Cpm-189?

[Bill86]

Yep. In their price range. They also tend to outperform a lot of more expensive knives out of the box. Hell, they outperform a lot of customs I've had. Note that they both produce knives from the $25 to $250 dollar range so it's good to keep apples to apples.

How much experience do you have with Spyderco and Kershaw?

I have pretty much given up on Benchmade due to build quality issues. I'm down to about 15 or so now.

The only Microtechs I really like are the S90V Socom Elite and a few autos. We all know about what happens when you have warranty issues, right?

Emersons? Yep, They're ok. Not my thing and I've sold the last of them. I don't put them above similarly priced Spydercos or Kershaws/ZT's though.

Al Mar is always good quality. Certainly well made, but not better than anybody else in the price range.

I'd put Buck above some of these companies in some respects, keeping apples to apples where possible.

Still, what works for me obviously doesn't work for you. You aren't impressed with ZDP. I am. If you think high hardness is all ZDP has going for it I question if you had a real ZDP knife. Sure, It's not the most corrosion resistant stainless but that means less than nothing to me. I actually prefer carbon/alloy steels and take care of them so I have no rust or corrosion troubles whatsoever with my knives.

You on the other hand rust out a stainless steel knife and complain about it. I'd be to embarrassed to admit doing something so foolish and amateurish unless it specifically was a test of that particular steel that caused such a result.

Yeah, We're different consumers with different needs and likes. To me, performance is everything. Corrosion resistance is not an issue. Toughness? Rarely a problem as I see every job as having the correct tool, and technique.

I've got 40 years of collecting and use of knives. I've sold knives, I've made a few, had some made for me by some of the better makers out there and have a working knowledge of just about every cutlery steel made into a knife in the last few decades.

Yep, I know what quality is. I don't only buy one brand and I'm pretty current on what's in production and by whom.

You think and buy whatever the heck you like. I'll do the same. I always keep an open mind, and try to learn something every day but I don't see anything you have to teach me currently.

Regards Joe/raleigh

Well honestly I bought one of each, of course I'm only 23 years old....so my budget is somewhat limited....kind of. However the spyderco I bought was a ZDP-189 endura. So that should eliminate many questions...the endura isn't the cheapest model and ZDP-189 is the steel in question.

I've NEVER had rust on ANY of my knives but yes I rusted out a ZDP-189 knife. So yea it left a bad taste in my mouth. I didn't "test it" just did with it what I've done with every other knife I've owned. It got no "special treatment"....however it failed where EVERY other knife I've had succeeded.

Kershaw just isn't for me. Small knives and short blade lengths. Not to mention when I bought it everyone said "GET THE BLUR" yeah I got the Blur the grip on it sucked tore up my hands and pants...no thanks. It's very uncomfortable.

I don't see how you've said S30v is an untested steel. I've been collecting knives for 6-7 years now seriously and it's always been around....somehow somewhere it must've earned that. ZDP-189 is new....maybe 2-3 years old. I remember when it came out....I thought the same thing as everyone else...WOW A NEW STEEL 65 HRC WOW....so I tried it. Wasn't what it was cracked up to be, but again that is just my experience. At the time I was probably 20 years old, working at lowes hardware store...suck ass job I know but hey I just moved to TN at the time and needed ANY job while I was in school. So I used it to cut plastic banding, cardboard and tape...the usual. It was amazingly sharp and held an edge incredibly well. After a while though it started rusting, I don't know why. It continued to rust over the next few months and after that it was so ugly and crappy I refused to use it. I then tossed it into a trash can and bought a Benchmade.

I'm not arguing I'm not hating just stating my opinion and backing it up with MY experience. While it may not be yours, I figure hell there's two sides to every coin.

 

[Bill86]

yep, 20CV too. I was never able to get one of those though. I had to get that in a SOG first.



So innovation, giving people what they ask for, and good marketing are signs of poor products now? I'm confused on that kind of thinking.

Not poor products. You know what I'm trying to say. If something is new and shiny someones going to try to be " the first one to use the next best thing".

Kind of an early bird gets the worm sort of thing.

 

[wongKI]

ZDP does rust. Helluva lot of carbon (3 per cent) so it's been said to be more rust prone than say VG10. There's a really long Spydie Stretch review in the reviews section which comments on that (with testing) and I've heard it mentioned elsewhere too.

Honestly speaking you should have given ZDP a bit more of a chance. Metal polish takes off the rust just fine, and you've already commented on ZDP189's strengths which you experienced for yourself. That said, if you don't like it, you don't like it. I had only limited time with it before my knife got stolen, not long enough to comment on it. I did enjoy the high level of sharpness-transcending S30V, especially with a reprofiled edge- that I got from it. I'd not hesitate to swap a S30V blade for a ZDP if I got the chance. (The reason why, however, has as much to do with S30V as ZDP)

Hope your BM's been serving you well these couple of years. What's the model?

 

[Bill86]

ZDP does rust. Helluva lot of carbon (3 per cent) so it's been said to be more rust prone than say VG10. There's a really long Spydie Stretch review in the reviews section which comments on that (with testing) and I've heard it mentioned elsewhere too.

