COUNTERFEITS removed from "Persian" edc blades?

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I don't think that it's right to call people like me parasites because we don't have enough money to buy the real thing. We love knives too and want to at least feel how they are in hand. Can we not at least pretend that we have a CRK or Benchmade?

Either way there is no place on the Internet from what I've found that we can at least talk about Sanrenmu & co without being bullied by self-righteous "law-abiding" uppity knife owners who have more money than we do. It gets tiresome.

I'll continue talking about them where I can unless the day comes where discussion of them are banned by the mods.

If you don't like it, fine. Say so. But don't talk down to us, don't call us beggars, parasites, legitimizing thieves. Can you not see how insulting that is? We don't have $400 to spend on a damn Sebenza.
 
nick21 said:
I don't think that it's right to call people like me parasites because we don't have enough money to buy the real thing. We love knives too and want to at least feel how they are in hand. Can we not at least pretend that we have a CRK or Benchmade?

If you don't like it, fine. Say so. But don't talk down to us, don't call us beggars, parasites, legitimizing thieves. Can you not see how insulting that is? We don't have $400 to spend on a damn Sebenza.
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Nick,
After reading your comment, yes, I can see how insulting my comment came across. I definitely could've worded my comment, to be a little more diplomatic; so for that, I sincerely apologize.
I guess this is how I feel, when I go on the custom folder sales forum, & look at some of the sticker shock prices I see in there (knives I can't afford).
I didn't mean to offend you, Nick, & I will go back & edit my comment. Thank you for giving me your perspective.
John

Now if I could only get, ncrockclimb, to also edit out this part of my comment, that he quoted. ;)
 
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craytab said:
In the Spyderco Subforum there is a huge thread dedicated to fakes. Sal participates in it regularly there.
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Spyderco has been a long time victim of counterfeiting, and that thread I started was after discussing with Sal the need to educate people here on what to look for. As you know (others might not), it is not designed to say, "here is my Para 2 that only cost me a fraction of what the real thing does." I wanted to clear that up before anyone tries to use that as an example of legitimizing.

Spark has given his opinion on knock offs and counterfeit items, and he is NOT in favor of them.

To the people that say, "I cannot afford a real Sebenza/Strider/Hinderer", I really don't know what to tell you. You might just be trying to buy things that are too far above your means. Not everyone on the forums is so materialistic as that. Buy what you can afford, save your money, and take care of your personal responsibilities first and foremost. If you know the general feeling of the forums regarding counterfeit items as well as the rules, don't flaunt the fakes. Do some research on the damage that counterfeiting really does, it's hardly a victimless industry.
http://counterfeiting.unicri.it/docs/Why You Should Care about counterfeiting. ACG. UK.pdf
http://www.clearpointcreditcounselingsolutions.org/four-reasons-not-to-buy-counterfeit-goods/
 
Thank you Kelama and ncrockclimb for understanding. :)

I feel that I understand your viewpoints better after this thread.

RevDevil, I don't purchase knives that claim to be something that they are not. Like I may purchase a Sanrenmu 710, but I won't buy a "Spyderco Paramilitary 2" that's not an actual Paramilitary 2.

I feel that a distinction should be made between Sanrenmu, Ganzo, Enlan and anonymous companies that make knives that actually claim to be the product that they're imitating...in my opinion anyway
 
RevDevil said:
Spyderco has been a long time victim of counterfeiting, and that thread I started was after discussing with Sal the need to educate people here on what to look for. As you know (others might not), it is not designed to say, "here is my Para 2 that only cost me a fraction of what the real thing does." I wanted to clear that up before anyone tries to use that as an example of legitimizing.

Spark has given his opinion on knock offs and counterfeit items, and he is NOT in favor of them.

To the people that say, "I cannot afford a real Sebenza/Strider/Hinderer", I really don't know what to tell you. You might just be trying to buy things that are too far above your means. Not everyone on the forums is so materialistic as that. Buy what you can afford, save your money, and take care of your personal responsibilities first and foremost. If you know the general feeling of the forums regarding counterfeit items as well as the rules, don't flaunt the fakes. Do some research on the damage that counterfeiting really does, it's hardly a victimless industry.
http://counterfeiting.unicri.it/docs/Why You Should Care about counterfeiting. ACG. UK.pdf
http://www.clearpointcreditcounselingsolutions.org/four-reasons-not-to-buy-counterfeit-goods/
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Well put Rev.

There are still questions though. What should we do when people come on here and recommend a knock off? What should we do when people sing the praises of a counterfeit? What are Spark's thoughts on Ganzo or other companies using the Axis lock. We know Benchmade isn't happy about it. While the whole knife may not be a knock off, that aspect of it certainly is.

