Cold Steel= flat out liars

[TheBruce]

Glad to see someone has a sense of humor here!

You've made a lot of folks laugh with your posts--and we all know that it takes brains to be funny. Everybody on this forum is passionate about knives; but sometimes humor is the best way to get the point across. I for one appreciate your attitude. There are always going to be flame wars...can't be helped: members have strong opinions, and they aren't afraid to take a stand for their beliefs, which is commendable, really. But we all have a heck of a lot more in common than not. I try to remember that always. I respect forum members. This is a community of persons who care about quality and performance. Thanks for the fun contributions, SMG.

 

[TheBruce]

Maybe if we had a thread about Cold Steel and Sebenzas, we could make it to 50+ pages.

A solid thought, Ryan, but Sebenzas are so totally good that there would blood on the green by morning....

 

[Cobalt]

I am not familiar with CS folders, but I have had experience with some of their fixed blades.

First and foremost. CS knives are the sharpest knives out of the box, I have ever handled with spyderco coming in second.

I have not abused any CS folders, but I had an SRK that I beat the livin daylights out of and it took it all in stride. Arguably the best CS knife ever. I think a Recon Scout could do as well, but I have not tested it.

I don't like the variation in testing results with CS knives. It seems you either get a great one or a POS which breaks easily. I'd like to see more consistent results. I am amazed at that one Recon Scout that snapped at the edge easily under slight prying. Not good. I have tried this same thing with my Trailmaster and could not do it, and the blade profile is exactly the same.

 

[TheBruce]

Well... it certainly has been an interesting thread! I think I still will buy a Black Sable, if only to say I have one!

TheBruce: I have enjoyed reading your posts and you seem pretty knowledgeable. I was wondering, would you share a little info about yourself? I like to have a point of reference. If you can't/won't/don't want to, I respect your need/wish for privacy. Also, if you would have to kill me if I knew, NEVER MIND!

And just think of all the fun abuse you'll get for actually taking the plunge, Ronsec!

Thank you for your interest--I detect a gentlemanly impulse behind your question.

Started out in the Corps--first posting: 32nd MAU--went on to DOD Intel; retired; failed in three successive businesses; finally made three nickels for the government to tax; went back in for Gulf I; stayed for three years training kids in CQB; accepted job with buddy who worked security detail in Bandar; made three more nickels to rub together with the first three for the government to tax in a slightly higher bracket; got "cushy" job convincing the hopeful that investing hard earned money in Europe was a good idea; quit in disgust, suffering from low-level shame; became deal-maker; made small pile for the government to audit mercilessly; twice; became problem solver; solved one too many problems; got married--began obsessively collecting knives, guns and what we fellows like to call "equipment."

I hope this short sketch of failure and borderline redemption answers your query, Ronsec....

 

[TheBruce]

Thank you for the kind words, sir. As far as the handle, what can I say, I'm a big fan of the real Hero Lawmen of the Frontier, Chris Madsen, Heck Thomas, and Bill Tighlman (forget about that "fighting pimp" Wyatt Earp, who has been the subject of too many over-glorified books and movies).



Thats pretty much the way I feel about my Spyderco Persian. Its got polished Micarta scales (steel bolsters), yet, because of the handle design, provides a very secure grip.



You guessed absolutely correctly, sir! G10 is my absolute favorite scale material for a tactical piece.



An excellent review of the knife. This does indeed answer the questions I had about this knife. Thank you!

Best Wishes,
3Guardsmen

P.S. You may want to examine, if you have not already done so, the Spyderco "Persian" (which I have and love), which, due to its handle construction and angle of blade, gives me the impression it would hold in a similar fashion to the Black Sable. Also worth mentioning are the Spyderco "Ayoob" model and the Timberline/Greg Lightfoot "Pistol grip" (at least thats what I think its called). I get the feeling you might enjoy these, though they do lack the San Mai III steel (both Spyderco's are VG10, and the Timberline, I think, is AUS8). Give 'em a look and tell me what you think.

Wow, you really know how to hit a guy where it hurts! Both the Spyderco Persian and the Ayoob are favorites of mine. Spyderco is such a terrific company, and Sal Glesser is a fellow who really deserves respect. I love buying from that outfit.

