long ago and i for one dont see why we have to keep seeing threads like this every few months, as they clearly are just arguments for arguments sake.

The "Hammer of Truth" pounds both ways.
 
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It's one thing to have some fluff built into some ad copy or a catalog, but false misleading information falls into a different category, at least in my eyes. Other than a select few, I'm not sure I have even seen factories/individuals shout from the roof tops the hype described by earlier threads.

You just described the problem right there and didn't even know it. "Fluff". There's no reason for it to be there. Fluff is simply another word for dishonesty. Either a product performs as advertised or it doesn't. If someone describes a product as having "uncompromising toughness" (sidebar: toughness in this context doesn't really have anything to do with cutting, therefore they are stating that their knives are made to stand up to things other than cutting) then there is no excuse for it to fail long before a much cheaper knife that makes none of the same assertions.


Any new discovery is documented and written in the form of a research article sent to a peer reviewed journal (for my field: The American Journal of Sports Medicine, The Journal of Bone and Joint Surgery, etc) who then repeat the tests to confirm or deny the results.

Well lets see. Two knives from CRK were tested with the same procedure that all other brand knives were subjected to. These two knives were completely different models. Both knives broke in the same place at roughly the same amount of time. They were sent back to the maker who affirmed that they were not defective.

So there you have a repeated test with the same results.
 
From what i see these tests are much the same thing as is being accused of the knifemakers, they are all Hype. and I'll say it again..... It's sad that some good knifemakers could potentially be hurt by the misleading info construed from these tests.

By definition hype is a bunch of statements that are untrue. These are videos and not statements. What conclusions people draw from then is one thing, but I don't believe Noss offers any conclusions himself. He simply tests the knives and films it. Therefore its simply an impossibility for there to be hype here.

So with that in mind, what information is "misleading" here. Is Noss using a 5 lb sledge for other knives and a 10 lb sledge on the CRK knives? Does he beat on them off camera? Does he mess with the heat treat prior to testing?

Please share this info because I'd really like to know.
 
They are weak, fragile knives. The worst performers in the tests. If one wants a tough knife then look some where else than CRK.

Hows that for a statement and a conclusion, a blanket statement even, if i were CRK i'd be doing something about it. It's one thing to be posting that type of garbage on his own site... but to do it in public is another matter altogether.

Stage2 said:
So with that in mind, what information is "misleading" here. Is Noss using a 5 lb sledge for other knives and a 10 lb sledge on the CRK knives? Does he beat on them off camera? Does he mess with the heat treat prior to testing?

Who Knows what he does, other than pound knive into oblivion, does he apply his considerable weight on every knife evenly? or lean on one laterally more than another? Does he hit them all with equal amounts of force? These things would lead one to believe what HIS bias's and motivations are nothing other than getting his 15 minutes of fame/notoriety.
 
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Hows that for a statement, a blanket statement even, if i were CRK i'd be doing something about it. It's one thing to be posting that type of garbage on his own site... but to do it in public is another matter altogether.

At this point it's the only conclusion I can come to. There is nothing else showing me otherwise.

And this is the testing review forum here. So if you can't handle it. Then bail out.

You have you opinion on these knives. I have mine also. I based it on my tests.
 
At this point it's the only conclusion I can come to. There is nothing else showing me otherwise.

And this is the testing review forum here. So if you can't handle it. Then bail out.

You have you opinion on these knives. I have mine also. I based it on my tests.

Conclusions based on what, that you are tougher than a knife when you are weilding a hammer? It's one thing to come to your own conclusions, but to try to influence others with these so called "tests" and claim that they are anything other than giving you attention is just wrong.

Your "test" thread was posted here, and Responded to....I sugget that if you you can't handle it....Then you Bail.
 
Hows that for a statement and a conclusion, a blanket statement even, if i were CRK i'd be doing something about it. It's one thing to be posting that type of garbage on his own site... but to do it in public is another matter altogether.

Fair enough. But here's the rub. Everything he does to the knives is posted for everyone to see. That means they may or may not come to the same conclusion. No one is playing hide the ball here.

And thats the problem with your statement. If everyone is seeing everything he is doing, then there isn't anything that is misleading.



Who Knows what he does, other that pound knive into oblivion, does he apply his considerable weight on every knife evenly? or lean on one laterally more than another? Does he hit them all with equal amounts of force? These things would lead one to believe what HIS bias's and motivations are other than getting his 15 minutes of fame/notoriety.

So in otherwords you don't have any evidence that suggests he doesn't treat any one knife differently than all the others. I really love the irony here. You are accusing him of throwing in personal bias and yet your accusations are founded on nothing but personal bias.
 
At this point I don't know what else to say here. This going to go round and round like always. I'm not going keep repeating myself here.

If Some of you science guys have all the answers then you need to produce some of your own tests.

I have been going at this for 2 years and have made the call for the science crowd to produce tests for the last 2 years by the standards they preach. To date not one single scientific destruction test has been produced by you people. :thumbdn:

Critics are critics nothing more.
 
Fair enough. But here's the rub. Everything he does to the knives is posted for everyone to see. That means they may or may not come to the same conclusion. No one is playing hide the ball here.

And thats the problem with your statement. If everyone is seeing everything he is doing, then there isn't anything that is misleading.

So in otherwords you don't have any evidence that suggests he doesn't treat any one knife differently than all the others. I really love the irony here. You are accusing him of throwing in personal bias and yet your accusations are founded on nothing but personal bias.

What is misleading are his so called conclusions and statements, I gave him every opportunity to show me a reason why i should listen to him, rather than draw my own conclusions about a knife, and have yet to see why i should. I am not Biased against or for any particular manufacturer or tester and if i want to see this type of test i can easily look up the old american tourister commercials. what i have a problem with is his biasing of people by claiming these tests are anything other that attention getting for himself, and that good people, trying to earn a living by making knives may be hurt by his baseless accusations.

Noss4 said:
Critics are critics nothing more.
and so are cry's for attention.
 
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