CR Project Got Pwnd

[Esav Benyamin]

Even on the video it clearly showed ...

The video has NO credibility.

I do understand you want a harder edge. That's a legitimate request. It may not work for the mix of capabilities Chris Reeve is looking for, but I tend to like a hard edge myself because I use knives in more of a finesse mode than for pounding. For example, my Sable III gets used for food prep and wood carving. It is, after all, a kind of CRK puukko. But Chris's military-oriented knives generally go to a different clientele.

 

[Artilary6]

So the ease of sharpening is more important to a military guy in the field than edge retention, I can see that. Its a shame that consequently that may be limiting the knife's toughness. Maybe S30V is a bad choice when looking for these two qualities in a blade. It looks like the choice of steel is the culprit perhaps. It doesn't seem to suit all of the requirements as well as something else could, like D2 perhaps like the Ka-bar D2 extreme. Ka-bar should know a thing or two about military knives right?

 

[Justabuyer]

First of all, I begin from the understanding that Noss's test is bogus. Meaningless.

Esav just making sure before we go on that you do understand the difference between your opinion and a fact right?

Clearly there is meaning in the tests, at least to Noss and a lot of others. Just because something does not serve your preconceived notions does not make it valueless.


I guess your not able to answer the question about what makes the project one a good knife. I am sure something about it makes it stand out.

 

[Artilary6]

For example, my Sable III...(quoting ESAV)

A laminated GB would be awesome. A nice, thin layer of edgeholding steel in the center with something gummy and tough on the outsides. CRK may consider buying thin slabs of INFI to stick in the middle of their blades.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Esav just making sure before we go on that you do understand the difference between your opinion and a fact right?

I guess your not able to answer the question about what makes the project one a good knife. I am sure something about it makes it stand out.

I'm well aware of the difference between opinion and fact. I'm also aware of the difference between cartoons and literature. Noss's tests are not the technical equivalent of literature.

I can certainly go through lists of characteristics of what makes knives good. I refered you to someone else who already did that. I do not have a Project I to evaluate for you specifically.

You guess I'm not able to answer the question? Are we talking about debating tactics here? Your credibility ain't doing too well at this point, although Artilary6's seems to be rising.

 

[tsiloics]

Kinda cracks me up how a wannbe carpenter can take two forms of attaching "2 bys", that being an air nailer and hammer and nails, along with his trusty Busse (I get it tsiloics, you like Busse), but won't learn to measure or take a 1/4 pound hand saw to the roof, is justification for beating a 22 oz. framing hammer (likely with the cool checkerboard in the hammer face) into the knife he takes to the roof. Why would you treat a tool like that? Or does anyone remember Cliffs carpenter brother?

Sorry. I actually like both makes very much. Carry one or the other almost every day. Should probably just learn to stay out of these things.

Out of honest curiosity, what's the problem with the term "2x"? That's how I've always referred to 2" nominal lumber in general.

Definitely not claiming to be anything more than a shade-tree carpenter. Also definitely not trying to throw fuel on the fire.

Sorry again.

 

[Justabuyer]

I'm well aware of the difference between opinion and fact. I'm also aware of the difference between cartoons and literature. Noss's tests are not the technical equivalent of literature.

I can certainly go through lists of characteristics of what makes knives good. I refered you to someone else who already did that. I do not have a Project I to evaluate for you specifically.

You guess I'm not able to answer the question? Are we talking about debating tactics here? Your credibility ain't doing too well at this point, although Artilary6's seems to be rising.

With that I bow out. You are hell bent about making this about me and not about the knives. You refuse to share with us what you think is so great about these knives what makes them stand out as tough knives perfect for chopping and digging. ( CRK Ad copy) The person you referred me to did not directly answer my question. Why should anyone buy these knives?

Here let me help you. I think they are fine looking knives. Classy sheaths come with them. In the Case of the GB they maybe tied to the Military through proud tradition. They come sharp and ready to work. The company by all accounts is run by great people and they stand behind the knives.
Sound fair?