If you will notice in the other thread my original response was "It is not an homage. It illegally uses a patented locking mechanism called the Axis lock." Then the pro-counterfeit crowed jumped in and started taking shots. Did I say some things that were out of line? Sure. But it is my belief, and confirmed by you and Spark, that this place should have nothing to do with promoting knock offs.

We need some specific guidelines to handle this sort of stuff. The only way to keep it civil is probably to report the post but that is going to make more work for you guys. Further this doesn't always work. As example, it is my belief that the photos of the Ganzo should be removed from the other thread. There is still one there. It is still promoting a knock off knife, even after all this.
 
ncrockclimb said:
Done. Good on you and nick21 for keeping it civil.
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Thank you, rock climber!

RevDevil said:
Spyderco has been a long time victim of counterfeiting, and that thread I started was after discussing with Sal the need to educate people here on what to look for. As you know (others might not), it is not designed to say, "here is my Para 2 that only cost me a fraction of what the real thing does." I wanted to clear that up before anyone tries to use that as an example of legitimizing.

Spark has given his opinion on knock offs and counterfeit items, and he is NOT in favor of them.

To the people that say, "I cannot afford a real Sebenza/Strider/Hinderer", I really don't know what to tell you. You might just be trying to buy things that are too far above your means. Not everyone on the forums is so materialistic as that. Buy what you can afford, save your money, and take care of your personal responsibilities first and foremost. If you know the general feeling of the forums regarding counterfeit items as well as the rules, don't flaunt the fakes. Do some research on the damage that counterfeiting really does, it's hardly a victimless industry.
http://counterfeiting.unicri.it/docs/Why You Should Care about counterfeiting. ACG. UK.pdf
http://www.clearpointcreditcounselingsolutions.org/four-reasons-not-to-buy-counterfeit-goods/
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this.
 
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nick21 said:
I don't think that it's right to call people like me parasites because we don't have enough money to buy the real thing. We love knives too and want to at least feel how they are in hand. Can we not at least pretend that we have a CRK or Benchmade?

Either way there is no place on the Internet from what I've found that we can at least talk about Sanrenmu & co without being bullied by self-righteous "law-abiding" uppity knife owners who have more money than we do. It gets tiresome.

I'll continue talking about them where I can unless the day comes where discussion of them are banned by the mods.

If you don't like it, fine. Say so. But don't talk down to us, don't call us beggars, parasites, legitimizing thieves. Can you not see how insulting that is? We don't have $400 to spend on a damn Sebenza.
Click to expand...

So since you can't afford something you are going to go out and by an illegal counterfeit of that item? How does this seem right? How is it not legitimizing thieves?

You can keep talking about this but so can I. No need to be insulted. Just stop talking about how you purchase knock offs.
 
From the Exchange Rules:
Fakes/Homages-
As fakes and homage items are a legal gray area and obviously hurt the hobby, no fake or homage items may be sold on the Exchange. Members may not knowingly sell unlicensed knockoffs or counterfeit versions of knives (or any other goods) based upon the designs of their legitimate owner, manufacturer or custom maker. Additionally, members may not sell any knife or item known or suspected to be other than as described in terms of its lineage and authenticity.
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Not sure what Spark thinks of those items specifically and independently of one another, I'd bet he is less than thrilled about them. The quoted statement above sums it up and can be applied to the general discussion areas as well.
 
nick21 said:
Thank you Kelama and ncrockclimb for understanding. :)

I feel that I understand your viewpoints better after this thread.

RevDevil, I don't purchase knives that claim to be something that they are not. Like I may purchase a Sanrenmu 710, but I won't buy a "Spyderco Paramilitary 2" that's not an actual Paramilitary 2.

I feel that a distinction should be made between Sanrenmu, Ganzo, Enlan and anonymous companies that make knives that actually claim to be the product that they're imitating...in my opinion anyway
Click to expand...

All of these companies either currently or in the past have used the Axis lock without Benchmade's permission. You recommended a Ganzo knife with a knock off axis lock. I and others calmly called you on it but you could not let it go. Sorry you got your feelings hurt but it is the truth. You are supporting a counterfeit industry that hurts this hobby, this forum, and the legit knife companies the rest of us give our hard earned money to.

Go look at Rev's comments on this situation. What he said is also backed up by the owner of the website.
 
RevDevil said:
From the Exchange Rules:


Not sure what Spark thinks of those items specifically and independently of one another, I'd bet he is less than thrilled about them. The quoted statement above sums it up and can be applied to the general discussion areas as well.
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Okay, sorry to keep pushing this point but what exactly does this mean? What should we do when we encounter this?
 
nick21 said:
I don't think that it's right to call people like me parasites because we don't have enough money to buy the real thing. We love knives too and want to at least feel how they are in hand. Can we not at least pretend that we have a CRK or Benchmade?

