Concerns About Survive! Business and Misleading Lead Time Estimates

[Hale Storm]

Goose, you're pretty quick sir. Posted in Tech the same time the GBU thread was running for 'research' about four months ago:




As far as this thread, I've certainly got no problem with ncrockclimb's thread here. He asks hard questions. He's vocal, passionate, critical, straight-forward. And IMO he's not lobbying against the company, just saying 'show me.' I hope you keep posting around the sub in some of the fun stuff, nc. I always appreciated your posts and consider you a friend, even if we don't agree on everything. Hell, show me two people that agree on everything and I'll show you one that's biting their tongue some of the time.

Well said Hard knocks. I really only have one issue left. I've said my piece and I'm waiting on my 2.7. I've bitched, whined, and complained but I thought I brought up a VERY valid point once. I've even stated that I still support S!K. I'm not willing to walk away yet but I'm not a happy camper.

I'll bring it up one more time since it seems to get overlooked and I'll even try to simplify it. AND the only reason is because someone mentioned it again on page 7 I think.

1. If I ordered a "pre-order" and the sales thread or website said, "we can't guarantee a delivery date". Even though I might be ticked if it was 13 months, I would have ZERO room to complain because the thread said, "we can't guarantee a delivery date". The aftermath was being updated multiple times on multiple models and nothing ever shipped on time. I believe THAT is why so many are upset. Not me.

2. Here's MY issue and I believe it to be relevant, factual, and pertinent to the discussion. The 2.7 "pre-sale" was written by Ellie and I'll quote the most relevant verbage one more time; "The knives should ship in a couple of months". I bought one on THOSE WORDS because I am intimately familiar with the wait times the past two years, and was not willing to buy other models under those circumstances. A lot of other members bought one as well on those words. Well, guess what, I feel lied to and tricked because that was July and it's now October and I'll be lucky to have my 2.7 by next year. Can anyone honestly say that this doesn't seem deceptive? A way to get me, and others to buy on the notion that the 2.7's were ready to build, sharpen, and package so buy NOW. Very similar to all the criticism of the 7/7 sales thread that said "a few months"?

3. To confound my issue, I get the 7/7 email and notice the verbage was changed to, " A few months". Now I know some will blast me here but a couple is TWO unless I'm an idiot. A "few" may be interpreted several ways I guess, but what is "several"? You get my point. That was the turning point for me that got me so upset. I love your product and spend my money with you. Don't try to deceive me. It's insulting and I took it that way.

4. NO WHERE, even in Ellie's comments lately has that issue on the 2.7 sales email/thread about "a couple months" been responded to. It feels like, "it's just Hale Storm on a bitch session so let's ignore what he said and WHY he bought a 2.7". Ignoring it does not make it okay.

5. This issue is VASTLY different than, "we can't guarantee when you will get your knife". I should have gotten my knife, "in a couple months".

I'm done. No one cares anyway. Those of us that have a legitimate issues as I feel I do with that verbage, are labeled as whiners and wanting S!K to fail. That's just wrong and totally incorrect.

November is 21 days from now. We'll see. I hope and pray it all works out and commend Ellie and Guy for making the commitment to change it by deeds rather than words.

Deer season this year would have been that much sweeter with my new 2.7 in hand. Guess it's just me, the 4.1, and the 4.7. I hear the echo of what someone said in another thread. Some of the joy has been taken from using my other GSO's............

 

[Hard Knocks]

I'm done. No one cares anyway. Those of us that have a legitimate issues as I feel I do with that verbage, are labeled as whiners and wanting S!K to fail. That's just wrong and totally incorrect.

My friend, I cared enough to offer to send down my 2.7 for you to use through season (unless you're talking about the company here?? but I can't tell from the text). I realize this wouldn't be your own, and that might take the fun out of it for you. BUT, there are folks that do care. You've got a legitimate gripe, just don't throw the baby out with the bath water. That offer is still open BTW, and happily.

 

[ncrockclimb]

Today I drove from Phoenix to Coronado with the family to spend a week at the beach, zoo and San Diego museums. Got to the hotel we always stay at on the "island," and they remembered us and upgraded us to the "Rain Man" suite. This suite is bigger than my house, and the furniture is much nicer too! With that in mind, I will probably not be very active in this thread for the rest of the week. I have said most everything I have to say anyway.

