Chris Reeve Destrution Test On Youtube?

[noss4]

Conclusions based on what, that you are tougher than a knife when you are weilding a hammer? It's one thing to come to your own conclusions, but to try to influence others with these so called "tests" and claim that they are anything other than giving you attention is just wrong.

Your "test" thread was posted here, and Responded to....I sugget that if you you can't handle it....Then you Bail.

I have 2 tests on CRK knives. You have zero. I don't try to influence others. I produce the tests. I make my conclusions. What people do with the info is up to them. No one is forced to watch the tests. They come at their own free will.

 

[theonew]

Karda, I think ultimately a lot of good could come out of these tests, say perhaps a Project I in 3V

But seriously I really don't think you have to worry about CRK, they are a great company with a solid reputation, they even just made the cover of Blade Magazine. If the thoughts and opinions expressed here had such a tremendous effect on the market, Cold Steel would have been out of biz a long time ago.

 

[Thomas W]

You just described the problem right there and didn't even know it.

I guess I didn't even realize there was a "problem", thanks for opening my eyes.

"Fluff". There's no reason for it to be there. Fluff is simply another word for dishonesty. Either a product performs as advertised or it doesn't...

Of course it needs to be there, and no it's not dishonest, this of course is just my humble opinion. I just happen to believe there is a huge difference in fluffy creative writing, and hype that can't be lived up to. You of course can have your own opinion on the matter, but consider the following example:

A Master of his trade, Ken Onion, is one of the most-sought-after custom knife-makers in the industry. His custom knives can be found in the most prestigious private knife collections as well as in the pockets of his world-wide following.

There are fluff words like Master, most-sought-after, prestigious, and world-wide. Dishonest...I don't think so, and yet what would the copy really say without them?

How bout this simple one:

The Kershaw Shallot series offers a longer 4 3/8" handle made of 410 steel and a 3 1/2" blade. Built with the latest SpeedSafe manual assisted technology, this knife's blade is built for multi-tasking and top performance. The Sandvik 13C26 stainless steel contributes high durability and edge retention.

Fluffy, of course, dishonest, again I don't think so.

Interpretation with copy and ads lies within each one of us, and in the end this interpretation can possibly be a determining factor in whether the words and product equal each other. There of course is a very fine line with all of this, but a bit of common sense perspective goes a long way.

As I stated before, I still am unaware of anyone purposely coming forth with distorted hype that their products can't live up to.

Sorry if we have gotten off track from the intended purpose of this thread.

 

[nifegrinder]

This might be the biggest mistake of my career (@ CRK) but here goes:

I didn't watch all of Noss' test but I think I got the gist of it.

I didn't care for the overall tone and attitude of the video, or the personality (sorry Noss, but honestly; do you really care?), so as far as entertainment value goes; not my thing.

I didn't really learn anything that I couldn't have guessed on my own, but I have knowledge and training in knife making and design that the average youtube surfer doesn't. If he had written to me and explained his intentions, I would have shipped his knives with safety glasses; knowing that they would break and that he could be hurt by flying debris.

I didn't really have a problem with how the test was conducted and I didn't need the numbers. My main problem was in finding the relevancy of his supposition.

Helicopters, ATV's, mountain bikes and hiking boots can all be used get a person into remote wilderness areas but they are not comparable as modes of transportation. Each has advantages and disadvantages over the others.

These TOOLS are designed, and the people who create them are looking at a lot of factors: quality and characteristics of available materials, level of manufacturing sophistication, needs of the end user, needs of the design, economics, skill and experience of the designers.

Every time a decision is made in one direction, you decide against another direction.

The Green Beret Knife had to meet some precise design, production and cost requirements:
It had to be serrated, stain resistant, non reflective, light weight, hold a good edge and re-sharpen easily in the field, meet a target strength standard, be made in America, look good & feel good, and be manufactured to a very high standard of quality.
In addition, ramp up on production was insane, and they weren't going to pay much.

Why don't the Reeves seem too concerned with Noss? After meeting all of these requirements, the knife was tested in the field by the United States Special Forces.