Instead you have transitioned to veiled threats of becoming lumped in with Artillery6 and suffering the ridicule of forum elitists. Next will be a accusation trolling.

You win. The videos of the knives breaking more easily than almost any other knives (twice) is meaningless with out being vetted by the slide rule pocket protector crowd. This video evidence is meaningless as opposed to the anecdotal stories told by people that agree with you which are authoritative because..... ? Don't worry you don't have to answer that either.

/unsubscribe

 

[Brian Jones]

I am sure something about it makes it stand out.

Well, the fact that, in real world conditions, it was a great tool to help us meet our survival needs, then yes. It stands out bigtime.

Noss's tests do not help me or anyone evaluate the real world uses and capabilities of any knife. If I need to survive in a warehouse full of concrete, I'll be sure to look his tests up. But then again, his hand testing leaves so many variables that there are no absolute results to anything he posts. Of course, I love watching the tests, and I don't think Noss is purposely trying to bias anything. He just has no idea what he's really doing, that's all. And, I think he's geting a bit addicted to all the attention he receives.

 

[Ramm9]

I don't mind someone showing me what it takes to destroy a knife as long as it's their knife. I might learn something, same as finding out a jeep flips on a hard turn at a relatively low speed.

As opposed to our bounced pain in the a$$ physicist, at least Noss is showing a video allowing the viewer to make up their own mind and not a expecting us to believe he counted out 2000 chops. It's a large order to baton across wood grain while also being a slicer and also being a relatively thin weapon...still, it was disappointing but not a complete surprise to see the failure. I recall there was a discussion as to when and why blades being used with a baton failed in the same way.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I recall there was a discussion as to when and why blades being used with a baton failed in the same way.

a wood or plastic baton will not have the same effect.


hitting a metal knife with a metal baton will affect the tempering, causing vibrations at such a frequency as to cause micro fractures, and ultimately macro fractures. or something like that. ive done this, fortunately my knife did not break. though i hit it only a few times.


1. dont hit a metal knife with a metal hammer or pipe or wrench. unless you want to break it. or unless not doing so will cause you great pain or death.

2. dont rapel from a rope attached to a knife hammered into a rock by a metal hammer or pipe or wrench. unless you want to fall. or repel others from doing same.

3. take noss' tests or experiments or whatever title you like, for what they are. a guy breaking his own knives through a series of beatings. some last a long time, some dont. this may or may not speak to you individually as to what constitutes a quality knife.

 

[jimbo@stn23]

Sorry. I actually like both makes very much. Carry one or the other almost every day. Should probably just learn to stay out of these things.

Out of honest curiosity, what's the problem with the term "2x"? That's how I've always referred to 2" nominal lumber in general.

Definitely not claiming to be anything more than a shade-tree carpenter. Also definitely not trying to throw fuel on the fire.

Sorry again.

In retrospect I owe you an apology tsiloics, my post was in poor taste. :foot: I am not much more than a shadetree carpenter either although I have built my shop, my Dads house and try my hand (and patience) at home reno.

For myself I usually include whether it is a 2*4, 2*6, etc., but that is just semantics. I just let the trimming lumber with a knife and hammer rub me wrong. Again my apologies.

Like you I should learn to stay out of things or just stick to the facts regarding my experience.

 

[Broos]

hitting a metal knife with a metal baton will affect the tempering, causing vibrations at such a frequency as to cause micro fractures, and ultimately macro fractures. or something like that. ive done this, fortunately my knife did not break. though i hit it only a few times.


1. dont hit a metal knife with a metal hammer or pipe or wrench. unless you want to break it. or unless not doing so will cause you great pain or death.

Better yet, don't smash a hardened face hammer against another hardened steel part, or knife. Commonly known in some trades as a dumb thing to do. Doing it is a potentially hazardous demonstration, and there are very few legitimate conclusions you can make if it's randomly done to failure. If you value your knife, get a piece of wood to use as a baton, or at minimum stick something to cushion the shock between the hammer and knife.

