CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably

Status
Not open for further replies.
We don't know who designed the knife. CS? Outside contractor? Maker?

CS doesn't make knives and doesn't say who made the knife.

CS sold the knife to be one able to handle "extreme abuse." To me, and (I think) to most of the posters here, that means it should handle batoning --within limits since anything can be broken. The limits in this case include stress-risers at the tang/blade junction.

I can't give any candy back. Never had any. ;)
 
TLM said:
You still don't get it, one of the most "clueless" cases of stubborness I have ever met even on an american forum.

And no I don't mean well at all...
Click to expand...

Man, we must be pretty bad to get a Finn all riled up like this. :D
 
Wow, this thread has gotten a lot bigger. It had stuck in my head too, which is why I returned to look for it.

A survival knife has to be tough. If Cold Steel claims that the Recon Scout is the toughest 7" knife around, it had darn well better be able to baton through a log. The knife has a design flaw in that stress riser and their QC system did not catch what was probably a flaw in the steel itself - that led to the failure.

I wanted to relate what I used my knife for lately, because it reminded me of this. We had to tear out part of a wooden structure, quickly. Available tools were limited. We were able to pry some things with a hammer; when that did not work, because of the angle, I hammered my MPT in and then used that as a pry bar. At one point, to make hole, I pounded the MPT through and then used both batoning (with piece of wood) and sawing. Whether I was batoning or sawing depended on if I was going with the grain or across. At the end of all this the last 1" of the MPT had about a 10 degree bend. I tapped it into some wood, bent it straight, and put it in its sheath.

By the way, when I get home, I am going to ask Mission to modify the knife by removing about 1", leaving it with a thicker tip. It is going to be my designated diving knife, but I am using it here to put it through its paces. I am looking at something like a Busse 1/4" Satin Jack for my permanent tactical, maybe my NO.

I state again: In my mind, nothing is abuse to a survival knife. It should be able to cut, chop, pry, and be pounded though something with a baton.
 
I just wanted to say your avatar and screen name gave me a smile. Where did you get the image of Tor's face by the way? I think I might know the answer.
 
T.J
Man, we must be pretty bad to get a Finn all riled up like this.
Click to expand...

Actually I have been laughing my ass off, I certainly did not intend it to get this far. :D :D

Raker
Don't worry about it. It won't get better either.
Click to expand...

Sigh, I know and I am only worrying about the level of discussion here. Ken Cox has told me not to try sarcasm but I keep forgetting. :D :D

This does actually bring up a problem on BF, we do have the blademakers forum but not quite anything for general knife technical discussion. Too often the statement "density of steel is 7850 kg/m3" is met by "that is all fine but my OPINION is..." or maybe we should invent a "tech emoticon" that tells that facts or opinions based on professional knowledge or practical experience are preferred. The start " I don't know anything but..." is absolutely verboten. :D

I still think that that RS had a large crack right from manufacturing maybe compounded by not quite sufficient tempering. I really would like to know.

TLM
 
I actually expect the representative of Cold Steel to jump and say " Send the knife back to us for a replacement. "

Everybody will most likely forget about it sooner than you thought.

On the other hand, if they say " Batoning a knife constitute to abuse, blame it on yourself! " That would be a PR nightmare for any company at all.
 
akee
,,,,I think we all hope that any of us that ends up with a broken knife can turn things around and get a new one...."free"

If it's a good company, they likely got a bin filled with blades to handle such replacement needs...I know I got a new Leatherman when I really, really , really abused mine in ways never dreamed of by it's designer....
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
I'm not sure what you mean by this post?
Click to expand...