Tom Clancy had a quote from a drill sergeant in one of his books that went something like this: "pass this course and you'll never have to prove yourself to anyone, but to pass this course you have to prove yourself to me."

Chris Reeve, Bill Harsey and Chris Reeve Knives earned the special forces order with the Yarborough/Green Beret knife.

Truth is, I like knives and knife makers. When my competitors do well; I'm happy for them. If their customers are satisfied I'm even happier. And if they can teach me something, I'm happiest.

Smart consumers think about their needs and research the products that fit them. Serrations, stain resistance, high hardness, and lighter weight are just a few options that will compromise a crowbar or cold chisel. But have you ever tried to cut wet web gear or climbing rope with a crow bar? In a fire fight, would you rather have an extra 2lbs of knife or ammo?

P.S. I may work for the Reeves but I do not represent them in this forum. These oppinions are my own. :foot:

 

[nozh2002]

This might be the biggest mistake of my career (@ CRK) but here goes:

I didn't watch all of Noss' test but I think I got the gist of it.

I didn't care for the overall tone and attitude of the video, or the personality (sorry Noss, but honestly; do you really care?), so as far as entertainment value goes; not my thing.

I didn't really learn anything that I couldn't have guessed on my own, but I have knowledge and training in knife making and design that the average youtube surfer doesn't. If he had written to me and explained his intentions, I would have shipped his knives with safety glasses; knowing that they would break and that he could be hurt by flying debris.

I didn't really have a problem with how the test was conducted and I didn't need the numbers. My main problem was in finding the relevancy of his supposition.

Helicopters, ATV's, mountain bikes and hiking boots can all be used get a person into remote wilderness areas but they are not comparable as modes of transportation. Each has advantages and disadvantages over the others.

These TOOLS are designed, and the people who create them are looking at a lot of factors: quality and characteristics of available materials, level of manufacturing sophistication, needs of the end user, needs of the design, economics, skill and experience of the designers.

Every time a decision is made in one direction, you decide against another direction.

The Green Beret Knife had to meet some precise design, production and cost requirements:
It had to be serrated, stain resistant, non reflective, light weight, hold a good edge and re-sharpen easily in the field, meet a target strength standard, be made in America, look good & feel good, and be manufactured to a very high standard of quality.
In addition, ramp up on production was insane, and they weren't going to pay much.

Why don't the Reeves seem too concerned with Noss? After meeting all of these requirements, the knife was tested in the field by the United States Special Forces.

Tom Clancy had a quote from a drill sergeant in one of his books that went something like this: "pass this course and you'll never have to prove yourself to anyone, but to pass this course you have to prove yourself to me."

Chris Reeve, Bill Harsey and Chris Reeve Knives earned the special forces order with the Yarborough/Green Beret knife.

Truth is, I like knives and knife makers. When my competitors do well; I'm happy for them. If their customers are satisfied I'm even happier. And if they can teach me something, I'm happiest.

Smart consumers think about their needs and research the products that fit them. Serrations, stain resistance, high hardness, and lighter weight are just a few options that will compromise a crowbar or cold chisel. But have you ever tried to cut wet web gear or climbing rope with a crow bar? In a fire fight, would you rather have an extra 2lbs of knife or ammo?

P.S. I may work for the Reeves but I do not represent them in this forum. These oppinions are my own. :foot:

So if it was so hard to make it tough - why Busse went through all those tests and did not fail? With same price tag and same everything else you just had to deliver in expense of toughness? Why other knives pass and CR fail?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[STAGE 2]

What is misleading are his so called conclusions and statements, I gave him every opportunity to show me a reason why i should listen to him, rather than draw my own conclusions about a knife, and have yet to see why i should.

Then you dont get it. No one is asking anyone to accept anyone elses conclusions about a knife. If you disagree with Noss thats fine. However what you cant disagree with are the videos.