Either way there is no place on the Internet from what I've found that we can at least talk about Sanrenmu & co without being bullied by self-righteous "law-abiding" uppity knife owners who have more money than we do. It gets tiresome.

I'll continue talking about them where I can unless the day comes where discussion of them are banned by the mods.

If you don't like it, fine. Say so. But don't talk down to us, don't call us beggars, parasites, legitimizing thieves. Can you not see how insulting that is? We don't have $400 to spend on a damn Sebenza.
Click to expand...

You talk like everybody else on this forum owns a sebenza, and because you can't afford it you feel the need to resort to buying cheap knock-offs of it just to be relevant. Well, not everybody owns a Sebenza, it's not a knife that everybody can afford. Benchmade is a little more approachable, but again it's not for everybody.

Your logic is poor, just because you don't have the money to buy a real Sebenza or Benchmade is no excuse to give your money to the knock-off makers, because that's exactly what those makers are hoping. They are there for those who can't afford the real thing but still want it, and whether or not you choose to believe it, you are in fact stealing sales from the real makers and giving money to the makers who don't deserve it. People like you are who keep those conterfeiters and knock-off makers in business, I don't think it should be an accepted practice to talk about stealing sales away from honest knifemakers just because you don't have the money to buy a really expensive knife.

the most expensive knife I use is a Benchmade Rift, I can't afford a Sebenza but I certainly wouldn't want to buy a knock-off just to try it out, as not only am I not getting the real experience (which is why they are so expensive) but I'd be actively supporting the knock-off makers and their awful ways. No thanks.
 
KingMC said:
You talk like everybody else on this forum owns a sebenza, and because you can't afford it you feel the need to resort to buying cheap knock-offs of it just to be relevant. Well, not everybody owns a Sebenza, it's not a knife that everybody can afford. Benchmade is a little more approachable, but again it's not for everybody.
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Very true. It took me a long time to save up the money for my crk, which i bought used off the exchange. I wanted to try one for a long time. What I didn't do was go buy a fake and legitimize supporting counterfeiters because I couldn't save up the money. Do you know what I did? I saved up the money little by little over a period of time until I could offord one. Then, I patiently wait for a good deal on one I wanted to come up on the exchange.
 
Kelama you're not on my ignore list. I just don't have a membership so I can't use the PM system as far as I know. Thanks for the offer but I'm fine.

Anyway the more I have this discussion the more I realize that I'm in the wrong. That said I'm still decidedly neutral on the issue...they're sort of like training wheels for the real deal in my eyes. I understand that purchasing them is not a good thing to do though.

Craytab I was less offended by you calling me on it and more offended by the way you were talking down to me and Gadfly. Surely you understand that respect is important for a discussion?
 
So many windmills . . . so little time . . .

The problem with counterfeiting is that a strong case can be made on both sides of the argument. Clearly, buying from thieves is not all right and I doubt anyone would try to make the case that it's morally justifiable to do so. But just as clearly, telling someone that they have to deprive themselves of the finer things in life because they can't afford them and may never be able to afford them doesn't work. If it did, counterfeiting wouldn't have grown to become a $500B global industry.

Trying to fight human nature is a losing proposition.

Bleat on, brothers . . . :)
 
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craytab said:
All of these companies either currently or in the past have used the Axis lock without Benchmade's permission. You recommended a Ganzo knife with a knock off axis lock. I and others calmly called you on it but you could not let it go. Sorry you got your feelings hurt but it is the truth. You are supporting a counterfeit industry that hurts this hobby, this forum, and the legit knife companies the rest of us give our hard earned money to.

Go look at Rev's comments on this situation. What he said is also backed up by the owner of the website.
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That is a good question for Spark. The rules listed are applied site wide.
 
craytab said:
Okay, sorry to keep pushing this point but what exactly does this mean? What should we do when we encounter this?
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RevDevil said:
That is a good question for Spark. The rules listed are applied site wide.
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Okay, I think you mean my above quote possibly in combo with what you quoted. Again, I want to be very clear on this as to avoid going down a nasty path again. How do we go about asking spark? Tech support?
 
It seems somewhat silly to ban discussion of them entirely...of course that is obviously not my decision to make though
 
nick21 said:
It seems somewhat silly to ban discussion of them entirely...of course that is obviously not my decision to make though
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If they can't be discussed honestly and the owner is against it then it should not be permitted. That said, I am not against banning the discussion if people can do it honestly and with logic.

What shouldn't be done here for sure is recommendation, promotion, or legitimization.
 
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