It's your thread. :thumbup:

Although, based on the current Production Schedule, you mention in the OP that you don't think that the 7/7s will ship out until the end of 2017... do you still think that? Because it looks like...

I hope you are right. It seems that a lot of folks doubt my sincerity, but I will be VERY happy if S!K turns this around.

...As far as this thread, I've certainly got no problem with ncrockclimb's thread here. He asks hard questions. He's vocal, passionate, critical, straight-forward. And IMO he's not lobbying against the company, just saying 'show me.' I hope you keep posting around the sub in some of the fun stuff, nc. I always appreciated your posts and consider you a friend, even if we don't agree on everything. Hell, show me two people that agree on everything and I'll show you one that's biting their tongue some of the time.

Thanks, Hard Knocks. I really appreciate you saying that. It means a lot.

...2. Here's MY issue and I believe it to be relevant, factual, and pertinent to the discussion. The 2.7 "pre-sale" was written by Ellie and I'll quote the most relevant verbage one more time; "The knives should ship in a couple of months". I bought one on THOSE WORDS because I am intimately familiar with the wait times the past two years, and was not willing to buy other models under those circumstances. A lot of other members bought one as well on those words. Well, guess what, I feel lied to and tricked because that was July and it's now October and I'll be lucky to have my 2.7 by next year. Can anyone honestly say that this doesn't seem deceptive? A way to get me, and others to buy on the notion that the 2.7's were ready to build, sharpen, and package so buy NOW. Very similar to all the criticism of the 7/7 sales thread that said "a few months"?

3. To confound my issue, I get the 7/7 email and notice the verbage was changed to, " A few months". Now I know some will blast me here but a couple is TWO unless I'm an idiot. A "few" may be interpreted several ways I guess, but what is "several"? You get my point. That was the turning point for me that got me so upset. I love your product and spend my money with you. Don't try to deceive me. It's insulting and I took it that way.

4. NO WHERE, even in Ellie's comments lately has that issue on the 2.7 sales email/thread about "a couple months" been responded to. It feels like, "it's just Hale Storm on a bitch session so let's ignore what he said and WHY he bought a 2.7". Ignoring it does not make it okay.

5. This issue is VASTLY different than, "we can't guarantee when you will get your knife". I should have gotten my knife, "in a couple months".

That is EXACTLY why I created this thread. I quote Hale because it is important to remember the issue that got this thread started.

 

[Hard Knocks]

.....With that in mind, I will probably not be very active in this thread for the rest of the week. I have said most everything I have to say anyway........Thanks, Hard Knocks. I really appreciate you saying that. It means a lot.........

Sure thing man. I hope you guys have a great trip :thumbup:

 

[McVeyMac]

Enjoy the suite nc, and enjoy watching "Wheel of Fortune." I must say that I have never questioned your intentions here nor Ronnie's posts. I have personally done business with both of you, and you both bring up some very valid points that I hope will be addressed by S!K. You both have contributed to this community in discussions about knives, and you have contributed here with concerns about S!K business practices. It is right to discuss these things here in a responsible manner, and you both have done this.

 

[Silver Needle]

We hear you, Hale!

Because of good people like you and the ones we've already lost, I do think this is a good discussion to be having.

 

[Hale Storm]

Thanks to all of you for the support. Thanks again for the generous offer.

I've said my piece.

For the record, as others needed to restate, I DO SUPPORT SURVIVE!KNIVES AND HOPE THIS ALL WORKS OUT. I haven't "left" yet.

My circle of "friends" continues to grow here on this forum.

I gotta get to work...........

 

[Riz!]

Hale storm... nobody should think you are a whiner or rooting for S!K failure! You posted your legitimate concerns in an articulate and respectful way. You have always been a positive contributor here and I hope you stay.

As for this thread it is a legitimate topic and it doesnt hurt to discuss it.

Some of the super-quoting and back and forth is a little irritating but i just skip over that.

 

[AmericanAsApple3.14]

Hale, i agree with the others, the comments about whiners and such aren't directed at you or NC. You both have just aired concerns and personal experiences. There's others on here who just seem to want to argue or be combative.

