Cold Steel= flat out liars

Oh come on Shecky, stop messing around. Tell everyone you're just joking around.

You were. . .just joking around. . .right? ;)
 
shecky said:
I can see that point. But I think it is wanting. AFAIK, even Spyderco started manufacturing knives from the very beginning in Japan. Domestic in-house production began later. Would you write off their first models because they didn't have their own shop?

I agree, it's probably a good thing for a knife manufacturer to have lots of "hands on" experience. But the end result is what should be judged, not the experience of the maker.

Furthermore, CS seems to be a bit more than a marketing firm (which I sense you mean to be derogatory). They also seem to design at least a few knives. Arrange to have them manufactured. And sell them. The same thing Spyderco does with many of their models.
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True, Spyderco did start out having their knives made by the Sakai company in Seki-City, Japan, but they have since made "the leap" and opened their own factory. Has Cold Steel? Again, apples and oranges. I just don't think you are capable of accepting the fact that Spyderco, unlike Cold Steel, actually makes knives. Would it help if I asked Sal if you could take a tour their factory, you know, to prove it really exists? Did I mention that Spyderco also has a walk-in factory outlet, you know, a store, right there at their headquarters? Cold Steel has one of those, too, right?

Tell you what. You contact Cold Steel and set up a tour for me of their factory. While I'm there, I'd also like to check out their factory outlet.;)
 
shecky said:
The most ridiculous criticism that always seems to be regurgitated is "CS doesn't make knives", a charge that can be leveled against most of Spyderco's best selling lineup.
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Umm no one mentioned that but you. ::cough::strawman::cough::
3Guardsmen said:
Why would you drag Spyderco into this?

In my opinion, you don't know what the heck you're talking about!
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Yes why...oh yes I remember it is called Straw man.
shecky said:
You've chosen to fixate on CS, for doing the exact same thing that Spyderco does. Yet when Spyderco does it, it's good. You've chosen to become defensive over Spyderco's manufacturing practices. A practice I have no problem with, BTW. If I concede that many companies do the same thing (which I do), would your feeling be less hurt?
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Um no. You set up a Straw man argument to misdirect and hijack the initial focus of the thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

This is the dead horse marketing by Cold Steel that is being discussed. Try to stay focused.
 
Darnit, Zen, just when I was starting to have a little fun with him, you called him on the carpet for what he's doing. Now what am I gonna do?;):D

Good to see you,
3G
 
John79 said:
Well, this isn't really a surprise to me, but it just pisses me off. I was looking around at cold steel's site and I saw their "kukri", so I decided to have a look. I copied and pasted this with no alterations.-------The Gurkha Kukri’s VG-1 San Mai III¨ blade will out-chop any factory or handmade knives; including swords twice its size, even expensive, hand forged Japanese Katanas. It’s the heaviest Kukri on the market.------------See anything wrong? Ummmm... How about everything?!?! Their kukri weighs 22 oz. I'm not so sure:jerkit:, but I think that Himalayan Imports makes Ang Khola Khukuries up to 30 inches long and weighing in excess of like 5 pounds...... So, what do you guys think?
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If Cold Steel says it's the heaviest Kukri on the market, it must be true! As you can see here: http://www.coldsteel.com/ , in their introduction, they very clearly state, "We do not exaggerate. Our descriptions are accurate."!:rolleyes:

1 Year warranty! Wow!

Regards,
3G
 
3Guardsmen said:
True, Spyderco did start out having their knives made by the Sakai company in Seki-City, Japan, but they have since made "the leap" and opened their own factory. Has Cold Steel? Again, apples and oranges.
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Now you aren't answering my question. Would you write off their first models because they didn't have their own manufacturing facilities? The same conditions for which you fault CS?

There's a disconnect with this line of thinking that says Cold Steel must have it's own manufacturing facility to make quality products. Having something manufactured by others is no reliable way of judging the quality of the final product. Outsourcing was a wise way for companies like CS and Spyderco to do business, and continues to be. Spyderco presumably has determined, in the years since it's birth, that it's also wise to produce some models domestically in house. You may believe that in and of itself makes one company superior, and the other inferior. However, evidence to support such a claim hasn't been presented.
 
shecky said:
Not quite. Sorry Zenheretic.

