Cold Steel= flat out liars

[TheBruce]

What type of cutting jobs do you/will you be using it for? Besides the San Mai III steel, what other performance attributes do you feel justify its somewhat high price? I can't imagine a "polished micarta" handle as being very grippy when the knife might be needed in a "tactical" situation, but has your experience shown otherwise?

Cheers,
3Guardsmen

You're obviously good people, 3Guardsmen (I like the handle, btw...)

Excellent questions. I have many of the same aversions shared by you and others to Cold Steel products in general, and to Lynn Thompson in particular (I think the guy is a blowhard and a bully). But this particular knife has a well executed pistol grip that I find really comfortable, and which counters the less than grippy "polished Micarta" handle. The thing just feels good in my hand, and certainly more secure than most any smooth Micarta handle I've held in the past. (Bob Dozier's D2 tool steel Micarta-handled blades come to mind: Dozier makes a reliable product, and his finger cut-out handles work nicely with polished Micarta; the Black Sable's handle shape provides a quite secure grip for similar reasons: good design is always the determining factor.) Like you--and here I'm guessing a bit--I just really appreciate a nice G-10 scale for tactical use. But this knife is different. For one, it just isn't a tactical folder, but more of an all-round worker that could function as a self-defense weapon in an emergency. I plan to use it as an everyday personal-carry folder. The likely targets for that blade are cardboard, rope, light wood cutting (kindling or the occasional tent stake, not whittling), and general sporting use while fishing and hunting.


As far as price is concerned, I would not have bought the knife retail. A price somewhere between $230 and $260 is fair enough; I realize that some forum members will find even this dramatic reduction from the full ticket price of $400 unacceptable...but in that case, a strong resistance to CS is the more likely explanation for their attitude. I hope this answers your questions, 3Guardsmen.

 

[TheBruce]

At least they aren't ninja attacks...

Truer words were never spoken....

 

[TheBruce]

The "fat man" comments are of course to be ignored, it is the knives that are of interest. If anything these types of comments tend to support the knives because if you have to attack the man then it means you can't critize the knives in a meaningful manner.

-Cliff

Those comments were made in jest, while yours were just gratuitous tripe. Let's not veer off course here, Cliff. My contributions to this thread were merely designed to explain why I just bought a high-end folder from Cold Steel, a company often reviled in these forums, run by a guy few members adore. If you actually read my posts, you will note that I in no way disparaged other firms or the steel choices they make, nor did I attack any person whose opinions differ respectfully from my own. I don't take s--t from anyone, however, as my reaction to your baseless criticism clearly demonstrates. Find a new target.

 

[Ryan8]

Maybe if we had a thread about Cold Steel and Sebenzas, we could make it to 50+ pages.

 

[ronsec]

Well... it certainly has been an interesting thread! I think I still will buy a Black Sable, if only to say I have one!

TheBruce: I have enjoyed reading your posts and you seem pretty knowledgeable. I was wondering, would you share a little info about yourself? I like to have a point of reference. If you can't/won't/don't want to, I respect your need/wish for privacy. Also, if you would have to kill me if I knew, NEVER MIND!

 

[Smegmalicious]

Truer words were never spoken....

Glad to see someone has a sense of humor here!

 

[DngrRuss1]

Since you are "close to the company", would you mind explaining something that I percieved to be the use of video trickery?

Get your copy of the "More Proof" DVD and do the following:

Click on the "folders" menu, then click on the "Night Force". If you watch closely when they put the "Night Force" in the vise and hook the weights on (I think it's about 2:10 / 2minutes and 10 seconds into the "Night Force" portion of the video), you will see the "Night Force" seemingly morph into the "Scimitar", then back into the "Night Force", right before your very eyes!

Any comments on that one?

Thank you,
3Guardsmen

I have heard this before. I need to check this out for myself. If it is there, then I can almost gaurantee that it is simply an editing error. The company is not out to deceive anyone with their DVD. There are hundreds of hours of video of not only the Proof material, but all the testing that the company does with their knives. This is done so that, again, what is stated is backed up with evidence.

I will research this for myself though.

 

[3Guardsmen]

You're obviously good people, 3Guardsmen (I like the handle, btw...)

Thank you for the kind words, sir. As far as the handle, what can I say, I'm a big fan of the real Hero Lawmen of the Frontier, Chris Madsen, Heck Thomas, and Bill Tighlman (forget about that "fighting pimp" Wyatt Earp, who has been the subject of too many over-glorified books and movies).