You are absolutely right about the design of the knife handles listed: they transcend materials alone and just fit perfectly, which is the mark of any great product. I have a Spyderco Viele folder that has Micarta scales. It's an excellent knife, though not nearly as secure in hand as the Black Sable, which, like your Persian, has the gun-grip that Micarta needs to feel well-controlled (Bob Dozier does a great job with his grooved Micarta-handled D2 tool steel blades). I've never seen Timberline products in person, but pictures do them credit--nice looking line, excellent prices. About VG-10: this has to be one of the very few best steels on the planet! The stuff just cuts and cuts.... I have a little Spyderco Kiwi gent folder with a VG-10 blade, and what an outstanding knife it is; in fact, the blade, which has never been sharpened, is literally as razor dangerous as it was the day I bought it over a year ago, and I use the little guy every day, on any material you'd care to mention, short of really evil stuff like wire. Spyderco gives their customer solid value for money. And they aren't pretentious about it, either.

I enjoy your posts, 3Guardsmen!

 

[ronsec]

TheBruce - Thanks for the reply to my question about you! Sounds like you've had an interesting & active life, so far. My life has been a bit more mundane, but no less fulfilling. Looking forward to more of your posts - I enjoy them!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What value should I get from a company saying, "This knife is tough enough to chop through pine knots -- but if you do it, that constitutes "abuse" and the warranty does not apply"?

They don't understand the meaning of "abuse" and "warrenty". If you illustrate that a knife can do a task without any harm how can it possibly be abusive to the knife. There are a number of reasons makes/manufacturers *LOVE* the attitude "why should you do it, the maker already did".

Not every maker's products live up to the claims, people will lie to sell a product. Let us come out of fantasy land and into the real world. Even with the guys that are not outright making up claims there are lots of things you will find out if you try to duplicate performance tests which will end up making you a very hard sell as a consumer, the number one of which is

The tests are not really that impressive

Cold Steel for a long time used the car door stab to show the extreme strength of the tips of their knives and specifically the "tanto" point. If you never have done this then it is likely to impress you, assuming you don't know anything about light sheet metal anyway. But as soon as you try it you realize that it isn't very much of a stress on a knife at all.

It also has *nothing* to do with the tanto geometry but is a factor of cross section something else you will find out quickly if you start using other knives to do the same work. This kind of comparison work is the key to cutting through the hype, because it allows you to see where the performance actually comes from?

If you really want to see high performance look for makers who not only don't have a problem, but will actually encourage the user to verify the performance claims *AND* compare them to other knives. Yes, they exist and they don't have a problem because their knives can do what they say they can.

They also *want* you to be more informed because you will be better able to appreciate quality. Only people who are selling you hype want to keep you away from educating your self.

About 15 years ago Alvin and Mike did a lot of testing on edge retention, cutting ability, durability, ease of sharpening, sharpness, on various steels and heat treatments. I got involved on the end when both of them had basically figured it all out. Neither of those guys had a problem with me trying to replicate their results, Alvin even made three knives specifically for me to see if the performance was as he said.

Guess what - it was.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

I have been a repeat customer of Cold Steel for many years. I sometimes have to roll my eyes at LT also but to me it is no different than some of the music I listen to. I don't always care for the antics of some of these muscians or their look but I do like the music they make. So what if LT is a flake or weird or anything else. That has nothing to do with the end result of his products that are in most every case made for them by very good reputation knife companies/manufacturers..

I recently bought one of the now discontinued Cold Steel Trail Guide folders, made in the USA with the same CV steel Case uses. Of course CS calls it Carbon V. For the $18 plus shipping I was so impressed with this knife on close out that I bought another one.

As for the SAN Mai steel. I like it. I have one of the Shinobu Med. Tanto Folders from the 80s and it has been a great little folder. One of the few I have kept from CS compared to the numerous others I've had come and go. I like their Vaquero series knives also.

But in the new catalog the one that really caught my eye personally that I'd love to own is the Spectre. That is a great looking folder and I think I see one in my future if I can get the Wife to approve the purchase. I have heard nothing but good things about the Black Sable and I have no doubt it is a great folder. I'd personally love to see it in a side by side test of a Spyderco Chinook a Strider SNG, a Emerson Persian or even better a CQC12 Ti and a Swamp Rat Rat Trap.

I would not be surprised at all if the less expensive Chinook kicked all the above knives in the a$$ in the end for overall performance and value.

I seriously think the only one in that above line up that would give the Chinook a run for the money for superior lock strength and edge holding and probably kick all their butts for blade toughness is the Black Sable. I think both the Strider and the Emerson are some tough knives though and I'd love to see them in a real world test involving these four brutes. I'd even donate to the cause so we could gather up the knives to get this tests wheels in motion.

