Cold Steel VS Zero Tolerance

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A ZT knife lock can "fail" from hard use. I can lightly wiggle my ZT 200 and the lock will disengage just from that (don't even need "spine whacking" to show how weak the lock is). But again, ZT 550 lock is a lot better and hasn't failed me for 3 years now. So it all depends on the lock design/type itself.

7 pages so far of subjective and objective mudfest from both sides. *Eats a bowl of popcorn*
 
RBid said:
I am posting this for a second time because it has been ignored by people who are saying that these can fail dangerously in real use.

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Explain to me how this is in danger of failing despite pressure on the lockbar and upward pressure on the flipper, which also happens to be shielding my fingers? This is how they are held in actual use.
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People say they don't like the Millie because it's a liner lock and they don't like their fingers in the path of the blade. Same thing. The choil serves two purposes. ;)
 
asdf12345 said:
Oh, I didn't say that they're more likely to fail under hard use, although that certainly could be true. They're absolutely more likely to have issues out of the box in which the lock can be overcome by light taps or hand pressure, though.

Again, preaching to the choir - we get it - Cold Steel's marketing is silly. At least they don't make intentionally vague statements like "built like a tank" without any sort of demonstrations to back their claim.

If my points I outlined are wrong, please tell me why instead of doing the whole hilarious cynical Cold Steel marketing routine.
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Your points are wrong because they are standing upon the sand of faulty logic. You keep touting this "likely" failure of multiple points on Zero Tolerance knives, but the fact remains that those occurrences aren't actually "likely" and that ZT knives are just as good as any other knife for the purposes of "hard use".

Look, let's just clear up all the nebulous terminology: what does "hard use" mean to you? Prying up manhole covers, helping fat guys step up on a wooden contraption, or using the knife as something to hang weights from?

Or is it cutting a variety of materials, in a variety of environments? Because if it's the latter, guess what? Sorry, ZTs do just as well. I really don't know much clearer I can make this for you.

I'll just say it: if you need the ridiculous strength the Triad lock provides, then you shouldn't be using a folding knife in the first place, because it's clearly the wrong tool for the job. So, don't call Zero Tolerance products inferior or "not as good for hard use" because they aren't designed to be something they're not: crowbars, or weight stands.
 
Odd, I've never had a Zero Tolerance framelock close on me. Therefore, I'd say those locks work just fine. I've carved wood, I've cut up food, opened mail, trimmed nails, snipped off a shirt thread, and have even done light prying with my Zero Tolerance knives and have never had a single one fail. So, explain to me how a Triad lock is necessary, and makes Cold Steel knives objectively better for hard use.

The fact is: the lock doesn't. And that's what CS-Bros can't handle. Hell, you can get "hard use"* out of a $35 Buck 110. So what? The Triad lock only seems to be good for a few outlying "uses" for knives that folks who respect knives would never use knives for.



*Gotta love nebulous, unquantifiable terms
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Nebulous, unquantifiable terms? Go take a look at ZT's copywriting. Then at Benchmade's. Then at Emerson's. Everyone does this. Some are more obnoxious about it than others, and Cold Steel is definitely one of the most. But only Benchmade and Cold Steel even provide demonstrations of their knives.

As far as framelocks go, I'm not saying that the particular knives you own have bad locks. In fact, most of the locks coming out of ZT will be just fine and be as strong as any other lock out there. But the fact that your particular knives have good locks doesn't take away from other knives whose locks failed under light hand pressure or gentle taps.
 
Also, one last point: you said Cold Steel marketing is silly. Actually, I disagree. I'd say it's quite effective, because it has convinced you that something that's actually completely irrelevant to how a knife performs at being a knife, is somehow instead a major design feature.
 
asdf12345 said:
Nebulous, unquantifiable terms? Go take a look at ZT's copywriting. Then at Benchmade's. Then at Emerson's. Everyone does this. Some are more obnoxious about it than others, and Cold Steel is definitely one of the most. But only Benchmade and Cold Steel even provide demonstrations of their knives.

As far as framelocks go, I'm not saying that the particular knives you own have bad locks. In fact, most of the locks coming out of ZT will be just fine and be as strong as any other lock out there. But the fact that your particular knives have good locks doesn't take away from other knives whose locks failed under light hand pressure or gentle taps.
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They do so as meaningless bragging points. I consider them to be the same as 1,400hp Supras (I'm big into the Car Game as well): neat, but worthless in the big scheme of things. 1,400HP Supras are neat, but useless in day to day city driving. Being overbuilt doesn't let them perform a basic function any better than a basic off-the-lot Honda Civic.

That's my point. Locks somehow being the big sell in terms of what "hard use" a knife can take doesn't mean anything unless you're someone who uses a knife as (something that's not a knife here). Tell me, should it be a bragging right if your shoes are waterproof on the inside so they can also be used as a soup bowl?



*Really, any car with more than 200hp is.
 
Quiet said:
Also, one last point: you said Cold Steel marketing is silly. Actually, I disagree. I'd say it's quite effective, because it has convinced you that something that's actually completely irrelevant to how a knife performs at being a knife, is somehow instead a major design feature.
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Suckers are born every minute my friend.
 
