Concerns About Survive! Business and Misleading Lead Time Estimates

[mlmcasual]

Youtube. Folks, it has always been youtube. There was even a thread asking about how S!K got so big to be selling out of knives 1000 at a time with almost no marketing.
BlackScoutSurvival
Equip2Endure
Nutnfancy
GideonsTactical
Survive! is an internet-based company, and Guy came here way back when to stimulate interest in his original designs, but that is NOT what brought on the massive expansion of orders.
Most customers looking to buy "the best knife for the money" do a google search (or similar) looking for images and especially for videos. There really aren't that many youtube reviews of S!K products, but nearly every one I have seen extols the knives in one way or another. Google "survive knives" and you get their website, this subforum, facebook, etc., but click the "videos" tab and you are OFF!

Interesting theory, but don't see any factual proof of that and sounds more like conjecture on your part.

People who find this subforum got here from somewhere, but there are NO WHERE NEAR enough people trafficking this forum to account for all of S!K's orders, which should tell you right away that people order from S!K without ever coming here, maybe without ever checking FB (I know that a lot of people abandoned that platform - too ugly and time-killing), the instagram people seem a lot more calm (I don't have an account there but do read comments), and internet blogsters have even less traffic.

Again, conjecture..

NO ONE has been waiting on a S! knife for 2 years yet.

The backlog hasn't existed long enough for that to happen, so an irrelevant argument. Give it another year and see.

It also implies believing the rep when she says, "We're improving", and YES giving the "benefit of the doubt". If you are NOT willing to give that trust, then you are the "bad guy" in the relationship.

That makes no sense whatsoever given full context. If you are the one being told something that changes over and over, how does that make you the "bad guy" because you no longer willing to give the benefit of doubt.

Someone asserted that this thread is supposedly a "cause" of "improvements" in production or communication, etc. I see no evidence of that, no more than the silly "EDComm" blog-post getting the blogger his knife any faster than it already was coming.

Ellie responded to concerns here, talked about seeing some changes come November, Been dialog back and forth what more proof do you need? Seems like selective judgment or lack of attention to just write this thread off

Don't kid yourself thinking that your attacks (that's not many people, that's just a few) on the company are making a positive difference.\

Who is attacking here? Don't kid yourself into thinking you know what is and what is not effective. Sounds a bit presumptuous on your part.

Going back to the title of this thread, this is yet ANOTHER line of, "Here's how S!K should be doing business," and we've had about enough of those, haven't we? Nothing new to see/read other than about knives shipping out and customers being satisfied or asking for and receiving a refund

.
So what's YOUR point? Just to critique what others can and can't say and the quality of what they say? Who cares about YOUR judgment of other's posts other then yourself?

The company remains in business and has STILL never failed to deliver, they just take a while. Maybe one day S!K will close this forum altogether like ESEE, Kershaw, others *shrug* They don't NEED a presence here, people. Their products speak for themselves and sell with or without this forum.

Again, what is your POINT? To tell us that SK doesn't "NEED" to be here and this is just a place of positive reinforcement? They Also don't NEED Facebook and yet they keep it open with FAR more critical and outright unfair flames. Who are you to champion their cause and tell us what we should be thankful for?

 

[Silver Needle]

Now, people can troll the comments sections of those videos and attack the company every way possible (like one common poster in this thread who presents a very different tone here on BF, leading me to distrust EVERY post he makes), but how many people actually READ the comments on such videos?

Interesting theory, but don't see any factual proof of that and sounds more like conjecture on your part.

The fact that you responded to chiral's very vague comment doesn't exactly make you look innocent. There are a lot of nice guys here, so much so, nobody has straight out blasted you for your questionable behavior. You can say whatever you want, but we all know. You're not fooling anyone.

Do you really want to go up against chiral? He's one of the most knowledgeable and well liked guys here. If you're trying to alienate yourself even more, go for it.

You didn't take my advice before about adopting a nicer tone in this thread, but posts like your last one aren't helping your image.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Interesting theory, but don't see any factual proof of that and sounds more like conjecture on your part.

No, Ellie stated it previously. Go find it yourself.

Again, conjecture..

No, simple deduction (you can check the traffic, also ask around).

The backlog hasn't existed long enough for that to happen, so an irrelevant argument. Give it another year and see.

Was your argument, Mark. I agree, it is irrelevant when the facts are made clear :thumbup: As to the "give it another year", THAT would be "conjecture"

That makes no sense whatsoever given full context. If you are the one being jilted over and over, how does that make you the "bad guy" because you no longer willing to give the benefit of doubt.