On your one comment about being deceived, I don't think they've intentionally deceived anyone or are trying to bait us. I obviously don't know them personally - my only interaction has been through forum postings and videos and their history I've read/heard over the last 2+ years I've been following them. But, the impression i have is they are working hard and are real people. I think the wording may be careless, and can be taken as misleading, but my personal impression and opinion is that it's not intentionally misleading or deceptive. I definitely understand your point, but for me intention is huge. It's the difference between a mistake and an outright lie. Not sure if that helps anyone, but again that's just my personal feelings.

 

[Casinostocks]

Today I drove from Phoenix to Coronado with the family to spend a week at the beach, zoo and San Diego museums. Got to the hotel we always stay at on the "island," and they remembered us and upgraded us to the "Rain Man" suite. This suite is bigger than my house, and the furniture is much nicer too! With that in mind, I will probably not be very active in this thread for the rest of the week. I have said most everything I have to say anyway.

Welcome to our beautiful City and County. Enjoy the family time and your vacay :thumbup:

 

[Standard78]

As far as this thread, I've certainly got no problem with ncrockclimb's thread here. He asks hard questions. He's vocal, passionate, critical, straight-forward. And IMO he's not lobbying against the company, just saying 'show me.' I hope you keep posting around the sub in some of the fun stuff, nc. I always appreciated your posts and consider you a friend, even if we don't agree on everything. Hell, show me two people that agree on everything and I'll show you one that's biting their tongue some of the time.

Very well said HK. There is absolutely nothing wrong with constructive criticism as long as it stays on point.

 

[timichango]

2. Here's MY issue and I believe it to be relevant, factual, and pertinent to the discussion. The 2.7 "pre-sale" was written by Ellie and I'll quote the most relevant verbage one more time; "The knives should ship in a couple of months". I bought one on THOSE WORDS because I am intimately familiar with the wait times the past two years, and was not willing to buy other models under those circumstances.

Yeah, this ^ +1.

I bought a second on a Monday sale, due to the assertion that "The orders placed each Monday will get built and shipped within 15 business days."

That's pretty unequivocal, and mine's not only over that estimate, but I've had direct assurances from Survive of not only that timeline (which they missed), but a secondary timeline (also missed).

The lateness of my order is minimal, and a drop in the bucket compared to the other massive delays that folks have experienced, but it's just another data point in SK!'s blatant inability to make commitments and stick to them. No matter the extraneous circumstances, don't make promises you can't live up to, and certainly don't do that wantonly, across your business, as a matter of course. There's just no way to excuse that behaviour.

If they could fix the simple, repetitive mismatch between what they say and what they actually do, I'd wager that 90% of the complaints would evaporate overnight.

 

[chiral.grolim]

The lateness of my order is minimal, and a drop in the bucket compared to the other massive delays that folks have experienced, but it's just another data point in SK!'s blatant inability to make commitments and stick to them. No matter the extraneous circumstances, don't make promises you can't live up to, and certainly don't do that wantonly, across your business, as a matter of course. There's just no way to excuse that behaviour.

If they could fix the simple, repetitive mismatch between what they say and what they actually do, I'd wager that 90% of the complaints would evaporate overnight.

There would still be complainers or out-right antagonists, but I think you are right on - the honest folk (like Clip, Hale Storm, ncrockclimb, etc.) may not have even felt the need to bring up S!Ks production-delay issues as a matter of "trust", since delay issues have been there for quite some time.

Hale, i agree with the others, the comments about whiners and such aren't directed at you or NC. You both have just aired concerns and personal experiences. There's others on here who just seem to want to argue or be combative.

On your one comment about being deceived, I don't think they've intentionally deceived anyone or are trying to bait us. I obviously don't know them personally - my only interaction has been through forum postings and videos and their history I've read/heard over the last 2+ years I've been following them. But, the impression i have is they are working hard and are real people. I think the wording may be careless, and can be taken as misleading, but my personal impression and opinion is that it's not intentionally misleading or deceptive. I definitely understand your point, but for me intention is huge. It's the difference between a mistake and an outright lie. Not sure if that helps anyone, but again that's just my personal feelings.