The simple fact is that both of CRK's products failed in a similar fashion even though they were two different designs. If that is acceptable performance for you, great. You probably aren't the demographic that he is testing for. There are some people, however, who do want to see the failure point of a knife, or alternatively, how much abuse a knife can take and still be functional.

CRK themselves stated there were no defects in the knives, so that rules out that possibility. Therefore the only thing that remains is that CRK's products are not as tough as other offerings on the market.

what i have a problem with is his biasing of people by claiming these tests are anything other that attention getting for himself, and that good people, trying to earn a living by making knives may be hurt by his baseless accusations.

Now I'm really confused. You and others that have defended CRK have used their own personal experience as a basis for their opinion. So your personal experience is valid, but his isn't even though its put out there for all to see. Define hypocrisy.

As far as makers getting hurt by this, any backlash is solely on them. There are plenty of makers that place caveats on ther knives stating that they are only cutting tools and not meant for hammering, prying, etc. CRK and others don't. They advertise ther products as being extreme hard use knives. Thus, they are the ones who set the bar, not the knife buying public. If the product doesn't meet the hype its on them.

 

[Thomas W]

CRK and others don't. They advertise ther products as being extreme hard use knives. Thus, they are the ones who set the bar, not the knife buying public. If the product doesn't meet the hype its on them.

Whom are you speaking of other than CRK?

Other than Noss's test, have there been complaints that the CRK doesn't live up to your idea of hype?

 

[STAGE 2]

Of course it needs to be there, and no it's not dishonest, this of course is just my humble opinion.

Why does it need to be there? There are plenty of companies and plenty of knifemakers who sell their product sans fluff either because they don't have fruity advertising, or because their product matches up with the advertising (busse, scrapyard, individual makers).

I just happen to believe there is a huge difference in fluffy creative writing, and hype that can't be lived up to. You of course can have your own opinion on the matter, but consider the following example:

A Master of his trade, Ken Onion, is one of the most-sought-after custom knife-makers in the industry. His custom knives can be found in the most prestigious private knife collections as well as in the pockets of his world-wide following.

There are fluff words like Master, most-sought-after, prestigious, and world-wide. Dishonest...I don't think so, and yet what would the copy really say without them?

But thats not the type of fluff we are talking about. "Master" and all the rest aren't quantifiable. They are all purely opinion. Whether something is "most sought after" depends on who you talk to, not any independent standard.

How bout this simple one:

The Kershaw Shallot series offers a longer 4 3/8" handle made of 410 steel and a 3 1/2" blade. Built with the latest SpeedSafe manual assisted technology, this knife's blade is built for multi-tasking and top performance. The Sandvik 13C26 stainless steel contributes high durability and edge retention.

Fluffy, of course, dishonest, again I don't think so.

Well, it depends. The properties of a particular steel ARE quantifiable. If 13C26 is highly durable and has good edge retention, then thats not fluff. If it doesn't, than its dishonest. Case in point, flip through any catalogue that carries made in china stuff and you will see all sorts of descriptions that would be laughed off of this forum. Thats because they are dishonest.

CRK falls into a subset of knives that are marketed as hard use products. Thus there is an expectation that these knives should be able to withstand more abuse than knives which aren't in this category. As I said earlier, it is fully within the control of the knifemaker to put caveats on what their knives are intended to be used for. Doug Ritter makes no bones about this with his fixed blade. CRK however, did not do this. Instead they spend most of their time on their time on the website talking about how tough their products are. Therefore for both of CRK's to fail so early and under only mild treatment runs contrary to everything they advertise.

As I stated before, I still am unaware of anyone purposely coming forth with distorted hype that their products can't live up to.

If you are going to be honest here, you must admit that the performance of the CRK knives did not come anywhere close to what the advertising says. There is simply no excuse for such expensive knives to be soundly surpassed by knives which make no such contentions as to toughness and cost anywhere from half to a quarter as much.

If that isn't living up to their reputation then I don't know what is.

 

[STAGE 2]

Other than Noss's test, have there been complaints that the CRK doesn't live up to your idea of hype?