Who has been jilted "in full context"? Because the "context" was those who have accepted a lack of guaranteed delivery time and are willing to trust in the company. If you did this, instead of cancelling your order, to then keep coming back with notions of being "jilted" and refusing to give benefit of the doubt while also "trusting" and not asking for the refund, THAT makes no sense in business but ESPECIALLY makes no sense in a relationship - been there, done that. Like I said, if the guy/girl misses your date multiple times without an "acceptable" excuse during your brief 30-day relationship, you hanging around to try and guilt-trip him/her into another date definitely shows a character issue, makes you the "bad guy", just ask any girl.

Ellie responded to concerns here, talked about seeing some changes come November, Been dialog back and forth what more proof do you need? Seems like selective judgment or lack of attention to just write this thread off

Ellie responds in most threads on the subject of their production schedule, and also in threads NOT about the production schedule. It is nothing new nor exceptional, it is indistinguishable from a "control" = no evidence of difference. Make sense?

Who is attacking here? Don't kid yourself into thinking you know what is and what is not effective. Sounds a bit presumptuous on your part.

Perhaps. My judgement is based on history and also on the effectiveness of the supposed method in a variety of fields. Also (as previously mentioned) the source of the assertion (one who tries to portray a VERY different character on BF vs elsewhere) makes the assertion itself VERY dubious at the outset. When someone known for calling the company a "pyramid scheme" (which makes no sense whatsoever) and telling customers "buyer beware" thinks they are contributing positively to a company...

So what's YOUR point? Just to critique what others can and can't say and the quality of what they say? Who cares about YOUR judgment of other's posts other then yourself?

Evidently you do. The fact is as I stated, this has become just another, "This is how S!K should do business," thread. "what others can and can't say" has nothing to do with me, nor did i assert anything related thereunto, but I will critique the "quality" of posts as i see fit. Or are you saying that i am not allowed to do that, just you?

Again, what is your POINT? To tell us that SK doesn't "NEED" to be here and this is just a place of positive reinforcement? They Also don't NEED Facebook and yet they keep it open with FAR more critical and outright unfair flames. Who are you to champion their cause and tell us what we should be thankful for?

Interesting line of attack. You find it offensive that they don't actually need any of the places that you try to smear them, and find it offensive that i point that out. o_0 Why?

I am not here to tell you what you "should be thankful for", but i guess you could construe my post to mean that since it points out that, while your Survive! knife is a "sure thing", this subforum is not. Others have left due to the cost of maintaining a presence where they didn't feel well supported. Facebook is free (for now), but Ellie and Jordyn barely seem to touch it, and Ellie has commented that she just hasn't bothered to kill it yet. You may consider me a "champion" for pointing that out, but that makes the quality of your judgements HIGHLY suspect

 

[mlmcasual]

The fact that you responded to chiral's very vague comment doesn't exactly make you look innocent. There are a lot of nice guys here, so much so, nobody has straight out blasted you for your questionable behavior. You can say whatever you want, but we all know. You're not fooling anyone.

Do you really want to go up against chiral? He's one of the most knowledgeable and well liked guys here. If you're trying to alienate yourself even more, go for it.

You didn't take my advice before about adopting a nicer tone in this thread, but posts like your last one aren't helping your image.

Silver, What the heck are you talking about?
You need to re-read what I posted. I said his assumption sales comes from video was conjecture. How am I not fooling anyone, you are talking in riddles and like we are in some middle school gossip club passing notes. What do you mean by nice "tone". I try to be respectful but can't help if you don't like my tone and could care less about my "image". what is this a beauty contest? I am not running for public office.

As far as "taking on".. With all due respect, I don't see much of a "challenge" pointing out the absurd, strawman, apples to oranges, etc. etc. Just pointing out stuff I disagree with.

 

[Silver Needle]

I was totally reading into the wrong part of chiral's post. The part of you blasting SURVIVE! and their forum members outside of Bladeforums.

Carry on.

 

[mlmcasual]

No, Ellie stated it previously. Go find it yourself.

Really? Didn't see it. I'll look for it. Either way, presumptions do not equal a deduction. Your premises have to be true for it to be a deduction, otherwise it's conjecture. I was just not sure your premises where true so it sounded more like conjecture then a deduction to me.

Was your argument, Mark. I agree, it is irrelevant when the facts are made clear :thumbup: As to the "give it another year", THAT would be "conjecture"

Who is Mark? your attempt to insult me or be cute, we are dong pet names now? Ok, Petey. Well Petey, give it another year is not a conclusion and not conjecture so you are wrong there.

Who has been jilted "in full context"? Because the "context" was those who have accepted a lack of guaranteed delivery time and are willing to trust in the company. If you did this, instead of cancelling your order, to then keep coming back with notions of being "jilted" and refusing to give benefit of the doubt while also "trusting" and not asking for the refund, THAT makes no sense in business but ESPECIALLY makes no sense in a relationship - been there, done that. Like I said, if the guy/girl misses your date multiple times without an "acceptable" excuse during your brief 30-day relationship, you hanging around to try and guilt-trip him/her into another date definitely shows a character issue, makes you the "bad guy", just ask any girl.

