Concerns About Survive! Business and Misleading Lead Time Estimates

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timichango said:
^^ Is it stated?
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Not that I've seen. The Negation Delegation is fond of pontificating in pursuit of convincing everyone, including themselves, that Survive ! Knives owes them what they've convinced themselves they owe them what they've said they owe them. Right?
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Not that I've seen. The Negation Delegation is fond of pontificating in pursuit of convincing everyone, including themselves, that Survive ! Knives owes them what they've convinced themselves they owe them what they've said they owe them. Right?
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Yeah. I looked at the refunds (including my own) as an appreciated courtesy, given all of the delays and setbacks. Particularly on the non-fixed timeline knives. It's less clear on the knives with hard timelines, which are late, however.

That said, if the refunds weren't forthcoming, there'd be a lot more pitchforks. So probably needed.

It's all a bit messy really.
 
Per the FTC:

If you can't ship when promised, you must notify the customer of the delay and the right to cancel. For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreement to the delay. For longer or indefinite delays, and second and subsequent delays, you must get the customer's consent. If you don't, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked.


Additionally, most states require a return/refund be conspicuously posted. It does not mean you are required to accept returns or refunds, but you are required to post your policy regarding them. If you want to defend dishonest business practices simply because you like their product that is certainly your prerogative.
 
Skystorm said:
If you want to defend dishonest business practices simply because you like their product that is certainly your prerogative.
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I'm not. I've been fairly vocal about the missed deadlines on the monday sales being un-kosher. I just questioned whether they had a stated refund policy, since I haven't seen one.
 
Not sure what is considered appropriate time for a refund. What has been the timerame in the past?
 
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Esav Benyamin said:
Not that I've seen. The Negation Delegation is fond of pontificating in pursuit of convincing everyone, including themselves, that Survive ! Knives owes them what they've convinced themselves they owe them what they've said they owe them. Right?
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Are you referring to refunds or delivery? If refunds, are you referring to refund promptness, or eligibility for a refund?
Who is convincing themselves of what entitlement exactly?

In the absence of a stated delivery date (indefinite is considered absence), The FTC imposes a "30 day max to deliver rule" and requires subsequent permission and ongoing permission to extend past 30 days of non delivery. But more important, in EACH of those delays at any time, the customer IS in fact entitled to a prompt and full refund. That is the law, not conjecture.

if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order immediately and obtain a full and prompt refund;
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https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/bus...s-guide-ftcs-mail-internet-or-telephone-order

As far as refunds go for undelivered orders, there is no ambiguity or self convinced entitlement, there is only the law.. and it is very clear and specific on the matter.
 
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timichango said:
I'm not. I've been fairly vocal about the missed deadlines on the monday sales being un-kosher. I just questioned whether they had a stated refund policy, since I haven't seen one.
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See my post above.. If they don't have one, it defaults to the FTC law. And if they had one, it would have to be COMPLIANT with the FTC law. The FTC is VERY clear on the subject specifically regarding Refunds on a Undelivered orders. Which is exactly what we are talking about. There is no state law in Oregon mandating refunds, but there certainly is FTC federal law mandating and enforcing guidelines on refunds on undelivered completed orders. Remember, we are talking about undelivered completed orders, that is a lot different then refunds/returns on already received orders which is normally is left to state law. The FTC law is very clear on that. I think we (all) should make sure we are up to speed on this as the is no need or room for debate. There is no need to create our own "entitlements' The LAW outlines our entitlements very direct and specific. I should also point out the FTC very actively enforces the law regarding refunds...
See just a partial list..
https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/cases-proceedings/refunds

My point is, this is not some joke, or customers being whiny, or self contrived "entitlements". This is flat out the law and is enforced by the law.
 
Yeah, I get it. I'm not arguing with you - I've read the FTC stuff the last half-dozen times it's been posted, by various people.
 
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LOL I would have picked judge Dredd but like that one too.