Interestingly, 3Guardsmen decided to pick up that contention and expound on it.
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I can admit when I'm wrong. :foot: I read the thread once, skimmed it for back up, but still missed hardheart.


Of course 3G is defending Spyderco as you are dragging them into your defense and ignoring the differences between Spyderco and Cold Steel. It is easy to argue whilst ignoring the points pointed out to you. Kinda Cliff Stumpish. ;)
 
shecky said:
Now you aren't answering my question. Would you write off their first models because they didn't have their own manufacturing facilities? The same conditions for which you fault CS?

There's a disconnect with this line of thinking that says Cold Steel must have it's own manufacturing facility to make quality products. Having something manufactured by others is no reliable way of judging the quality of the final product. Outsourcing was a wise way for companies like CS and Spyderco to do business, and continues to be. Spyderco presumably has determined, in the years since it's birth, that it's also wise to produce some models domestically in house. You may believe that in and of itself makes one company superior, and the other inferior. However, evidence to support such a claim hasn't been presented.
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The proof is in the warranty my friend. Which company has (and always had) a better warranty? Cold Steel with its 1-year (folders)/5-year (fixed-blades), or Spyderco with its limited lifetime?

Why did Cold Steel move production of several of their "best sellers" (Recon Tanto, SRK, Recon Scout, Recon 1) to Taiwan and China (mostly China)? I have yet to see Spyderco move ANY of their Japan-made knives to China. In fact, the only thing that Spyderco has made in China is their Byrd line. No Spyderco knife is made in China!

Who do you think makes a more quality piece, Japan or China? That should answer your questions about quality. Spyderco is moving more and more of their production to their factory, Cold Steel is moving more and more of their production to China.
 
zenheretic said:
I can admit when I'm wrong. :foot: I read the thread once, skimmed it for back up, but still missed hardheart.


Of course 3G is defending Spyderco as you are dragging them into your defense and ignoring the differences between Spyderco and Cold Steel. It is easy to argue whilst ignoring the points pointed out to you. Kinda Cliff Stumpish. ;)
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OK. Which points are you referring to, specifically?

Why exactly is it good for Spyderco (or insert your favorite American branded import) to have knives made by other companies, and bad for CS to do the same thing?
 
shecky said:
Now you aren't answering my question. Would you write off their first models because they didn't have their own manufacturing facilities? The same conditions for which you fault CS?
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At least now you are somewhat willing to make more of an accurate comparison, so, I'll answer. No, I would not write off Spyderco in their early (outsourcing only) days, simply because, like Cold Steel, at the time, they were a fledgling company. Now, however, almost 30 years later, Spyderco, to me, has shown great initiative by creating their own factory, here in the USA, whereas Cold Steel has not. That, to me, speaks volumes about Spyderco's committment to what they do. They MAKE knives!
 
shecky said:
Why exactly is it good for Spyderco (or insert your favorite American branded import) to have knives made by other companies, and bad for CS to do the same thing?
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You are still missing the boat here, Shecky! Spyderco created their own factory, Cold Steel didn't. That is the difference!
 
Wow. Talk about your straw men:

3Guardsmen said:
The proof is in the warranty my friend. Which company has a better warranty? Cold Steel with its 1-year (folders)/5-year (fixed-blades), or Spyderco with its limited lifetime?
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What does this have to do with the weak criticism that "CS doesn't make knives"?

How is the warranty proof that CS outsourcing=bad, and Spyderco outsourcing =good?

3Guardsmen said:
Why did Cold Steel move production of several of their "best sellers" (Recon Tanto, SRK, Recon Scout, Recon 1) to Taiwan and China (mostly China)?
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The demise of Camillus might be a factor for at least some of their knives.

That aside, why is it a bad thing to move production at all? If any company can maintain or increase profitability by changing means or location of production, why should it not be done?