I don't know that anyone would spend $200-300 and test it to failure. This is especially so considering that a very large portion of the knife buying community doesn't use a majority of the knives that they purchase. How many people on this board have you seen that have collections full of safe queens.

Therefore it shouldn't come as vey much of a surprise that folks aren't getting anywhere near the failure point when half don't even take their knives into the field for even acceptable use.

 

[Karda]

So basically the gist of what i'm getting from this is:

Noss likes to stir up controversy with his tests, he likes to stir up controversy while gaining himself Notoriety, He likes to Claim He's fighting Hype while using Hype of his own to Potentially Bias others into not buying knives that fail his so called "tests".
Anyone who disagrees gets browbeaten....no exceptions.

I cant help but think he does more harm to the knifemaking community than good.

So explain to me why i should even consider listening to him, as he is clearly no better that the people he is claiming to be fighting against.

 

[theonew]

nifegrinder I really hope you don't get in trouble at CRK, it would be really great to have a regular contributor from CRK around more often. I do have a question though.

Given this,

The Green Beret Knife had to meet some precise design, production and cost requirements:
It had to be serrated, stain resistant, non reflective, light weight, hold a good edge and re-sharpen easily in the field, meet a target strength standard, be made in America, look good & feel good, and be manufactured to a very high standard of quality.

I'm curious why you went with S30V, over say a non-stainless steel blade. The only thing in that list which seems to ask for S30V is stain resistance but the blades were to be coated anyway if only to be non-reflective. For ease of sharpening in the field, S30V is also pretty far on the not side than so many other choices. Also, from charts I've seen from Crucible, S30V was never really promoted for its toughness. Was brittleness ever a concern? I mean these are large bladed knives, that surely were expected to see rougher than average use and should therefore be extremely fracture and impact resistant I would think. I'm really curious about the steel selection process and would appreciate any light you could shine on it.

 

[STAGE 2]

He likes to Claim He's fighting Hype while using Hype of his own to Potentially Bias others into not buying knives that fail his so called "tests".

How is filming a video "hype". Words are hype. Assertions are hype. Unfounded claims are hype. A video recording of real life events is just that, a recording. So how is that hype

Anyone who disagrees gets browbeaten....no exceptions.

So far I've seen "noss is an idiot", "noss is here for attention", "these tests are stupid" etc. And yet those of us who see value in these tests are "browbeating"?

So explain to me why i should even consider listening to him, as he is clearly no better that the people he is claiming to be fighting against.

I can't remember if this is the 3rd or 4th time I've said this, but celarly it hasn't set in so I'll say it again. You shouldn't consider listening to him These tests clearly aren't for you.

I'll explain this with an anology. Not everyone who purchases a car does so for its safety. Thus some aren't going to care about the crash results. Not everyone who purchases a car does so for gas mileage. Thus some aren't going to care about mpg. Not everyone who purchases a car does so for reliability. Thus some won't care whether a car has problems with its electrical system.

Likewise, not every person who purchases a knife does so for its toughness. Therefore they won't care whether Noss broke a knife easily or not. But just because they don't doesn't mean everyone doesn't as well.

In otherwords, its perfectly fine that you don't care about these tests. However that doesn't mean the test aren't valid, just inapplicable.

 

[Izan]

Noss don't do anything but beat on knives until they break in a variety of ways, period. The acclaimed FBM even broke for god sakes. So the CRK is not "designed for that kind of use." Well what is it designed for then? Peeling apples? Cleaning your teeth? As far as basic cutting goes, who in the hell is going to use a 7" blade that is .25" thick to whiddle wood in the back yard?

The CRK broke being hit with a metal hammer in an attempt to chop a 2x4, deal with it. Also deal with the fact a $10 Cheaper than dirt knife did not.

Talk about science or whatever, the steel was faulty, bla bla bla, it broke and so did ALOT or other knives, but none on the 2x4 test.

There are people who like knives for a shitload of different reasons. Some of you like knives that are used by the military, some like knives that are used in movies, some like knives that are handmade by some old dude that lives in a log cabin in Montana. Point is at the end of the day we ALL just like knives!