Honestly speaking you should have given ZDP a bit more of a chance. Metal polish takes off the rust just fine, and you've already commented on ZDP189's strengths which you experienced for yourself. That said, if you don't like it, you don't like it. I had only limited time with it before my knife got stolen, not long enough to comment on it. I did enjoy the high level of sharpness-transcending S30V, especially with a reprofiled edge- that I got from it. I'd not hesitate to swap a S30V blade for a ZDP if I got the chance. (The reason why, however, has as much to do with S30V as ZDP)

Hope your BM's been serving you well these couple of years. What's the model?

The original I purchased was a 913, it had an accident...I handed it to my brother he opened some muriatic acid with it. It got a slight acid dip so I tossed it to benchmade for $30 my horrible blade was a shiny new 912 (black tactical serrated) and it lasted 2 good years before I have to send it away to get sharpened. I've had several other knives I bought afterwards get sent away to Benchmade and they always shock me with their superior customer service. So now I own a 912, 615, 583. I'll probably get another one next year when they come out with new stuff, assuming they do. I mean here's the thing I've said it before I don't dig the hole with spyderco. Also their styles seem all the same to me. Where as most other companies are FAR more different. Just not my cup of tea that's all. No hate, I'm sure to some people they work great, just not my deal.

 

[Stainz]

Wow - a lot of negativity here - and little ZDP-189 info, which is my reason for reading this thread. I did see some disparaging remarks about Benchmade - and their forum's dislike of unflattering remarks. That just isn't true - I've seen some less than kind remarks there. Admittedly, most folks who bother to find that forum - and register - and post - are Benchmade fans. Here, general knife fans - some who dislike BMs - can post on brand specific or general threads without finding and logging in another forum - much easier to the user. Oddly, they are a lot more friendly there as well. I post there - and include a list of my BMs, too.

I guess I'll continue to wonder about ZDP-189. BM does experiment - Bohler steels (M390, N680, N690, etc.), tool steels (D2 & M4), etc, as well as the great old standby's: 154CM, 440C, and my favorite - S30V. Maybe ZDP-189 one day... maybe a thread with real info on same...

Stainz

 

[pwet]

how did this steel geek thread turned into fanboy vs fanboy thread ?

 

[Jason B.]

I've been collecting knives for 6-7 years now

Exactly, 1095, D2, and some others have been around sense WWII and older, S30V came out in what? the late 90's? S30V is still a baby in the steel world and if you had it from several makers you would also understand it can be very different depending on who does the heat treat. It's still in its "testing" stages and were just getting to the point where everyone has a good feel for it.

Its OK to have a opinion but do some research first to make sure you have your facts and that what happened was not from some other variable. Hate to say it but if it took you two years before you sharpened a knife then you have a lot to learn about knife maintenance.

 

[hardheart]

how did this steel geek thread turned into fanboy vs fanboy thread ?

Because that's about all we have left. We're running out of stuff to talk about, and it is degrading to bickering. Fora are driven by opinion, and it is getting to the point that a negative one is not allowed if it does not adhere to groupthink.

I have gotten bad knives from most of the major names discussed in production knives, and they have all performed business practices I can't stand. Becoming disillusioned with branding has left me with the comfort of enjoying good knives no matter what's on the box.

 

[singularity35]

it is getting to the point that a negative one is not allowed if it does not adhere to groupthink.

Seems to be getting more and more true.

 

[Thomas W]

Because that's about all we have left. We're running out of stuff to talk about, and it is degrading to bickering. Fora are driven by opinion, and it is getting to the point that a negative one is not allowed if it does not adhere to groupthink.

I think it's more these general threads of "this whatever is better than that whatever: that bring forth the bickering. I try to avoid them, and rarely get involved. They do get a bit pointless, and feelers seem to get bruised easily. There can be a post or two that can add value.

I have gotten bad knives from most of the major names discussed in production knives, and they have all performed business practices I can't stand. Becoming disillusioned with branding...

Start a new thread on this subject...that should calm things down, and bring discussion to a level that might be more acceptable in your eyes.

 

[hardheart]

I think it's more these general threads of "this whatever is better than that whatever: that bring forth the bickering. I try to avoid them, and rarely get involved. They do get a bit pointless, and feelers seem to get bruised easily. There can be a post or two that can add value.

Start a new thread on this subject...that should calm things down, and bring discussion to a level that might be more acceptable in your eyes.

I honestly don't know how to strart such a thread without a flamewar kicking off.

I agree on the this > that kicking off the bickering. It's just that a lot of threads go there. Anytime anyone asks for suggestions or favorites, it's an invitation for direct comparison. And then someone will speak a superlative, and off we go. "That's not the best, have you tried...?" Be it brand, steel, lock, handle material, blade shape, etc. I've done it myself, and really regret it. I don't know anywhere near as much as I think I do.

 

[Thomas W]

I honestly don't know how to strart such a thread without a flamewar kicking off.