Excellent questions. I have many of the same aversions shared by you and others to Cold Steel products in general, and to Lynn Thompson in particular (I think the guy is a blowhard and a bully). But this particular knife has a well executed pistol grip that I find really comfortable, and which counters the less than grippy "polished Micarta" handle. The thing just feels good in my hand, and certainly more secure than most any smooth Micarta handle I've held in the past. (Bob Dozier's D2 tool steel Micarta-handled blades come to mind: Dozier makes a reliable product, and his finger cut-out handles work nicely with polished Micarta; the Black Sable's handle shape provides a quite secure grip for similar reasons: good design is always the determining factor.)

Thats pretty much the way I feel about my Spyderco Persian. Its got polished Micarta scales (steel bolsters), yet, because of the handle design, provides a very secure grip.

Like you--and here I'm guessing a bit--I just really appreciate a nice G-10 scale for tactical use.

You guessed absolutely correctly, sir! G10 is my absolute favorite scale material for a tactical piece.

But this knife is different. For one, it just isn't a tactical folder, but more of an all-round worker that could function as a self-defense weapon in an emergency. I plan to use it as an everyday personal-carry folder. The likely targets for that blade are cardboard, rope, light wood cutting (kindling or the occasional tent stake, not whittling), and general sporting use while fishing and hunting.
As far as price is concerned, I would not have bought the knife retail. A price somewhere between $230 and $260 is fair enough; I realize that some forum members will find even this dramatic reduction from the full ticket price of $400 unacceptable...but in that case, a strong resistance to CS is the more likely explanation for their attitude. I hope this answers your questions, 3Guardsmen.

An excellent review of the knife. This does indeed answer the questions I had about this knife. Thank you!

Best Wishes,
3Guardsmen

P.S. You may want to examine, if you have not already done so, the Spyderco "Persian" (which I have and love), which, due to its handle construction and angle of blade, gives me the impression it would hold in a similar fashion to the Black Sable. Also worth mentioning are the Spyderco "Ayoob" model and the Timberline/Greg Lightfoot "Pistol grip" (at least thats what I think its called). I get the feeling you might enjoy these, though they do lack the San Mai III steel (both Spyderco's are VG10, and the Timberline, I think, is AUS8). Give 'em a look and tell me what you think.

 

[3Guardsmen]

I have heard this before. I need to check this out for myself. If it is there, then I can almost gaurantee that it is simply an editing error. The company is not out to deceive anyone with their DVD. There are hundreds of hours of video of not only the Proof material, but all the testing that the company does with their knives. This is done so that, again, what is stated is backed up with evidence.

I will research this for myself though.

I think that if CS had somewhat of a presence on these forums, as you appear to be doing on their behalf, some of the speculation would cease. Thank you for your time!

Sincerely,
3Guardsmen

 

[3Guardsmen]

Glad to see someone has a sense of humor here!

That post about "Ninja Essence" was one of the funniest things I've ever read!

Cheers,
3Guardsmen

 

[Planterz]

I don't like Cold Steel.

Part of it is the fact that for nearly ever model (at least, any model that I'd be interested in), I can find a better knife for the same price (or less) or an equal knife for less money. Give me an Endura or a Griptilian over a Voyager any day.

Part of it is their steels. SanMai III? Maybe if they put Carbon V (whatever it is) in the core, I'd be more interested, and more inclined to spend $250 on the knife. Sandwiched or not, AUS-8 doesn't impress me on a $50 knife, and certainly not on a $250 one. Don't get me started on their "Sub Zero Quench 420J".

A big part of it is their ethics, although this is a more recent development rather than an old one. The Black Sable is very obviously a rip-off of the Brian Tighe Tighe Stick. Most of the arguments contrary are ones like "everybody rips off everybody else". The fact that another "new" CS design, the Black Talon is also a rip-off (this time of the Spyderco Civilian/Matriarch, including the unlicenced use of Spyderco's patented Reverse S Curve) only strengthens my opinion of Cold Steel's lack of ethics towards other knife makers.