Sorry, I had used the wrong word and replaced it beofre you responded. Jilted was not an appropriate description.

Ellie responds in most threads on the subject of their production schedule, and also in threads NOT about the production schedule. It is nothing new nor exceptional, it is indistinguishable from a "control" = no evidence of difference. Make sense?

That does not negate your statement the thread added nothing to communication.

Perhaps. My judgement is based on history and also on the effectiveness of the supposed method in a variety of fields. Also (as previously mentioned) the source of the assertion (one who tries to portray a VERY different character on BF vs elsewhere) makes the assertion itself VERY dubious at the outset. When someone known for calling the company a "pyramid scheme" (which makes no sense whatsoever) and telling customers "buyer beware" thinks they are contributing positively to a company...

Why do you talk in circular references as if to obfuscate some hidden insult or accusation. Is that supposed to impress me with how smart you are? Just talk straight. Are you saying people here or myself called a company a pyramid scheme? 

Evidently you do. The fact is as I stated, this has become just another, "This is how S!K should do business," thread. "what others can and can't say" has nothing to do with me, nor did i assert anything related thereunto, but I will critique the "quality" of posts as i see fit. Or are you saying that i am not allowed to do that, just you?

No, by all means knock yourself out if it makes you happy. I don't see how it's productive or useful to anyone other then yourself though. I'll be happy to critique your fragmented erroneous rhetoric and you can critique the "quality" and worthiness of others as it suits you.

Interesting line of attack. You find it offensive that they don't actually need any of the places that you try to smear them, and find it offensive that i point that out. o_0 Why?

How have I tried to smear them? I didn't think my posts here on BF as "smears". And never said I was offended that they don't need this or any other venue. Nice deflection attempt but you miss.

I am not here to tell you what you "should be thankful for", but i guess you could construe my post to mean that since it points out that, while your Survive! knife is a "sure thing", this subforum is not. Others have left due to the cost of maintaining a presence where they didn't feel well supported. Facebook is free (for now), but Ellie and Jordyn barely seem to touch it, and Ellie has commented that she just hasn't bothered to kill it yet. You may consider me a "champion" for pointing that out, but that makes the quality of your judgements HIGHLY suspect

Your piety fools no one. Apparently you ARE here to lecture us since you take it upon yourself to point out and judge the quality and value of those that post here. You reveal that by your own admission Petey.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Mlm You sound like the type of guy who likes to argue for the sake of arguing
Please clarify what you want to achieve with your posts...

 

[Silver Needle]

Let's take this to the chat thread. Before mlm got involved I think there was some good discussion happening and I'd hate to see the thread locked because of him.

 

[ndmiller]

Anyone want to close this thread already, all points and counterpoints have been made already.

 

[Silver Needle]

This could be a good place to chat in November. Maybe for that reason we could keep it open.

 

[mlmcasual]

Let's take this to the chat thread. Before mlm got involved I think there was some good discussion happening and I'd hate to see the thread locked because of him.

Right, because I pose a response to those that want to say this thread has no value I am the one that derailed it. Makes perfect sense.

 

[ncrockclimb]

This could be a good place to chat in November. Maybe for that reason we could keep it open.

Yup. I agree.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Really? Didn't see it. I'll look for it. ... I was just not sure your premises where true so it sounded more like conjecture then a deduction to me.

No deduction required for that one, and still not "conjecture". Unlike your assertion that the company will be more than two years behind on orders - THAT is "conjecture", no matter how likely. It will also be a "first" for the company. I'm not sure why that would worry anyone.

Who is Mark?

Dishonest.

Sorry, I had used the wrong word and replaced it beofre you responded. Jilted was not an appropriate description.

It showed up in my quoted reply. It was an appropriate description given the context of the discussion, but i guess that you didn't actually understand the context. *shrug* Your problem wasn't the word.

That does not negate your statement the thread added nothing to communication.

You are using words that I did not use. If you wish to comment upon a statement that I made, comment upon my words, not your own version.

Are you saying people here or myself called a company a pyramid scheme?

Yes, and your asking is dishonest in and of itself.

I don't see how it's productive or useful

Is that why you replied directly to attack my post when I did not do so to you? And yet you have learned things from the post, which evinces some utility, no?

How have I tried to smear them? I didn't think my posts here on BF as "smears". And never said I was offended that they don't need this or any other venue. Nice deflection attempt but you miss.

Miss what? I asked why it offended you that I pointed out a fact, you now type that it does not offend you, despite your "who are you to..." comments to the contrary. But your posts elsewhere are not unknown to the folk here on BF. To be here, we must both have internet access and also be able to read. It would be silly to presume that we only read here.

