Concerns About Survive! Business and Misleading Lead Time Estimates

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Panthera tigris said:
Seems like it would be pretty simple for the boss to come on here and set it straight in simple terms. The absence of that voice is confusing.
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Shrug. I doubt folks much care what Guy has to say at this point, until it's proved true by matching action. I think that's the point.

New commitments to improve things soon ring hollow when prior commitments have been unmet. There's trust and credibility to rebuild, and that's going to take time and consistency on their part.

Once "in stock" means "ships within 24 hours", consistently, I reckon they'll find themselves in a better place, since they obviously can't hack the advance sales model they've been using.


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I have been reluctant to describe where I am on all of this because I did not want to just post a knee jerk reaction to the S!K situation. I think that S! has earned a thoughtful and fair response from me. I have several preorder knives on order, and I placed those orders with no preconceived notion of when I was going to receive these knives. Each one has gone longer than I would have expected, but here again it has not bothered me that much because I entered this with my eyes wide open.

The CFV 4.7 order is a horse of a completely different color though. In April I was notified that these were available, and that I could expect delivery by the end of May. I placed my order with an expectation that I would receive the knife at least by the end of June. I never received any notification on the order, and in July I sent an email inquiring about the order. This email went unanswered for a month or more. Eventually I received an email in August from Jordyn describing that the coating had delayed assembly. And the knife arrived in September. They missed their promised delivery by 400%. I have posted elsewhere how this situation really had angered me.

I have decided that I will let my preorders ride and take a wait and see attitude with Monday sales and other sales notification emails. No longer am I willing to place an order with a delivery expectation when I know that there is no way that the company will be able to meet that expectation. Obviously I am not important enough to even receive an email or a phone call with an explanation of the missed date, and a revised delivery date being provided with an offer for a refund because of them missing the date. This is very basic customer care, and will become my standard of care required before I am willing to place another order. If S! is able to provide this level of care, I am in. If they are not able to, I have likely placed my last order with S!K. I walked away from S!K once when they were operating out of Gettysburg because of this very issue, and I started following them again last year. I was hoping that they had matured enough as a business after the move, and that they were making changes to their business to not allow the mistakes of the past happen again. Apparently that is not yet the case. The points that ncrockclimb point out are accurate and do give me pause regarding the pre sale situation, cash flow and digging a deeper hole every day. But I am committed to see these commitments on my part through, and am willing to let these orders ride. But I am not willing to place another order on a knife until these business practices are addressed and fixed regarding shipping dates and customer communication.
 
The harsh reality is that because of the quality of the product people will keep buying them even if you don't
They never have any stock because they sell out in an instant

The problem was the preorders and that problem will only be fixed when the ship out the last of the preorder knife (gso 8)
To expect a quick fix is unrealistic

The good news is that if you wait you will get your knife eventually, if not someone else will buy it
 
Clip. said:
All good points made. And I'm really ecstatic this thread has made it to ten pages without much bloodshed!

For me, it was summed up as: they offered a delivery date and I held them to it. It slipped and I was understanding for a while, but it got to be too much. I handled it the same way I would handle any other job I'd contract out. If you continually miss deadlines with poor communication, more than likely someone else will be able to finish the job that I need done. No difference between making me a knife, putting a roof on my house or commissioning someone to chisel a 400' high statue of a hedgehog. I pay the money, you meet the deadline. If you're having trouble finding a 400' piece of granite that's suitable for the hedgehog, be up front with me and I might just reduce my expectation to 300'.

I am still following the Monday sales closely and am encouraged by people getting shipping notices. Maybe give a year and there's hope for me to get a 2nd direct from S! yet.
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Best reply ever! :thumbup:
 
McVeyMac said:
I have been reluctant to describe where I am on all of this because I did not want to just post a knee jerk reaction to the S!K situation. I think that S! has earned a thoughtful and fair response from me. I have several preorder knives on order, and I placed those orders with no preconceived notion of when I was going to receive these knives. Each one has gone longer than I would have expected, but here again it has not bothered me that much because I entered this with my eyes wide open.