Finally, the biggest reason I dislike Cold Steel is simply because of their marketing. I have a hard time buying a knife from a company whose biggest promoter is themselves. I'll grant that their marketing styles aren't much different than anything you see on TV, be it 4x4 trucks, paper towells, or deoderant, but when it comes to hard use tools, real world customer use and word of mouth holds much more water in my view. You don't see Makita or Dewalt commercials on TV, but you damn sure see them at construction sites. What I guess I'm trying to say is that companies like Spyderco or Benchmade don't need to make extravagent DVDs or hype their claims to sell their knives, because everybody already knows that they're excellent knives. One of the more obnoxious trends in this industry is hype, and the resulting flurry of questions on the forums about "Does XXXXX live up to the hype?", and in basically every case, the knife costs more than a similar knife by a different company. One gets the impression that the company could spend less money on the hype and sell the knife for less, or use the money to make a better knife.

 

[RedEdge77]

Whos Better? Cold Steel's VS. Chriss Reeves

The choice of many is cold steel

 

[Guyon]

Can one purchase ninja essense in an aerosol spray? I'd love to meet each day exuding the wrath of the ninja. You know, in a meeker sort of spray-on way.

Wow, I didn't know such vitriol existed over Cold Steel. I have a Master Hunter in Carbon V, and it's an excellent knife all around. Plan to keep on using it. I don't care if LT resembles the Beverly Hills Ninja.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have a hard time buying a knife from a company whose biggest promoter is themselves.

I give CS lots of credit for saying what their knives can do, however it goes completely to zero when right after this they say you can't attempt any of the things they use to demonstrate the abilities of their knives.

-Clif

 

[3Guardsmen]

another "new" CS design, the Black Talon is also a rip-off (this time of the Spyderco Civilian/Matriarch, including the unlicenced use of Spyderco's patented Reverse S Curve).

Sal actually said on the forums that he and LT had some sort of "arrangement" worked out as it pertained to the design of the "Black Talon". So, CS isn't in the wrong on that one.

One thing that gets me though is how CS can describe their competitor's (in this case, I'm pretty sure they mean Spyderco) "unsightly holes and humps", and then use one of their designs. If you ask me, CS is the king of hypocrisy in the knife world. They bash their competitors for doing certain things, and then turn right around and do the same thing. They won't get my money.

Sincerely,
3Guardsmen

 

[Artfully Martial]

Can I can get some Black Sable reviews? What a gorgeous knife. IF it performs as well as it looks I might buy one.

 

[DngrRuss1]

I give CS lots of credit for saying what their knives can do, however it goes completely to zero when right after this they say you can't attempt any of the things they use to demonstrate the abilities of their knives.

-Clif

We've all heard this song and dance from you before Cliff, so please allow me to chime in on this one.

We've seen car commercials with the vehicle being advertised doing amazing and probably borderline dangerous things. At the bottom of the screen we see the same scroll: Professional driver. Closed course. Do not attempt.

Is the manufacturer saying that the car is not capable of doing the things the commercial is showing? Of course not. Let's examine the real reasons, and I will be specific to Cold Steel.

1- Doing such activities as flexing a knife in a vice, testing lock strength, plywood cutting, spine whacks, etc., ARE DEFINED AS ABUSE. The performers in the video are professionals who spend many hours a month testing and testing knives. They push to product up to and beyond the breaking point. For someone in the general public to do so is technically rendered unnecessary since the company did it for you. If some yahoo from Tweedle Town decides to do a flex test and goes to 60 degrees like the video and either permanantly bends or breaks the knife, he has no right to claim a warranty replacement because he obviously abused the knife. I know that your response will be, "but the knife has to perform as shown for the statements to be valid." While that may be technically true, it also shows your bias rather clearly. The tests done on the video are often extreme and not normal use of a knife. They are done to show how tough they are and how high the performance level is. You are blinded by the letter of the law and not acknowledging the spirit of the law.

2- Let's go back to our friend, the yahoo from Tweedle Town. He sees the video, LT, instead of warning the public of the abuse issue either says nothing or goes further and says "try it at home." Our yahoo now flexes a knife in a vice, it breaks after 60 degrees (since he has no protractor to measure angle- and probably wouldn't know what a protractor was), shrapnel flies into his face and he loses an eye. Before going to the hospital, he decides to try a spine whack, isn't wearing a leather or steel glove, didn't lock the knife properly, and loses his thumb. While he is waiting for the ambulance, he sees some rope hanging from a fence post and pulls out his last CS knife, tries his first rope cut, over swings, and stabs himself in the leg.