^ This post fits me as well. I've talked to them on the phone and via e-mail and here, that's as close as my personal connection to them is. Having followed them for some years now, I have been willing to invest via the Starter because I trust that they will deliver and are not trying to deceive anyone. They seem trustworthy, and also driven (which matters to me), and they put out an excellent product. :thumbup: HOWEVER, their repeated failure to post realistic delivery time-frames is, as far as I can tell (and again, my personal knowledge of them is limited) a character flaw. I hope that they don't take personal offense at me labeling it as such, and I'm not a priest or psychologist or anything like that, it just reminds me of certain aspects of myself or friends I've had in the past, family too.

People are flawed. *shrug* It's not an "excuse", is not to be excused. At the same time, I hesitate to badger them incessantly about it - plenty of other people doing that - and jump in readily to defend against unsubstantiated accusations or outright libel (again, i use this term literally, i don't care whether or not a lawyer is litigating a case). I want my knives, and I want everyone else to get their knives too. I want S!K to succeed, so i also want them to improve. Right now, all they seem to need to improve on is the accuracy of delivery estimates so that people don't feel like they've been lied to or are being ignored (z.b. Hale Storm).
It's funny - I'm fine sitting and waiting for my Starter orders to make it through production, but I think that, had I ordered an "in stock" second or UB only to see it delayed again and again, I'd probably have called them up and cancelled the order after the second delay and that would have been the end of it. It wouldn't be because I don't trust them to deliver it eventually - clearly i do, if I'm willing to accept an indefinite delivery time-frame for the starters - but the nature of that order just seems to dictate that as the "appropriate" response to missed fulfillment. *shrug*

Summation: i don't think they're lying or are deliberately misleading, or are failing and are desperate for funds, or are ignoring the concerns submitted time and again, and i also don't think that they will fail to deliver. I think that they just fail at delivery estimates.

I really hope you get your knife soon, Hale Storm.

 

[timichango]

had I ordered an "in stock" second or UB only to see it delayed again and again, I'd probably have called them up and cancelled the order after the second delay and that would have been the end of it. It wouldn't be because I don't trust them to deliver it eventually - clearly i do, if I'm willing to accept an indefinite delivery time-frame for the starters - but the nature of that order just seems to dictate that as the "appropriate" response to missed fulfillment. *shrug*

Yep. Should they fail to get me shipping information by tomorrow, that's exactly going to be my course of action. I don't need the knife, as I have others in the same general size and form factor which are also excellent knives, and I'd frankly rather put the money towards another small maker who creates ostensibly equivalent or nicer products, without the shenanigans, at a very modest price increase.

Summation: i don't think they're lying or are deliberately misleading, or are failing and are desperate for funds, or are ignoring the concerns submitted time and again, and i also don't think that they will fail to deliver. I think that they just fail at delivery estimates.

The problem isn't just that they fail at estimates (and actual commitments): it's that their failure to address that failure meaningfully indicates that they think it isn't a serious transgression. As you say, I think that's (and I also cringe at saying this, but feel it needs saying) a character flaw. If I delivered absolutely perfect work to my clients, but was consistently late, and failing to meet commitments I made, my business reputation would be very quickly destroyed, my referrals would dry up, and I'd go broke rather quickly.

It's a serious issue if anyone, in any business, routinely fails to deliver on time, particularly when they quote actual timeframes. That's a breach of contract. I keep hoping that — at a minimum —*SK comes to realize this, and delivers frank communication about how they can't meet even the hard commitments they've made, and then issue new commitments that they will 100% adhere to. As others have said, the rolling production schedule updates neither explain away past missed commitments, nor establish (or negotiate, which would be appropriate) new ones, where hard commitments have been made and already broken.

I don't buy any argument that they can't accomplish that kind of bare-minimum face-saving communication: if they can't make new commitments that they can actually stick to, then they haven't improved their forecasting, and more of the same dissatisfaction will continue to brew.

All of which is exceedingly unfortunate. I very genuinely want to see them stem the bleeding, but I feel like them just cranking away in the shop, and not changing anything else, isn't going to produce materially different results moving forward. I really hope I'm wrong.

I really hope you get your knife soon, Hale Storm.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

 

[Fancier]

I have some observations about the artistic temperament but I suspect that they would mostly fall on deaf ears.
Regardless, and like it or not, the small shop knife business seems to be kind of a cottage industry and apparently doesn't work quite the way that most of the rest of us are accustomed to in our own lives.
That may strike some of us as unfair, but I am pretty sure that the folks at Survive are completely aware of the frustration that missing deadlines creates, and that they've been aware of the problem since at least December of 2015.