The CFV 4.7 order is a horse of a completely different color though. In April I was notified that these were available, and that I could expect delivery by the end of May. I placed my order with an expectation that I would receive the knife at least by the end of June. I never received any notification on the order, and in July I sent an email inquiring about the order. This email went unanswered for a month or more. Eventually I received an email in August from Jordyn describing that the coating had delayed assembly. And the knife arrived in September. They missed their promised delivery by 400%. I have posted elsewhere how this situation really had angered me.

I have decided that I will let my preorders ride and take a wait and see attitude with Monday sales and other sales notification emails. No longer am I willing to place an order with a delivery expectation when I know that there is no way that the company will be able to meet that expectation. Obviously I am not important enough to even receive an email or a phone call with an explanation of the missed date, and a revised delivery date being provided with an offer for a refund because of them missing the date. This is very basic customer care, and will become my standard of care required before I am willing to place another order. If S! is able to provide this level of care, I am in. If they are not able to, I have likely placed my last order with S!K. I walked away from S!K once when they were operating out of Gettysburg because of this very issue, and I started following them again last year. I was hoping that they had matured enough as a business after the move, and that they were making changes to their business to not allow the mistakes of the past happen again. Apparently that is not yet the case. The points that ncrockclimb point out are accurate and do give me pause regarding the pre sale situation, cash flow and digging a deeper hole every day. But I am committed to see these commitments on my part through, and am willing to let these orders ride. But I am not willing to place another order on a knife until these business practices are addressed and fixed regarding shipping dates and customer communication.
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Thanks for the thoughtful post. I guess one big difference between me and you is that I assumed that they wouldn't make their deadlines before I placed an order.
In fact I'm kind of annoyed at them every time that they state a new shipping time frame because of the potential problems caused when they don't meet it.
 
Revolverrodger said:
The harsh reality is that because of the quality of the product people will keep buying them even if you don't
They never have any stock because they sell out in an instant

The problem was the preorders and that problem will only be fixed when the ship out the last of the preorder knife (gso 8)
To expect a quick fix is unrealistic

The good news is that if you wait you will get your knife eventually, if not someone else will buy it
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I suspect that you are correct. And one of the knives I have on order is a GSO 8. I just can no longer tolerate this from a customer care standpoint. I don't expect that there is a quick fix. I just don't expect to be ordering any more knives until there is a fix.

Fancier said:
Thanks for the thoughtful post. I guess one big difference between me and you is that I assumed that they wouldn't make their deadlines before I placed an order.
In fact I'm kind of annoyed at them every time that they state a new shipping time frame because of the potential problems caused when they don't meet it.
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I really did not expect them to make the end of of May deadline either, so I doubled it. I guess a 4 X multiplication was required in this instance. This tolerance level is an individual decision that we all have to make, and I have determined mine yet again. If I did not have a good representation of old spec. GSO knives, a new spec. 4.7 and a 5.1 I got off the Exchange at a pretty reasonable price, I likely would have different tolerances to this situation. The 4.1 is on deck, so soon enough I will have three new spec. knives in the size category I use most. I have the full range of what I want in the old spec. sizes as well. For those new customers who do not have any GSO knives, the missed shipping expectation might be much more tolerable to them. Again going in with eyes wide open just as I have done with the pre-orders.
 
As a side-note, i have it on good authority that sheaths for the new 4.1s will be arriving at the shop in a day or so :cool:
 
:thumbup::thumbup:
McVeyMac said:
I have been reluctant to describe where I am on all of this because I did not want to just post a knee jerk reaction to the S!K situation. I think that S! has earned a thoughtful and fair response from me. I have several preorder knives on order, and I placed those orders with no preconceived notion of when I was going to receive these knives. Each one has gone longer than I would have expected, but here again it has not bothered me that much because I entered this with my eyes wide open.