I was being facetious, and was more focused on your words of disdain for all of our turnoff business practices (of which I have no idea of what you could mean). Sorry I should have been more precise.

Obviously starting a discussion on this topic(s) would bring a quick lockdown and more hurt/angry feelings/words.

Hey it's General, what are you really expecting?

 

[Bill86]

I honestly don't know how to strart such a thread without a flamewar kicking off.

I agree on the this > that kicking off the bickering. It's just that a lot of threads go there. Anytime anyone asks for suggestions or favorites, it's an invitation for direct comparison. And then someone will speak a superlative, and off we go. "That's not the best, have you tried...?" Be it brand, steel, lock, handle material, blade shape, etc. I've done it myself, and really regret it. I don't know anywhere near as much as I think I do.

I didn't consider that to be a flame war....just a conversation on a difference of opinion. I made a simple negative statement towards ZDP-189 and said the companies who use it were just trying to get ahead of the curve because its the "latest and greatest". A pretty simple and IMO 90%+ correct statement. Companies do that sort of thing all the time.....

Anyways I'm sorry you guys feel this turned into a flamewar and this is my last post in this thread. Even though no insults were thrown either way and I thought it was pretty civil.

 

[hardheart]

This is not a flamewar, just commenting on how things have gone in the past. Your statements about Spyderco & Kershaw are a bit abrasive to my eyes, but everyone is entitled to an opinion. I don't find them to be particularly lacking in overall quality, and they offer boutique runs of barely used alloys at a price the steel junkies will pay. I believe their bread & butter is in the more common alloys in the more popular designs anyway.

 

[Thomas W]

I made a simple negative statement towards ZDP-189 and said the companies who use it were just trying to get ahead of the curve because its the "latest and greatest". A pretty simple and IMO 90%+ correct statement. Companies do that sort of thing all the time.....

I think it's more that there are only a few manufacturers that actually care and have the ability to bring out some different blade steels for the knife/steel enthusiasts to enjoy. Spyderco and Kershaw are obviously two that have listened to our faithfuls voices, and have tried to "steel satisfy".

It isn't about the money I assure you, and getting ahead of the curve has little benefit, at least in our world. 90% correct...Sometimes it's that last 10% you need to watch out for Bill86.

Simply put, we're just trying to be industry leaders to those who have interest in new, different, and potentially, dare I say it , better steels? No hidden agenda's on this end.

 

[nozh2002]

I think it's more that there are only a few manufacturers that actually care and have the ability to bring out some different blade steels for the knife/steel enthusiasts to enjoy. Spyderco and Kershaw are obviously two that have listened to our faithfuls voices, and have tried to "steel satisfy".

It isn't about the money I assure you, and getting ahead of the curve has little benefit, at least in our world. 90% correct...Sometimes it's that last 10% you need to watch out for Bill86.

Simply put, we're just trying to be industry leaders to those who have interest in new, different, and potentially, dare I say it , better steels? No hidden agenda's on this end.

Do you know what new Crucible going to offer - CPM S35VN... Anything else? Are you going to use any new Crucible steels?

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Thomas W]

Do you know what new Crucible going to offer - CPM S35VN... Anything else? Are you going to use any new Crucible steels?

Thanks, Vassili.

Vassili

We'll continue to use CPM-S30V, CPM-D2, 154-CM, and CPM-154.

Have some CPM-110V on the way, and will probably get into CPM-S35VN soon. Don't know of any other new steels in they have in the works.

 

[nsm]

We are rolling some CPM S125-V, 15-V and S90-V for our knife stock at Niagara Specialty. They will finish at .093, .125 and .156. We will process small lots and see how the demand is before we stock more. We have plenty of CPM S35-VN and CPM D-2 on the shelf as well as the rest of the commonly used Crucible CPM grades.

Crucible has an agreement with ATI to use their lab (The old Crucible R&D Lab in Pittsburgh) to develop new grades. I know they are looking for feedback on what customers want so they can start working on something by the end of 2010 or early 2011.

How about a more wear resistant S35-VN? Let me know and I will pass it on.

Bob

 

[thombrogan]

How about a more wear resistant S35-VN? Let me know and I will pass it on.

A more wear-resistant S5 with no decrease in shock resistance would be nice.

No idea why that was my wish of wishes this morning and apologize for typing it.

 

[pwet]

How about a more wear resistant S35-VN? Let me know and I will pass it on.

Bob

if i understand correctly vassili's point he wanted a steel that could sacrifice a bit of wear resistance for high hardness. crucible already offers a lot of ultra wear resistant steels with a lot of vanadium and strong carbide formers.
he was looking for something else than you already offer, and in the idea i kinda agree. the cool thing about zdp and cowry is that they don't really behave like uber wear resistant steels as far as sharpening and extreme sharpness are concerned. a hattori cowry X kitchen knife can take an edge that is pretty close to a simple carbon steel quite easily and hold this very fine edge way longer than any stainless crucible steel i've tested (s30v cpm440v and s125v).

then that's just my experience and i clearly can be wrong/biased ...