BTW, on SK's behalf, I have no idea of what the law considers "prompt"... so wouldn't want to freak out too early on..
 
Anyone else see this? Some interesting info in the comments on Instagram. I'm curios to see what they have planned.
surviveknives@wcleatherworks A lot of steel indeed. You should see both shelves on the table. About 1,500 blades between the GSO-7/7 and the GSO-4.1.
derpyanSeems like the 10's are not gonna be done anytime soon mannnn
outdoorandgearLike it and I am one of those who won't be bored👍🏼👌🏼👏🏼
badixon48Can't wait for my 12!
surviveknives@derpyan We're working on some plans to get those later models moving along a bit more quickly. Too early to share details but just know we're working on it.
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Also, I wonder if the 1500 blades between the 7/7 and 4.1 are all of them or just a portion.
 
timichango said:
Yeah. I looked at the refunds (including my own) as an appreciated courtesy, given all of the delays and setbacks. Particularly on the non-fixed timeline knives. It's less clear on the knives with hard timelines, which are late, however.

That said, if the refunds weren't forthcoming, there'd be a lot more pitchforks. So probably needed.

It's all a bit messy really.
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My order was promised in "a couple of months" it is now coming up on four months. But, even if there wasn't a stated timeline, I am pretty sure they still have to give you a refund if you ask when a product has not been delivered.

I am giving them the benefit of the doubt here and have been patiently waiting for my refund but, I am loosing my patience as they miss yet another deadline(the "few days" I was told). I will only wait so long before I have to put in a Paypal claim and file a complaint with the FTC. I hope it doesnt come to that. The question is, how long is long enough to wait?
 
mlmcasual said:
BTW, on SK's behalf, I have no idea of what the law considers "prompt"... so wouldn't want to freak out too early on..
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Unless I'm misinterpreting your posts, this seems to contradict yourself. Haven't you been freaking out for months about your refunds and legal action?

As for the more severe legal claims from others I'm interested to know if they are 100% proven or not. I'm not challenging anyone's honesty, but I really am curious. I know nobody from SURVIVE! has posted in this thread, but from instagram posts like what Angry Hippie shared I really hope SURVIVE! is working out of the hole they're in without any outside setbacks. We haven't seen any huge changes yet this month, but I'd like to think everything they're doing now is moving them in the right direction.
 
Tachead7075 said:
My order was promised in "a couple of months" it is now coming up on four months. But, even if there wasn't a stated timeline, I am pretty sure they still have to give you a refund if you ask when a product has not been delivered.

I am giving them the benefit of the doubt here and have been patiently waiting for my refund but, I am loosing my patience as they miss yet another deadline(the "few days" I was told). I will only wait so long before I have to put in a Paypal claim and file a complaint with the FTC. I hope it doesnt come to that. The question is, how long is long enough to wait?
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I really want this month to be the start of no more missing deadlines. I know a little while back the refunds were handled much quicker, so I hope they can make the current refunds move along. That would make one less complaint against the company.
 
Silver Needle said:
I really want this month to be the start of no more missing deadlines. I know a little while back the refunds were handled much quicker, so I hope they can make the current refunds move along. That would make one less complaint against the company.
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I have been hoping that they are working on turning things around too. These refund delays are not giving me a lot of faith though. I have to say their actions lately have really let me down as a customer and have made me reconsider whether I want to support them as a company any longer. That is the reason I cancelled my order unfortunately. I could have waited longer but, I dont like how they have been running shop and treating customers lately. And, I also could no longer gamble my hard earned money on their imo flawed business model quite frankly. If they dont change the way they are doing things soon I really worry about the longevity of their company. The fact that they are not posting in this thread is disconcerting to me as well. I think Ellie chiming in here would go a long way to alleviate some tensions and help build/rebuild customer relations.
 
I hate seeing customers walk away, but I get where you're coming from. Like I said I hope your refund and those of others get taken care of quickly.
 
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