By the way. TheBruce at this rate of posts per thread you are going to have 20k in no time flat my friend. Welcome to the forum.
STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... and probably kick all their butts for blade toughness is the Black Sable.

The blade thickness on the Sable is 1/8" per CS website. This would be vastly weaker than the much thicker blades on the Strider and even Manix. It would be quite flexible, but it would set at low angles with little force. It would be stronger if it wasn't a laminate.

The handle shape looks nice, I have used similar with other blades. I don't like the blade shape though, especially when considering the point presentation and the handle orientation. The price is also a real killer, unless that is *heavily* discounted that is custom level.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

It really is custom level in pricing. That is the draw back for me also. I can think of several handmades I'd sooner buy but it is a good looker. The blade shape reminds me of the Chinook and I didn't keep it because to me the blade was just too specialized. They both look to me like they would be great skinning blades if you want to know the truth.

I would think Cliff based on what I've read about laminates that the blade would be stronger because it is a laminate not weaker. I thought the hole purpose of the laminate was to make it stronger and tougher by surrounding the harder inner core for edge holding with a tougher outer sanwich of softer steel making it withstand impact and lateral stresses better than a solid steel blade would. Even at a 1/8 thickness I think it could take more beating based on the info I've gathered than the Chinook blade would.

Didn't you easily and unintentionally break the Chinook's S30V blade in your test? I don't think the S3OV blade is going to hold up to lateral stresses like this San Mai III blade would. I doubt the other two knives I wanted in the test would either to be honest. But I'd sure like to see the test to find out.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Wow, you really know how to hit a guy where it hurts! Both the Spyderco Persian and the Ayoob are favorites of mine. Spyderco is such a terrific company, and Sal Glesser is a fellow who really deserves respect. I love buying from that outfit.

You are absolutely right about the design of the knife handles listed: they transcend materials alone and just fit perfectly, which is the mark of any great product. I have a Spyderco Viele folder that has Micarta scales. It's an excellent knife, though not nearly as secure in hand as the Black Sable, which, like your Persian, has the gun-grip that Micarta needs to feel well-controlled (Bob Dozier does a great job with his grooved Micarta-handled D2 tool steel blades). I've never seen Timberline products in person, but pictures do them credit--nice looking line, excellent prices. About VG-10: this has to be one of the very few best steels on the planet! The stuff just cuts and cuts.... I have a little Spyderco Kiwi gent folder with a VG-10 blade, and what an outstanding knife it is; in fact, the blade, which has never been sharpened, is literally as razor dangerous as it was the day I bought it over a year ago, and I use the little guy every day, on any material you'd care to mention, short of really evil stuff like wire. Spyderco gives their customer solid value for money. And they aren't pretentious about it, either.

It seems we both share an appreciation for quality equipment.

I enjoy your posts, 3Guardsmen!

As do I yours, sir! :thumbup:


Sincerely,
3Guardsmen

 

[benjammin]

Okay, so I have been entertained. Reading all the posts was one way to kill the afternoon. So, can anyone here tell me if they think I wasted my money buying discounted SRK firsts? Okay, let me qualify that a little first.

I am in country. My decision to get another knife occurred after watching the knives selling at the PX. It was a choice between the SRK and a K-Bar combat. I noticed that in a week's time the SRKs were selling three to one over the K-Bar. I grabbed one, and about a month later another for the same $49.95 as the first. I don't pack them with me all the time, but I do use them for CQB on Palm trees and such. So far they've performed beautifully, and the trees have taken a terrible beating, though I haven't dropped one yet.

Since then, I have purchased "sight unseen" a Desert Battle Rat from SRKW, which is sitting at home back in the states. I will not bring it here, because I don't want to risk losing the thing. If I lost an SRK, I could replace it easy enough, and wouldn't really feel much remorse. It took 4 weeks for my DBR to get home after I ordered it, and having to do that again because mine got lost or stolen would make me upset, mostly because I would be in dutch for having to buy a replacement that the wife would see the receipt for (such is not the case for in-country purchases, heh heh).