The CFV 4.7 order is a horse of a completely different color though. In April I was notified that these were available, and that I could expect delivery by the end of May. I placed my order with an expectation that I would receive the knife at least by the end of June. I never received any notification on the order, and in July I sent an email inquiring about the order. This email went unanswered for a month or more. Eventually I received an email in August from Jordyn describing that the coating had delayed assembly. And the knife arrived in September. They missed their promised delivery by 400%. I have posted elsewhere how this situation really had angered me.

I have decided that I will let my preorders ride and take a wait and see attitude with Monday sales and other sales notification emails. No longer am I willing to place an order with a delivery expectation when I know that there is no way that the company will be able to meet that expectation. Obviously I am not important enough to even receive an email or a phone call with an explanation of the missed date, and a revised delivery date being provided with an offer for a refund because of them missing the date. This is very basic customer care, and will become my standard of care required before I am willing to place another order. If S! is able to provide this level of care, I am in. If they are not able to, I have likely placed my last order with S!K. I walked away from S!K once when they were operating out of Gettysburg because of this very issue, and I started following them again last year. I was hoping that they had matured enough as a business after the move, and that they were making changes to their business to not allow the mistakes of the past happen again. Apparently that is not yet the case. The points that ncrockclimb point out are accurate and do give me pause regarding the pre sale situation, cash flow and digging a deeper hole every day. But I am committed to see these commitments on my part through, and am willing to let these orders ride. But I am not willing to place another order on a knife until these business practices are addressed and fixed regarding shipping dates and customer communication.
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SURVIVE! Ellie said:
As I mentioned before, with the unexpected issues that have been popping up we had to completely reassess our processes and everything is sorted out now. Between that, and me being back in the workshop things around here are going MUCH more smoothly. I totally understand the frustrations with the wait times but I would encourage everyone to just wait a couple more weeks before revisiting this conversation. By that time you should really start seeing some tangible results of those changes. In the meantime, please refrain from the snark and any personal attacks.
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This thread just keeps going back and forth. I appreciate Ellie’s response and think it would be best at this time to just lock the thread or let it go. I see no usefulness to the back and forth with BF members. Ellie has responded on behalf of survive knives and I think at this point and time it’s fair to allow them the few weeks or so to see if things have improved. Adding and training people does take some time. Updating delivery dates is just an estimate and at this point a waste time that could be used elsewhere.

Clearly they have heard us and are trying to respond by producing knives as fast as they can while still maintain their high standards of quality. I have a number of blades on order and am willing to wait for the quality blade I expect otherwise I would have went with a mass produced blade.

Let’s give them the space and time Ellie requested and address this down the road if we need to at that point.
 
Shark01 said:
This thread just keeps going back and forth. I appreciate Ellie’s response and think it would be best at this time to just lock the thread or let it go. I see no usefulness to the back and forth with BF members. Ellie has responded on behalf of survive knives and I think at this point and time it’s fair to allow them the few weeks or so to see if things have improved. Adding and training people does take some time. Updating delivery dates is just an estimate and at this point a waste time that could be used elsewhere.

Clearly they have heard us and are trying to respond by producing knives as fast as they can while still maintain their high standards of quality. I have a number of blades on order and am willing to wait for the quality blade I expect otherwise I would have went with a mass produced blade.

Let’s give them the space and time Ellie requested and address this down the road if we need to at that point.
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I agree that enough has been said but the thread should stay open IMHO. We are very close to November and that is the date we were all given that we would see the changes. Let's be fair and see what happens. There may be others who have something to add or questions that deserve answers. At least if the thread is open, we can all come to the same place to praise, criticize, or ask questions.

If S! doesn't show that miracle in November, this thread will be re-ignited and we will have much to discuss.
 
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Hale Storm said:
I agree that enough has been said but the thread should stay open IMHO. We are very close to November and that is the date we were all given that we would see the changes. Let's be fair and see what happens. There may be others who have something to add or questions that deserve answers. At least if the thread is open, we can all come to the same place to praise, criticize, or ask questions.