PURPLEDC said:
And again have you EVERY had it actually happen to you? Or is this just more of your potential what ifs? If you apply this much suspicion with all the other time tested technology I would find it surprising if you can make toast without talking yourself out of it with all the possible issues that you think would arise.
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I like how you assumed first that I never owned any bearing knives and next that I have never experienced what I'm talking about. I'm not going to go through the entire list of bearing pivot knives I have owned because I have owned many in the past. Some with loose bearings, some with KVT and other caged bearings. I have no "suspicion" of bearings, I don't think they will fail when made well. But they are more annoying than washer pivots even in light EDC use because of dust and lint. After a few days to a week of clipping my knife to my bag, my pocket, IWB, and the drawer, there was usually enough junk in the trunk to make a noticeable difference.

I have never taken my bearing pivot knives outdoors where sand, dirt, and other assorted particles are around and on the materials I was cutting. But in this case I think it's logical to expect that with even more junk getting in the pivot area that it would be worse than the small amounts of dust & lint encountered through every day carry.

So far as bearings are unnecessary to good mechanical function of the knife, and that they cause greater inconvenience when used in dirty environments, and cost more money to have as a feature on a knife, I say that they detract from the 'hard-use' nature of any knife that they're on.
 
I used a Spyderco Sage 2 in an improper manner recently. I had to urinate in a bad way at a public park. Somehow the portable john was locked and nobody was inside. I couldn't slip into the woods there were people nearby for some function. I pulled on the door and could see the locking handle, the gap was less than an inch. I opened the Sage and used the spine of the knife as a lever to pop the lock. Tell me that's not what the knife is for or whatever but that's all I had to get the door open at that moment. Cold steel markets a lock back that is as close as one can get to having a fixed blade in a folding knife. If that doesn't appeal to you that's ok. But it is not a silly feature or unnecessary by any measure. Oh, I am loving this little Spyderco.
 
PURPLEDC said:
Comparing a triad lock to any frame lock would be like comparing that same zt against a slip joint. Its simply not apples to apples. Hell its two different food groups. The triad lock is a strong lock. No one disputes this as truth. But they designed it to be tough. Its their claim to fame. Framelocks are, and always have been a compromise. The anly way i eould even care about the comparison is if cold steel stuffs a flipper and assisted opening mech in one of their triad lock knives as then the knives would have similar features. But since we all know its not ever going to happen seeing its what they call impossible im not going to worry about it. The only lesson to be learned is that the triad lock is a stronger lock than a framelock.
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They do have assisted openers rocking the triad. Just like they have waved knives rocking the triad. You will never see a lockback with a flipper though-as it is impossible due to the design.
 
crom said:
I used a Spyderco Sage 2 in an improper manner recently. I had to urinate in a bad way at a public park. Somehow the portable john was locked and nobody was inside. I couldn't slip into the woods there were people nearby for some function. I pulled on the door and could see the locking handle, the gap was less than an inch. I opened the Sage and used the spine of the knife as a lever to pop the lock. Tell me that's not what the knife is for or whatever but that's all I had to get the door open at that moment. Cold steel markets a lock back that is as close as one can get to having a fixed blade in a folding knife. If that doesn't appeal to you that's ok. But it is not a silly feature or unnecessary by any measure. Oh, I am loving this little Spyderco.
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So, what you're saying is that your liner-lock bearing Sage is as good for hard use as the Triad-locked Cold Steel offerings? Sweet! I agree! :thumbup:
 
Quiet said:
Your points are wrong because they are standing upon the sand of faulty logic. You keep touting this "likely" failure of multiple points on Zero Tolerance knives, but the fact remains that those occurrences aren't actually "likely" and that ZT knives are just as good as any other knife for the purposes of "hard use".

Look, let's just clear up all the nebulous terminology: what does "hard use" mean to you? Prying up manhole covers, helping fat guys step up on a wooden contraption, or using the knife as something to hang weights from?

Or is it cutting a variety of materials, in a variety of environments? Because if it's the latter, guess what? Sorry, ZTs do just as well. I really don't know much clearer I can make this for you.

I'll just say it: if you need the ridiculous strength the Triad lock provides, then you shouldn't be using a folding knife in the first place, because it's clearly the wrong tool for the job. So, don't call Zero Tolerance products inferior or "not as good for hard use" because they aren't designed to be something they're not: crowbars, or weight stands.
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I said "more likely" not "likely". ZT is "more likely" to have issues with locks than on CS, but that doesn't mean that ZT locks are "likely" to have an issue. Quite the opposite.

However, I have never in my life heard of a Triad lock disengaging under hand pressure or light taps, or the Triad unlocking from light prying applications or because the handle was gripped the wrong way. Those are hardly what you would consider "hard use" instances.

So yes, you will be more likely to get unlocking issues on liner locks and framelocks. This thread happens to be about CS and ZT, but really that goes for any production company producing liner and framelocks.