If you want to rub your Busse or Benchmade or CR blade with the finest silk in the world, fine I don't care. But if you are going to pound the shit out of your knife and use it for reasons other that cutting tonights dinner, than Noss' testing can give you a base to start from when looking for a knife that can handle that abuse.

 

[STAGE 2]

Why don't the Reeves seem too concerned with Noss? After meeting all of these requirements, the knife was tested in the field by the United States Special Forces.

Can you specify what "testing" went on? I ask because while I have the utmost respect for the men in uniform, most grunts, special forces or otherwise, aren't really knife folks. Therefore their opinions aren't really valuable where a technical knife discussion is concerned.

 

[Karda]

Hype comes in many different forms not just words
I claim that his "tests" ,assertions and Claims are Hype intended for the sole purpose of gaining him notoriety and attention and i see right thru it. I still can't see where he's doing the knife community any good. and i still cant see where he's any better than the so called evils he is supposedly fighting. So his tests would be mostly in the Inapplicable category, and give no real base to start from other than Knives break from repeated sensless abuse.

 

[STAGE 2]

Hype comes in many different forms not just words

No it doesn't. Actions can't be hype because they happened. Hype is the lack of something happening.

I claim that his "tests" ,assertions and Claims are Hype intended for the sole purpose of gaining him notoriety and attention and i see right thru it.

Well, to know that you would have to be able to read his mind. Are you clairvoyant?

I still can't see where he's doing the knife community any good.

Where did he say he was doing this for the betterment of the knife community? If anything he seems to be doing it for the consumer.

and i still cant see where he's any better than the so called evils he is supposedly fighting.

Then you are intentionally sticking your head in the sand. If you can't see the difference between an unsubstantiated or ambiguous claim (i.e. this is a extremely tough knife) and a test with repeatable results there really isn't any more to say. You're just being intentionally obstinant and there isn't reasoning with someone like that.

So his tests would be mostly in the Inapplicable category, and give no real base to start from other than Knives break from repeated sensless abuse.

Everything breaks from sensless abuse. Thats not the issue. The issue is at what point do they break. Noss answers this question. You see even if I were to agree with you that there isn't any hype surrounding these knives, there would still be massive amounts of ambiguity. What does "uncompromising" mean. What does "extremely tough" mean. Who really knows.

Well, after beating on these knives, we know. Thats really valuable information.

And as an aside it is really disingenuous to simply categorize what noss does as only destroying knives. If memory serves he begins with fairly innocuous stuff like cardboard, rope, webbing and chopping wood. Thats hardly destruction.

 

[Karda]

No it doesn't. Actions can't be hype because they happened. Hype is the lack of something happening.

I guess so in your narrow view.

Well, to know that you would have to be able to read his mind. Are you clairvoyant?

Maybe, maybe not.... but i still see what these tests really are.

Where did he say he was doing this for the betterment of the knife community? If anything he seems to be doing it for the consumer.

As consumers we are all part of the knife community. and his claims tend to mislead the uninformed.

Then you are intentionally sticking your head in the sand. If you can't see the difference between an unsubstantiated or ambiguous claim (i.e. this is a extremely tough knife) and a test with repeatable results there really isn't any more to say. You're just being intentionally obstinant and there isn't reasoning with someone like that.

I am not the only one then,huh... I still say these "tests' are nonsense and that you people browbeat anyone who doesnt agree with your perceptions.

Everything breaks from sensless abuse. Thats not the issue. The issue is at what point do they break. Noss answers this question. You see even if I were to agree with you that there isn't any hype surrounding these knives, there would still be massive amounts of ambiguity. What does "uncompromising" mean. What does "extremely tough" mean. Who really knows.

Well, after beating on these knives, we know. Thats really valuable information.

And as an aside it is really disingenuous to simply categorize what noss does as only destroying knives. If memory serves he begins with fairly innocuous stuff like cardboard, rope, webbing and chopping wood. Thats hardly destruction.