 

[timichango]

I have some observations about the artistic temperament but I suspect that they would mostly fall on deaf ears.
Regardless, and like it or not, the small shop knife business seems to be kind of a cottage industry and apparently doesn't work quite the way that most of the rest of us are accustomed to in our own lives.
That may strike some of us as unfair, but I am pretty sure that the folks at Survive are completely aware of the frustration that missing deadlines creates, and that they've been aware of the problem since at least December of 2015.

I'm not sure how it differs from other 'cottage industries' — business is business, and if you repeatedly blow deadline commitments, your credibility suffers. This entire issue can be summed up in that statement, no matter how you want to dress it up with extenuating circumstances, more promises, great products, or whatever other factors get trotted out.

I know plenty of folks, personally and professionally, that do business in both goods and services, in the creative/artistic fields and otherwise, and not a one of them would argue that missing deadlines is no big deal, because they realize the above to be true. I don't for a second buy that it's an issue specific to knives or small knife businesses.

I agree that survive must be well aware of the dissatisfaction, and lost credibility, that the gradient of blown timelines — ranging from implied to specific — is to blame for. The issue is that they're simply not changing that pattern, and just continuing as usual: trying to brute-force their way through to increased production, without actually taking stock of what in their communication patterns is hurting their credibility so significantly. This, to some of us, really makes it seem like they don't put much stock in their word, or at least are comfortable valuing their own word variably, depending on the subject (eg. quality vs. timelines).

 

[Clip.]

All good points made. And I'm really ecstatic this thread has made it to ten pages without much bloodshed!

For me, it was summed up as: they offered a delivery date and I held them to it. It slipped and I was understanding for a while, but it got to be too much. I handled it the same way I would handle any other job I'd contract out. If you continually miss deadlines with poor communication, more than likely someone else will be able to finish the job that I need done. No difference between making me a knife, putting a roof on my house or commissioning someone to chisel a 400' high statue of a hedgehog. I pay the money, you meet the deadline. If you're having trouble finding a 400' piece of granite that's suitable for the hedgehog, be up front with me and I might just reduce my expectation to 300'.

I am still following the Monday sales closely and am encouraged by people getting shipping notices. Maybe give a year and there's hope for me to get a 2nd direct from S! yet.

 

[chiral.grolim]

All good points made. And I'm really ecstatic this thread has made it to ten pages without much bloodshed!

For me, it was summed up as: they offered a delivery date and I held them to it. It slipped and I was understanding for a while, but it got to be too much. I handled it the same way I would handle any other job I'd contract out. If you continually miss deadlines with poor communication, more than likely someone else will be able to finish the job that I need done. No difference between making me a knife, putting a roof on my house or commissioning someone to chisel a 400' high statue of a hedgehog. I pay the money, you meet the deadline. If you're having trouble finding a 400' piece of granite that's suitable for the hedgehog, be up front with me and I might just reduce my expectation to 300'.

I am still following the Monday sales closely and am encouraged by people getting shipping notices. Maybe give a year and there's hope for me to get a 2nd direct from S! yet.

LOL!

Very glad that i was not drinking while reading that, would have sprayed my computer screen

 

[Revolverrodger]

All good points made. And I'm really ecstatic this thread has made it to ten pages without much bloodshed!

For me, it was summed up as: they offered a delivery date and I held them to it. It slipped and I was understanding for a while, but it got to be too much. I handled it the same way I would handle any other job I'd contract out. If you continually miss deadlines with poor communication, more than likely someone else will be able to finish the job that I need done. No difference between making me a knife, putting a roof on my house or commissioning someone to chisel a 400' high statue of a hedgehog. I pay the money, you meet the deadline. If you're having trouble finding a 400' piece of granite that's suitable for the hedgehog, be up front with me and I might just reduce my expectation to 300'.

I am still following the Monday sales closely and am encouraged by people getting shipping notices. Maybe give a year and there's hope for me to get a 2nd direct from S! yet.

I also used to be irritated by SK for missing the deadline
But then I scorred an UB and I was happy again!

 

[Tim the Wizard]

Seems like it would be pretty simple for the boss to come on here and set it straight in simple terms. The absence of that voice is confusing.