And then, the fact that the Triad locked knives happen to be anywhere from 20-50% lighter for the same blade size and cost about half as much as comparable ZTs is just icing on the cake.

That's why I'm saying that CS is overall a better choice for hard use tasks - if you are of the mindset that you are purchasing a folder for that purpose. I have always qualified this claim with that caveat. If you're buying a folder to get a "nice" folder then of course you would go with ZT.
 
Goosey said:
Cold Steel has a far tougher lock and is far cheaper even with CTS XHP.

Zero Tolerance is more fancy materials, fine craftsmanship and pride of ownership.

Also, these days it seems like ZT is getting away from their "hard use tactical folders" and concentrating a lot on the high-end fancy collector runs. Witness the discontinued 0200, 0300, 0550, 0560, etc... in the past few years it seems like the ZT division has somewhat shifted its focus.

If I had to bet on a knife winning some kind of strength or toughness contest it would be the Cold Steels. And not just that but also Axis locks, ball locks, etc.

Sorry, but framelocks simply aren't very strong. IIRC they're not much (if any) better than a well-made liner lock. "My ZT lock failed" is usually met by "there's no reason to spine whack a knife" or "you must have been abusing it". Yet for some reason ZT does not make a slip joint.

I think this does irritate some folks. ;)
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Anything that has a liner or frame lock, that is billed with the words "Hard Use" is complete BS. It is like calling a Toyota Prius, a race car. Nothing wrong with a liner lock, or a frame lock-they have their place. Hard use is not it-just like there is nothing wrong wit a Prius. But it is not a supercar.
 
longbow said:
You guys kill me. Hands down the tri-ad lock is the BEST and strongest, and easiest to use locking folder out there. They have upgraded the steel to CTS XHP which is superb imho. Everyone touts this knife and that knife, and I used to be a strong proponent of the frame lock folder. Well since I have the Ultimate Hunter I've not touched another folder for a month. NADA. This U-H is that good. Matter of fact I can see where I wouldn't buy another locking folder at all of any ilk unless it is the triad lock with the up graded steel. The U-H is superbly ergonomic, looks good and feels great in the hand too. Does not scream tactical or have any recurved fancy ass useless type of compound grind etc.etc. It says Ultimate Hunter which everyone understands is a basically shaped kick ass hunting folder. Say what you want and harp on CS etc.etc. but they tell it like it is and the triad lock is a beast. Not to beat a dead horse either but when a liner lock or a frame lock fails it should fail into the locking side of the blade so it doesn't close on your hand. keepem sharp
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I'm waiting for Cold Steel to put their Triad lock in a Chatillon TCD1100 or CS1100 the way Benchmade has done with their Axis lock under the same conditions.
 
RBid said:
dwMaXr.jpg


This is how I hold a knife when I'm doing anything serious with it. Whether I'm cutting wood, making long cuts in cardboard, or any real work, I use a strong hammer grip. When I do this, I am exerting pressure on the framelock's lockbar. I'm also locked into the bottom of the flipper, exerting upward force on it. My finger is shielded.

This is the real world. It's why I can acknowledge that the TriAd lock is the clear standard in locks, while also noting that it's irrelevant for practical purposes. I am intrigued by the Ultimate Hunter in CTS XHP, but I believe that it's most truly relevant selling point is value for the dollar, not lock strength. With the steel upgrade, I believe it's an equal tool to my ZTs, for far less money. Does that mean I'll choose CS over ZT? Not at all. It does mean that I'd now add a CS. In all likelihood, my most commonly carried knife will probably be a ZT 0562 for quite awhile.
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Demko cut his finger open with the flipper. I personally do not like to get injured when my knife's lock fails.
 
Quiet, it's actually a titanium frameock with bronze washers. I thought I'd relate a story that shows there are times when a strong lock is valued for things other than normal approved knife uses by know it alls on these boards.
 
asdf12345 said:
I said "more likely" not "likely". ZT is "more likely" to have issues with locks than on CS, but that doesn't mean that ZT locks are "likely" to have an issue. Quite the opposite.

However, I have never in my life heard of a Triad lock disengaging under hand pressure or light taps, or the Triad unlocking from light prying applications or because the handle was gripped the wrong way. Those are hardly what you would consider "hard use" instances.

So yes, you will be more likely to get unlocking issues on liner locks and framelocks. This thread happens to be about CS and ZT, but really that goes for any production company producing liner and framelocks.

And then, the fact that the Triad locked knives happen to be anywhere from 20-50% lighter for the same blade size and cost about half as much as comparable ZTs is just icing on the cake.

That's why I'm saying that CS is overall a better choice for hard use tasks - if you are of the mindset that you are purchasing a folder for that purpose. I have always qualified this claim with that caveat. If you're buying a folder to get a "nice" folder then of course you would go with ZT.
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Except there isn't a shred of actual factual proof backing this assertion. Speaking of caveats, I'd add that this whole viewpoint is just your opinion, which, hey, that's cool. Do your thing. But please stop stating your opinion as a fact, because it's unequivocally incorrect.
 
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