I never said that makers do not make their various claims. I only stated that Noss4 does the same thing about his tests, which makes him no better. His extrapolations from these tests should in no way deserve to be called informative to the public,as they are clearly just someone on youtube who is smashing knives....anyone can do that and claim they are providing a public service...
I find it highly ironic that Noss4 and company cant take the same abuse that they put these knives and the rest of us thru.

 

[STAGE 2]

I guess so in your narrow view.

My view has nothing to do with. Everyone knows what the definition of hype is so playing semantics is kind of silly on your part.

Maybe, maybe not.... but i still see what these tests really are.

Then I'd like to know next weeks lotto numbers cause this whole working thing is very overrated.

As consumers we are all part of the knife community. and his claims tend to mislead the uninformed.

Really? Do you have any evidence of this? Can you point to anyone "duped" by his testing? Are you saying that there are people that rely on his conclusions alone without watching the videos? Is it his fault if people decide not to watch the videos?

Thats the problem with your theory. You've created a premise (that people are being misled) without bothering to actually see if its true.

I am not the only one then,huh... I still say these "tests' are nonsense and that you people browbeat anyone who doesnt agree with your perceptions.

Me: "These tests aren't going to be relevant or applicable to everyone"
You: "These tests are nonsense and no one should pay any attention to them"

So who is browbeating who?

I never said that makers do not make their various claims. I only stated that Noss4 does the same thing about his tests, which makes him no better.

In this single sentence you stated exactly why your position isn't defensible. You are comparing the claims of one to the test of another. Thus, in your mind they are on equal footing.

This may come as a shock but there are many people who don't give equal weight to these two. 5 minutes of real world testing is worth more than a lifetime of BS.

His extrapolations from these tests should in no way deserve to be called informative to the public,as they are clearly just someone on youtube who is smashing knives....anyone can do that and claim they are providing a public service...

Ok, lets go with that for a minute. Lets completely ignore what Noss says. You still have the videos. You still have clear documentary evidence of not one, but two CRK knives of different design and different steel failing at the same time under the same test which other knives passed with relative ease.

Now you can sit there and pretend that doesn't mean anything or you can be honest and say that it seems that certian knives take abuse better than others.

I find it highly ironic that Noss4 and company cant take the same abuse that they put these knives and the rest of us thru.

I dont know Noss, never communicated with him, or associated with him in any way. That said I'm fairly certian that he doesn't lose any sleep over the fact that some knife owners have their panties in a wad. If I was him, I'd have a chuckle knowing how much I've gotten under the skin of some and then keep on with what I was doing all the more satisfied.

The reason I've posted in this thread is because I think its the height of arrogance for one person to tell another what they should think, or value or conclude. You don't find it worth while, thats fine. Just don't sit around and proclaim that they are useless for all. Last I checked, the poll regarding these tests was going 78 to 22 in favor of these being informative so it seems you are both incorrect as well as in a small minority.

But if you want ironic, how about the fact that anytime his testing is brought up, the same usual suspects arrive to talk about how stupid and useless they are. This of course begs the question, if they are in fact stupid and useless why are you wasting your time posting in said thread. No doubt you'll say that he's misleading people and you are just trying to stop that.

Well that takes us to the final paradox of the night. If these tests are as stupid as you say then you don't have any reason to worry about anyone being misled. Honestly, we are talking about a garage monkey wearing a hockey mask. How persuasive can he be right? So if Noss isnt fooling anyone and yet people are still taking interest in these tests that means there must be some other reason.

But that would mean that some people find them valuable, and we all know thats ridiculous

 

[paua]

Can not believe how thick those self-proclaimed scientists and engineers can be. Whether a knife will fail in some application has nothing to do with science, logic, or history. It’s an incident. Can US Special Forces' acceptance stop a knife from been broken? Can all the reasoning and justification of the world change the fact that some knife failed during practice?

 

[Karda]

You believe as you wish.
Our opinions differ that is all.
have fun with the circus chacanery.
Just dont expect me to believe it, or respect you for it.
The world is full of gullible people.