And lastly, what does this have to do with the weak criticism that "CS doesn't make knives"? If it's bad that CS doesn't make a knife in one factory, is it any worse that they don't make it in a different one?

3Guardsmen said:
I have yet to see Spyderco move ANY of their Japan-made knives to China. In fact, the only thing that Spyderco has made in China is their Byrd line. No Spyderco knife is made in China!
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What does this have to do with the weak criticism that "CS doesn't make knives"?

As for your question, I suspect it's often easier to for Spyderco to simply discontinue products than to move them. However, some products have been essentially moved to China. The discontinued Spyderwrench and the Spydercard have essentially been reintroduced. Made in China. Under the Byrd name.

Regarding your contention that "No Spyderco knife is made in China!",
I'd disagree. I maintain that Byrd knives are simply Spydercos... that happen to be made in China. Unless I'm mistaken, they're designed by Spyderco. They're arranged to be made by Spyderco. And they're marketed by Spyderco. Just like the Delica and Endura and Salt, etc. But manufacutred in a different country.


3Guardsmen said:
Who do you think makes a more quality piece, Japan or China? That should answer your questions about "quality."
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Once again, what does this have to do with the weak criticism that "CS doesn't make knives"?

To avoid being accused of ducking (unrelated) questions, I'd say Japanese products are usually better. But as anyone who's seen a Byrd knife will tell you, not by a whole lot.
 
3Guardsmen said:
You are still missing the boat here, Shecky! Spyderco created their own factory, Cold Steel didn't. That is the difference!
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So what? Would you change your mind about CS if they decided to make all knives in house? Would their knives suddenly become wonderful, high quality knives?

Would you change your mind about Spyderco if they shut down their domestic manufacturing facilities and reverted to their former practice of importing all their knives? Would their imports suddenly become overpriced crap?

The answer to both questions is probably no. Because it doesn't matter if a company makes all, or some, or none of their wares in house. What matters is the end product. Which can be a quality product regardless of outsourcing.
 
Sorry Shecky I'm not going to defend hardheart.

For what it is worth, upon rererereading his post, I think that all he is saying that is whoever makes the knives in question (cold Steel's knives) makes a good product. If you follow the previous posts up a few, a dealer asked why so many Cold Steel knives sell. hardheart appears to be saying because the knives are good. If it bothers him that there is no cold steel plant that is his problem.

3G and others have made several posts in this thread showing differences between Spyderco and Cold Steel. It should be quite unsurprising that you will get loads of resistance when you attempt to compare a Lynn/marketing company known for hype, fight picking, and exagerations if not outright lies to a multi-patent holder, knife designer, knife maker, beacon of industry, high integrity/honesty and all around good dude such as Sal/Spyderco.
 
shecky said:
Once again, what does this have to do with the weak criticism that "CS doesn't make knives"?
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If Cold Steel had their own factory, like Spyderco, they could have possibly avoided having to move a significant portion of their manufacturing to China, where quality control tends to be more lacking, after Camillus' demise, by moving production to their own factory. So, by not having a factory of their own, they have, in my opinion, diminished the quality of their brand. That is what "China" has to do with the "CS doesn't make knives" criticism.
 
shecky said:
So what? Would you change your mind about CS if they decided to make all knives in house? Would their knives suddenly become wonderful, high quality knives?

Would you change your mind about Spyderco if they shut down their domestic manufacturing facilities and reverted to their former practice of importing all their knives? Would their imports suddenly become overpriced crap?

The answer to both questions is probably no. Because it doesn't matter if a company makes all, or some, or none of their wares in house. What matters is the end product. Which can be a quality product regardless of outsourcing.
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When you want to try a knife with the latest "super steel," do you order from Cold Steel?

When you want to try out a new locking mechanism on a folder, do you order from Cold Steel?

When you're just dying to try out a new handle material on a knife, do you order from Cold Steel?

When you want to learn about knife manufacturing and the industry from an insider's persepctive, do you go to the Cold Steel Forum, here on BF, and talk to the President/Owner/Representative?

I go to Spyderco and Kershaw, both of whom have factories of their own, right here in the United States!:thumbup:
 
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