(under "hammers")
http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001601-d001700/d001698/d001698.html

http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/as...ccident-involving-a-hardened-steel-hammer.pdf

 

[Artilary6]

After watching the test, in all honesty, I would be afraid to baton using my GB at all now. Yes I value my knife enough to not break it and therefore I will avoid batoning alltogether. I wouldn't be surprised that if a hard knot in the baton hit the knife too many times the knife would eventually break. The hammer seems like an accelerated rough use test for what might happen after lots of batoning with harder woods. I wouldn't be surprised at all if that thin tip snapped off quickly from batoning heavily with hard wood.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

That you wouldn't be surprised in some indication of how divorced your experiences are from reality. There is no reason for you to hesitate using your perfectly capable knife in normal situations.

 

[GigOne]

Good post... there really is no road you are not willing to travel to divert this thread, and try to make it about the people posting in it and not about the knives failing repeatedly at tasks other knives passed with ease.

Not trying to "divert" anything. A common adage informs us "the squeaky wheel gets the grease." Another common maxim is, “peeling back the onion." I've come up with a better expression, "The squeaky wheel has his / her onion peeled back !" Hell, it doesn't take a destruction test to figure it out and a more accurate view of the squeaker is obtained !

Another example ? Why not. . . . .

OK....I have done way too much complaining and joking around without suggesting any ways to improve the knife (since many of us think there is something wrong with it).
Lose the serrations, increase hardness to 59-60, thicken the tip and DONE. I bet that would toughen it right up and increase its poor edge retention. And I know it has bad edge retention from experience. In all honesty, my GB serves as nothing more than a letter opener and even that causes it to require sharpening soon. Shaving sharpness fades after just a few letters and i'm not kidding. The choice to make it more easily sharpenable in the field VS good edge retention was a mistake IMO.

The initial read of the highlighted area would lead one to the conclusion that the "GB" isn't a worthy blade when it comes to edge retention. But. . . .a closer look at the author's past posts, in the Maintenance, Tinkering, & Embellishment sub-forum, paints a better picture of why "edge retention" sucks. It's called self-induced. Hell, several months ago, he began learning how to sharpen a knife. S30V is one of the hardest knife blades to sharpen, and sharpen well. Let the edge become dull and the inexperienced play hell at getting it back to the factory sharp edge.

On a side note. . . .increasing the RC of S30V will make the edge harder to sharpen.

 

[AfterTFD]

After watching the test, in all honesty, I would be afraid to baton using my GB at all now. Yes I value my knife enough to not break it and therefore I will avoid batoning alltogether.

Don't be afraid to baton with it. Just use a piece of wood to do it instead of a hammer. Batoning correctly is not abuse for a GB and it will not break it.

I wouldn't be surprised that if a hard knot in the baton hit the knife too many times the knife would eventually break.

I would be very surprised (more like shocked) at such an occurrence. If a Chris Reeve knife breaks under responsible use the best thing to do is send it in and explain what happened.

The hammer seems like an accelerated rough use test for what might happen after lots of batoning with harder woods.

I assure you this is not the case. If I understand things correctly that's like saying that driving through town at 120 mph is an "accelerated rough use test" of driving the speed limit to work and back for a few years. It doesn't work that way.

 

[tsiloics]

In retrospect I owe you an apology tsiloics, my post was in poor taste. :foot: I am not much more than a shadetree carpenter either although I have built my shop, my Dads house and try my hand (and patience) at home reno.

For myself I usually include whether it is a 2*4, 2*6, etc., but that is just semantics. I just let the trimming lumber with a knife and hammer rub me wrong. Again my apologies.

Like you I should learn to stay out of things or just stick to the facts regarding my experience.

No big deal.

As an architect, I'm always telling other people how to build things, so it's nice to do a little myself. I also have some interests in non-conventional wood construction (artificial climbing terrain being the main one) so there's an opportunity to mess around, learn a little and build for my own use there. And yes, there's always working on the house.