After Yahoo returns home, you can bet that, though he is not smart enough to not do such tests, he is smart enough to call a lawyer and sue the crap out of CS and LT. The company, if they are going to make extreme claims and videos regarding their product, has to give strong disclaimers to protect themselves.

Besides, most of the yahoos in the world have no ninja essence. We all know that it is the ninja essence that allows you to do such cutting and destructive work- couldn't be professionals and quality product....

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

the other day a guy sold me a big tub of ninja essence. I got home and smeared it all over my body. I took out my knife and tried to cut some hanging rope. The knife slipped out of my grip and flew into the woods. It turns out that "ninja essence" is just plain old margarine.

 

[3Guardsmen]

We've all heard this song and dance from you before Cliff, so please allow me to chime in on this one.

We've seen car commercials with the vehicle being advertised doing amazing and probably borderline dangerous things. At the bottom of the screen we see the same scroll: Professional driver. Closed course. Do not attempt.

Is the manufacturer saying that the car is not capable of doing the things the commercial is showing? Of course not. Let's examine the real reasons, and I will be specific to Cold Steel.

1- Doing such activities as flexing a knife in a vice, testing lock strength, plywood cutting, spine whacks, etc., ARE DEFINED AS ABUSE. The performers in the video are professionals who spend many hours a month testing and testing knives. They push to product up to and beyond the breaking point. For someone in the general public to do so is technically rendered unnecessary since the company did it for you. If some yahoo from Tweedle Town decides to do a flex test and goes to 60 degrees like the video and either permanantly bends or breaks the knife, he has no right to claim a warranty replacement because he obviously abused the knife. I know that your response will be, "but the knife has to perform as shown for the statements to be valid." While that may be technically true, it also shows your bias rather clearly. The tests done on the video are often extreme and not normal use of a knife. They are done to show how tough they are and how high the performance level is. You are blinded by the letter of the law and not acknowledging the spirit of the law.

2- Let's go back to our friend, the yahoo from Tweedle Town. He sees the video, LT, instead of warning the public of the abuse issue either says nothing or goes further and says "try it at home." Our yahoo now flexes a knife in a vice, it breaks after 60 degrees (since he has no protractor to measure angle- and probably wouldn't know what a protractor was), shrapnel flies into his face and he loses an eye. Before going to the hospital, he decides to try a spine whack, isn't wearing a leather or steel glove, didn't lock the knife properly, and loses his thumb. While he is waiting for the ambulance, he sees some rope hanging from a fence post and pulls out his last CS knife, tries his first rope cut, over swings, and stabs himself in the leg.

After Yahoo returns home, you can bet that, though he is not smart enough to not do such tests, he is smart enough to call a lawyer and sue the crap out of CS and LT. The company, if they are going to make extreme claims and videos regarding their product, has to give strong disclaimers to protect themselves.

Besides, most of the yahoos in the world have no ninja essence. We all know that it is the ninja essence that allows you to do such cutting and destructive work- couldn't be professionals and quality product....

I'm still interested in that "editing error" in the DVD, the one where the "Night Force" morphs into the "Scimitar" while in the vise. Any word on that yet?

FWIW, I agree with Cliff. How do you determine where the "this constitutes abuse" disclaimer in the "Proof" and "More Proof" videos ends. Is repeatedly cutting rope "abusive"? Is continually cutting cardboard "abusive"? If I decide to cut hanging pieces of meat, have I "grosely abused" my CS knife?

You said a few times that we, the consumers, don't need to repeat those tests, because "the company has done it for us". Well I for one don't put much trust in a company that says "we've done the testing for you", especially if that company is looked upon with a bit of scepticism. If CS would make videos of a third party, like...oh...say....Cliff Stamp, beating the snot out of their products, I might believe the hype. Until then, I don't buy (literally and figuratively) their products.

Best wishes,
3Guardsmen

 

[Thomas Linton]

Look, I have no great stake in this CS/LT business. I am not bummed out about my CS knives. Lots of companies use advertising that I find in questionable taste or that simply does not link with me -- like Dork Ops.

Having said that, it would be one thing for a reputable company to say, "This knife is tough enough to chop through pine knots. Watch us do it." Then I know that if I accidently hit a pine knot, the knife should hold up. That is a useful thing to know when selecting a "survival knife." Stuff happens.

What value should I get from a company saying, "This knife is tough enough to chop through pine knots -- but if you do it, that constitutes "abuse" and the warranty does not apply"? What am I missing? (other than Essence of Ninja-Osaka Nights).