Your piety fools no one. Apparently you ARE here to lecture us since you take it upon yourself to point out and judge the quality and value of those that post here. You reveal that by your own admission.

"Piety"? o_0

Is it not obvious to you how easily this line can be turned around?
I posted some data and my assessment based on that data, you attacked my post (though not my second, which also gives an opinion) and take it upon yourself to judge its "quality and value". I responded point by point in my defense. Is that not my prerogative? The "admission" you assert must be this:

...but I will critique the "quality" of posts as i see fit. Or are you saying that i am not allowed to do that, just you?"

This is a statement of prerogative - you do not have the authority to deny anyone from commenting on posts or threads, I can post critiques of posts if I desire to, just as you can. Not so?

 

[Silver Needle]

I already quoted Mark in the chat thread to make a clean transition for us all

 

[chiral.grolim]

Yup. I agree.

It's your thread. :thumbup:


Although, based on the current Production Schedule, you mention in the OP that you don't think that the 7/7s will ship out until the end of 2017... do you still think that? Because it looks like the 4.1s may be shipping out next month, and the 7/7s are right there in the shop ... and not likely to be in as great of quantities, not so? So while I very-much doubt that we'll see any 7/7s in the wild before Christmas, I'd be surprised if we aren't seeing them by Spring 2017...
The 5.1s went FAST, the 4.7s have been slow... really slow. But 2.7s have been shipping already and the 4.1s are waiting on sheaths ... and the 7/7s are right there!

Call me optimistic, but the OP statement, "the fact that the most recent round of 7/7 sales will probably not ship before the end of 2017 (and that is a generous estimate imho)", seems like it could use a revision...? Or do you think that there will be another big hiccup? I am hopeful :thumbup:

 

[Silver Needle]

I don't think he would complain if we saw 7/7's earlier!

I just really really really really really really really really really really really really want November to be a big month

 

[Goose 7279]

Silver and chiral i respect you guys alot and thanks silver for clearing up the ops points ops stance
This thread does seem like alot of hate is brewing.
Mlmcasual you are being pretty confrontational and it doesnt seem like there is any bone in your body that wishes or wants survive to succeed or pull throught this

 

[CataD]

Interesting theory, but don't see any factual proof of that and sounds more like conjecture on your part.

Not a theory, it's reality for me and might be for many more. I bought my first 3 S!K (from Dealers) before I even knew about the existence of Bladeforums. It was Youtube ( Nutnfancy and equip2endure) that got my interest in Survive!, it was the quality of the product that made me do a bit more research and found the Forums...

Next 4 GSOs I bought from S!K directly. Not counting the ones I have on order at the moment...

Hope this helps.

 

[Hard Knocks]

Silver and chiral i respect you guys alot and thanks silver for clearing up the ops points ops stance
This thread does seem like alot of hate is brewing.
Mlmcasual you are being pretty confrontational and it doesnt seem like there is any bone in your body that wishes or wants survive to succeed or pull throught this

Goose, you're pretty quick sir. Posted in Tech the same time the GBU thread was running for 'research' about four months ago:

I am a private Knife collector and not affiliated with either a hosted manufacture or knife maker.

My question, is there a "criteria" for a manufacture or knife maker to maintain their hosted Forum on BladeForums?

Specifically, is it possible for a manufacturer or knife-maker change in business practice (or customer complaints) that BladeForums would NOT tolerate and terminate that manufacture/Knifemaker's hosted forum? For example, would it be possible for manufacturer to change business model-operations to something deamed by BladeForums owner as non legit and would revoke their forums spot?

If yes, where is the bar set? Is it case by case- or are there some clear laid out business practices that BladeForums would not tolerate from the manufacture / knifemake they host to.

Thanks for response.

As far as this thread, I've certainly got no problem with ncrockclimb's thread here. He asks hard questions. He's vocal, passionate, critical, straight-forward. And IMO he's not lobbying against the company, just saying 'show me.' I hope you keep posting around the sub in some of the fun stuff, nc. I always appreciated your posts and consider you a friend, even if we don't agree on everything. Hell, show me two people that agree on everything and I'll show you one that's biting their tongue some of the time.

 

[Silver Needle]

Silver and chiral i respect you guys alot and thanks silver for clearing up the ops points ops stance
This thread does seem like alot of hate is brewing.
Mlmcasual you are being pretty confrontational and it doesnt seem like there is any bone in your body that wishes or wants survive to succeed or pull throught this

I agree on all points! I totally get that a lot of us would rather not deal with controversial topics, we have seen a lot nonsense in the past. If we're able to keep the tone of the OP, a lot could come out of this.

Glad you're here, Goose.