Is there another knife out there similar to an SRK for that kinda money? I suppose there is if I order it, but since these were more impulse purchases, ordering was a disqualifying attribute. If I have to spend time ordering a knife, I am gonna get something more like exactly what I want (vis-a vis my DBR purchase), and that would mean excluding an SRK had they not been in the PX. If the PX had stocked it, what other knife would anyone here recommend instead of an SRK for similar cost and purpose (purpose being fixed blade utility/combat, not necessarily lopping on palm trees).
As far as my earlier statement about big business not infringing on copyrights, well, obviously my brain had shut down when I got to that part of my post. Long day, stressed out, the mind slipped a little, it happens.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Okay, so I have been entertained. Reading all the posts was one way to kill the afternoon. So, can anyone here tell me if they think I wasted my money buying discounted SRK firsts? Okay, let me qualify that a little first.

I am in country. My decision to get another knife occurred after watching the knives selling at the PX. It was a choice between the SRK and a K-Bar combat. I noticed that in a week's time the SRKs were selling three to one over the K-Bar. I grabbed one, and about a month later another for the same $49.95 as the first. I don't pack them with me all the time, but I do use them for CQB on Palm trees and such. So far they've performed beautifully, and the trees have taken a terrible beating, though I haven't dropped one yet.

Since then, I have purchased "sight unseen" a Desert Battle Rat from SRKW, which is sitting at home back in the states. I will not bring it here, because I don't want to risk losing the thing. If I lost an SRK, I could replace it easy enough, and wouldn't really feel much remorse. It took 4 weeks for my DBR to get home after I ordered it, and having to do that again because mine got lost or stolen would make me upset, mostly because I would be in dutch for having to buy a replacement that the wife would see the receipt for (such is not the case for in-country purchases, heh heh).

Is there another knife out there similar to an SRK for that kinda money? I suppose there is if I order it, but since these were more impulse purchases, ordering was a disqualifying attribute. If I have to spend time ordering a knife, I am gonna get something more like exactly what I want (vis-a vis my DBR purchase), and that would mean excluding an SRK had they not been in the PX. If the PX had stocked it, what other knife would anyone here recommend instead of an SRK for similar cost and purpose (purpose being fixed blade utility/combat, not necessarily lopping on palm trees).
As far as my earlier statement about big business not infringing on copyrights, well, obviously my brain had shut down when I got to that part of my post. Long day, stressed out, the mind slipped a little, it happens.

Benjammin,

God bless you, brother, for your service! It is appreciated! As far as a similar knife for a similar price to the CS SRK, how about the Becker Knife & Tool (BK&T) C/U7? http://www.newgraham.com/becker_knife__tool.htm Its currently selling for $49.99 ($.04 more than the SRK) and, while it may be a little heavier, it should stand up to even the harshest CQB against those pesky palm trees.

The CS SRK is not a bad knife at all, if you don't mind a "Kraton" grip & lack of a "full-tang". Be safe my friend! :thumbup:

Sincerely,
3Guardsmen

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...the blade would be stronger because it is a laminate not weaker.

The problem is that in the knife industry the material terms are not used according to defination, thus you end up with statements which are contradictory because people are using them for different things. If you laminate a hard steel to a softer one the laminate will bend easier, and take a set at a lower angle.

I thought the hole purpose of the laminate was to make it stronger and tougher by surrounding the harder inner core for edge holding with a tougher outer sanwich of softer steel making it withstand impact and lateral stresses better than a solid steel blade would.

It is tougher in regards to impacts and flexibility. Some laminates are so flexible you can actually bend the blades in a circle, no joke, I have done it. They however are insanely easy to bend. Essentially you are trading strength for toughness.

Even at a 1/8 thickness I think it could take more beating based on the info I've gathered than the Chinook blade would.

In terms of impact yes very likely, but I would wonder if the lock/pin would hold up to impacts.

Didn't you easily and unintentionally break the Chinook's S30V blade in your test?

Yes, it isn't difficult to break a 3/32" blade with a distal taper, with high carbon stainless you have pretty much no ductility so as soon as it starts to give it snaps.

The San Mai would bend further and likely not snap at all, unless take to extreme angles. It would however be really easy to bend, both due to the stock and soft laminate.

-Cliff

 

[TheBruce]

I have been a repeat customer of Cold Steel for many years. I sometimes have to roll my eyes at LT also but to me it is no different than some of the music I listen to. I don't always care for the antics of some of these muscians or their look but I do like the music they make. So what if LT is a flake or weird or anything else. That has nothing to do with the end result of his products that are in most every case made for them by very good reputation knife companies/manufacturers..