I was just trying to draw reasonable examples from my actual experience. It just happens that I *have* used conventional field knives in this particular manner, and I *have* used them as slotted and lightly-driven anchors. Not out of a desire to draw attention to myself, put stuff up on the Internet, etc. ... that just happens to be the case. Based on that experience, it seems reasonable (at least to me it does) that some of these uses would come into play in a military/SAR/rescue situation. Again, no big deal, no chest-beating, no wild hypotheticals... just interested in the subject and the discussion.

I look at these "military" knives as very general tools. Ombudsmen, as it were. They are advertised as chopping/digging/prying implements, in addition to their cutting abilities. Of course they are not going to do any one of these things as well as a single-purpose tool.

If you compare a piton, shovel and cold chisel... basically you're looking at three chunks of metal. Each of these is designed for some degree of cutting, and each is designed to be driven into some sort of medium with an impact device. All of these tools are likely made from hardened steel (with a variety of different properties, of course) and all have different cutting geometries. Obviously one can dig with a piton, whack off a limb with a shovel and open a box with a cold steel.

The point here is that there is nothing inherently, magically, intrinsically "abusive" about driving two pieces of metal together as part of a cutting or penetrating task. It's done all the time with tools of roughly similar physical construction to that of a CRK one-piece; notable difference being in the heat treat. So, of course that heat treat is an item of particular interest.

Yes, it is true that any tool merits respect and prudent use practices. It is also true that expendability offers its own form of utility. "Beater" tools are incredibly useful, because they relieve more refined tools of undue burden. Many framers have a beater wood chisel that can be used to cut nails. That's an abusive application, but a $10 Stanley will last for many years and many re-sharpenings if used that way. There you have a piece of tool steel hardened to 58-60RC, being driven through metal, by metal. Nothing resilient in the equation. I've done this many times, and I've certainly never seen a chisel bust in half as a result.

I happen to love knives. Don't ask me why... guessing I don't have to explain myself here. I also happen to work around construction, have a lot of climbing experience, do stuff in the outdoors.... I'm a boy. I play with tools, and I sometimes bang things together.

I don't actually own any of CRK's one-piece knives, but have handled just about all of them. I do own and carry four CRK folders. I love CRK's products. I want to see them succeed. In that light, I think this is a perfectly reasonable and constructive line of conversation. No trolling agenda of any sort on this end, and definitely sorry if any was inferred.

Way O/T, on the "2x" thing; take a phrase like, "provide full-height, shaped 2x blocking with edge nailing". Let's say this is diaphragm blocking between rafters, and there are three different heel heights on the job. I'm just calling for solid blocking with a raked top edge to match the height of the rafter. I don't care what you cut it from, as long as it's solid. Could maybe come out of an 8, maybe you need a 10. Maybe all you have is a 12. If I specifically said, "2x12 blocking", that would imply that it had to come from a 2x12, which would not be correct.

 

[Artilary6]

On a side note. . . .increasing the RC of S30V will make the edge harder to sharpen.

Just an opinion here, but now that I know how to sharpen, i'd much rather have better edge retention and a harder blade than a blade thats soft and easy to sharpen but dulls quickely.

 

[MedOpsPogue]

Well, the fact that, in real world conditions, it was a great tool to help us meet our survival needs, then yes. It stands out bigtime.

Noss's tests do not help me or anyone evaluate the real world uses and capabilities of any knife. If I need to survive in a warehouse full of concrete, I'll be sure to look his tests up. But then again, his hand testing leaves so many variables that there are no absolute results to anything he posts. Of course, I love watching the tests, and I don't think Noss is purposely trying to bias anything. He just has no idea what he's really doing, that's all. And, I think he's geting a bit addicted to all the attention he receives.

Thanks Brian.

You made the same point I was trying to make, only you did it better.

 

[Ramm9]

Just an opinion here, but now that I know how to sharpen, i'd much rather have better edge retention and a harder blade than a blade thats soft and easy to sharpen but dulls quickely.

Of course, as I understand it, the harder blade that will hold that edge is now also a more "brittle" blade that cannot stand heavier use.