If S! doesn't show that miracle in November, this thread will be re-ignited and we will have much to discuss.
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Goose 7279 said:
Silver and chiral i respect you guys alot and thanks silver for clearing up the ops points ops stance
This thread does seem like alot of hate is brewing.
Mlmcasual you are being pretty confrontational and it doesnt seem like there is any bone in your body that wishes or wants survive to succeed or pull throught this
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Not so. I still have (some) knives including a 2.7 Monday sale invested so I absolutely want them to pull through and have been saying it. Plenty of confrontation besides me in this thread, but you make a good point. This thread should not be about confrontation. It is much more constructive and useful to keep focused on a dialog open to SK!.

If anything, I am pretty excited to see the positive future Ellie mentions to look for this fall. That is good news. I think the 7/7 is going to be an amazing knife.
 
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It's been 72 hours since blowing past the second hard deadline they committed to me directly on my factory 2nd, and two follow up emails from me, and not a one response from the SK folks on an update. And I can't raise them on the phone to request a refund.

I only tender this update because I previously mentioned that I'd be pursuing a refund if a meaningful update from them wasn't forthcoming, so I feel compelled to be transparent about how things go.

I'm sure I'll get through eventually, but honestly, enough is enough. I'd rather spend my cash with a company that has some basic customer service standards.


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timichango said:
It's been 72 hours since blowing past the second hard deadline they committed to me directly on my factory 2nd, and two follow up emails from me, and not a one response from the SK folks on an update. And I can't raise them on the phone to request a refund.

I only tender this update because I previously mentioned that I'd be pursuing a refund if a meaningful update from them wasn't forthcoming, so I feel compelled to be transparent about how things go.

I'm sure I'll get through eventually, but honestly, enough is enough. I'd rather spend my cash with a company that has some basic customer service standards.


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It amazes me how people buy an item from a small company like SK! And demand express and personal service.
If guy was on the phone non stop talking to people like you, how would the knives be made ?
 
Revolverrodger said:
It amazes me how people buy an item from a small company like SK! And demand express and personal service.
If guy was on the phone non stop talking to people like you, how would the knives be made ?
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And yet somehow I manage to churn out 35+ hours per week of solid design work and code, while still getting back to customer inquiries (most of which require long, considered answers) within 24 hours. And I'm a one-man show.

72 hours of radio silence is *not* express. Particularly after pooping the bed on two hard commitments.

Also, they have people whose JOB is ostensibly is to respond to those emails and answer the phones, so that strawman "who'd make the knives?!" Is silly.

If you want to excuse away crummy customer service based on company size, then that's your prerogative, but I think it's absurd.

It's survive's prerogative to decide whether responsive customer service is important. It's clear their word is not.

It's my prerogative to rescind my patronage of their business.

Exactly *what* is controversial about that to you? This is how business works: if your customers start to think that your businesses practices aren't up to snuff, they stop being your customers. I mean... duh.


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I haven't seen any unreasonable criticism in this thread. I get that they're good people making a great product. However, many good people making a great product don't make it fit exactly the reasons outlined in this thread, poor business practices. As someone with business experience i don't see how this can be sustainable. I could be wrong, and hope I am, but I see trouble ahead if they don't get it together. They have lost alot of (if not all) credibility by repeatedly missing deadlines set and communicated by them.

Before you jump, I have a dog in this fight. Invested in a 4.1 starter in March 2015. Understood what I was getting into and accept it for what it is, a decision made and risk taken by me. I would not do the same now.
 
From the horse's mouth:

"The messaging system through our website isn't the most user friendly, and sometimes the site misplaces messages. To get a faster response from SURVIVE! please email us at info@surviveknives.com."

Sounds like horse by-products to me, but worth a try, I suppose, for anyone else who's unable to get through via the SK! website's messaging system.

Also: "All of the September 12th orders are scheduled to ship out Monday."

I guess we'll see, won't we?
 
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