I recently bought one of the now discontinued Cold Steel Trail Guide folders, made in the USA with the same CV steel Case uses. Of course CS calls it Carbon V. For the $18 plus shipping I was so impressed with this knife on close out that I bought another one.

As for the SAN Mai steel. I like it. I have one of the Shinobu Med. Tanto Folders from the 80s and it has been a great little folder. One of the few I have kept from CS compared to the numerous others I've had come and go. I like their Vaquero series knives also.

But in the new catalog the one that really caught my eye personally that I'd love to own is the Spectre. That is a great looking folder and I think I see one in my future if I can get the Wife to approve the purchase. I have heard nothing but good things about the Black Sable and I have no doubt it is a great folder. I'd personally love to see it in a side by side test of a Spyderco Chinook a Strider SNG, a Emerson Persian or even better a CQC12 Ti and a Swamp Rat Rat Trap.

I would not be surprised at all if the less expensive Chinook kicked all the above knives in the a$$ in the end for overall performance and value.

I seriously think the only one in that above line up that would give the Chinook a run for the money for superior lock strength and edge holding and probably kick all their butts for blade toughness is the Black Sable. I think both the Strider and the Emerson are some tough knives though and I'd love to see them in a real world test involving these four brutes. I'd even donate to the cause so we could gather up the knives to get this tests wheels in motion.

By the way. TheBruce at this rate of posts per thread you are going to have 20k in no time flat my friend. Welcome to the forum.
STR

Interesting post, STR--I particularly like your test suggestion. And really impressive lineup, by the way. I agree with your conclusions, which just make sense (the Chinook is one serious piece of work...). And thanks for the kind comments. This is an interesting thread, and I am impressed with the knowledge of forum members; there is real commitment to quality and performance here. Properly designed, your test would certainly generate a great deal of excitement. The key is standardization, of course, and this requires true discipline. If a logical battery of "steps" could be devised, I have the feeling that many of the fellows on site, me included, would be willing to offer their support for the project.

 

[TheBruce]

Benjammin,

God bless you, brother, for your service! It is appreciated! As far as a similar knife for a similar price to the CS SRK, how about the Becker Knife & Tool (BK&T) C/U7? http://www.newgraham.com/becker_knife__tool.htm Its currently selling for $49.99 ($.04 more than the SRK) and, while it may be a little heavier, it should stand up to even the harshest CQB against those pesky palm trees.

The CS SRK is not a bad knife at all, if you don't mind a "Kraton" grip & lack of a "full-tang". Be safe my friend! :thumbup:

Sincerely,
3Guardsmen

I second the blessing upon this noble young fellow, and endorse your excellent Becker suggestion. Those knives are just idiot tough, as you clearly know, 3Guardsmen. I took a Becker Campanion to Rocky Mountain National Park not long ago and beat the heck out of the thing without visible impact. Becker supplies a ton of value for money.

 

[TheBruce]

TheBruce - Thanks for the reply to my question about you! Sounds like you've had an interesting & active life, so far. My life has been a bit more mundane, but no less fulfilling. Looking forward to more of your posts - I enjoy them!

You are a gentleman, sir--great to be onboard!

 

[3Guardsmen]

Those knives are just idiot tough, as you clearly know, 3Guardsmen.

Yes, I do. I'm an idiot, and they're tough alright.

Yours in jest,
3Guardsmen

 

[benjammin]

Yep, I am aware of the tang problems with the CS SRKs, so far, no worries. If I go to batoning them on big wood, I will be more careful.

The Becker has always sounded appealing. You know, just because I have these two and the Battle Rat doesn't mean I won't be looking for more for the rest of my life. It seems acquiring toys is my purpose for doing this kind of work.

Not so young anymore, and my active duty days are long over, but I am doing my part here best I can. You don't gotta be wearing a uniform here to get shot at or blown up. The "better pay" doesn't mean much either when you are busy dodging incoming.

Still, I am thankful not to be going out on Rat Patrol. Those kids deserve endless kudos from all of us.

 

[TheBruce]

Yes, I do. I'm an idiot, and they're tough alright.

Yours in jest,
3Guardsmen

I'm proud to be a part of the Idiot Club! Only bona fide idiots ever really use their high-end knives in ways stupid enough to push their limits. Any sensible person would simply place the things in a display case and dust them from time to time. Mercifully, members of this forum do not belong to the "trailer queen" school of classic car ownership: here a knife either performs or it dies an angry death (so to speak...).