It means that selecting tools is very personal, and it's gonna get personal. And this is about selecting a tool or tools to meet the requirements of personally-selected events/activites (winter camping, desert hiking, urban strolling), or those you've been "volunteered" for (combat, etc.). We each bring our unique views to this. Is it one big knife or a smaller one plus a hatchet. Maybe a machete is better because we're in the tropics. The intent is to get the greatest benefit for the least cost (in dollars, weight, aggrevation, command influence, peer pressure, what-have-you). But, it remains a tool for essentially forseeable events. The real survival tool/knife is what you survive with. It has to be everyday-useful, otherwise it won't be present. Useful for the most mundane, everyday tasks. Currently, from what I read out of SWA, that's a multi-tool or SAK. But not too large, or it gets consigned to the desk, dresser, or LBE. Back in the old, non-desertboot Army, it was the smaller SAK or demo knife in a nylon pouch on everyone's hip. Useful for opening letters, c-ration cans, removing jeep fuel filters, stripping commo wire, adjusting tent stove carbs--and always present. The bigger, mission-purpose knives were on the LBE Those knifes would be of great value in a survival situation, if they were present. But, since they weren't on your person, there was no guarantee of that.

This threat, for my elucidation, has been a discussion of the various trade-offs and risks made when going winter camping. Different tool-sets likely would be considered for camping in the tropics. Or hiking the Sonoran desert. Or urban combat. And how well did the tool perform against the criteria that caused it to be chosen and taken in the first place.
 
DoQa'tah
Looks like to me you were not very honest in getting a replacement for something that you shouldn't have.
I used to think that you were seeking knowledge when asking a lot of questions on the forums. I had hopes that you would eventually get it right and be an asset to the knife making community. I know it is hard to try to pick and choose the right answer from people that you don't know and I will give you a hint, consider your source of information. If you enjoy pushing peoples buttons, so be it. I consider that to be almost the same as trolling. Do you not make knives that will do the all the same things that are needed for the survival, camping, demo, or whatever situation that would call upon a knife to perform the operations involved. Have you not ever had a knife break because of a crack? Would you quit making that style knife if it was the only one that broke? Do not you read and understand? I have never in all the time that I have been on these forums been as dissappointed in the replies of some one until now. I really did think that all you wanted to do was learn how to make "the high performance" knife. So much for that thought.

I guess you did finally push my button.
 
raker
...at that time*,,,I understand that the offical replacement policy of the Leatherman co, is to give you a new one should yours fail , for any reason,,,,

They dont ask,,,we dont tell,,,

So I think you may have to update you thoughts on my being "honest"?






(* this may have changed, but this was what I knew to be the case at that time, and by the way, I hope it is also the replacement policy of the maker of the knife that broke here too,,,,I dont believe that it's important for them to ask "How?", just to replace the broken blade....The "How did it happen?" questions deal with other matters)
 
DaQo'tah Forge said:
Again, all Im saying, (or trying to say that is...)
....is that what you think a knife is made to do, and what I think that same knife can do, might well be totally different things right?

The only point of view that really counts is the with the guy who made the knife....so ask him if he made the knife in question to do what was asked of it,,,,show him the photo,,,

The Most important "matter" is the question: what the knife was designed to do?,,,,

If I made a knife to do -"X",,,,,,and you use my knife to do - "Y" and the knife fails,,,,I would think that you used the blade to do something I never designed it to do,,,

Well before a person runs around pointing out the flaws in a blade when used to do - "Y" , ,,,( read here, hammer-split 8 inch log) that someone should find out that the knife was offically designed to do - "Y"

Chances are that the maker has a design spec sheet that would lay out what can be expected of the blade to do, and what would be concidered a risk to do...


When I look at the photo of the broken blade,,,,I think that useing that type of blade in that manner, is more near the risk side of the things it was designed to do....But thats just my point of view,,,and as I said, our point of view dont count in learning what was to blame for the broken blade,,,

Ask the maker, show him the photo,,,if the maker looks at the same photo of the knife says, "It broke?. it should have not broken doing that!",,,,then thats the answer!...no need for me or you to add to that at all...
Click to expand...

to qoute the cold steel website on what they think of the recon scout -

In almost every respect, the Recon Scout® is simply a 7 1/2 inch Trail Master® Bowie. It offers the same steel, heat treatment, blade thickness, blade shape and handle. Outside of its shorter blade length, the most significant difference is that the Recon Scout comes with a Secure-Ex sheath instead of a leather one.

We believe the Recon Scout® is the strongest, toughest 7 1/2” combat knife in the world. When your consider the price it’s offered at and compare it to the competition, we think you’ll agree it’s the greatest bargain in combat knife history!

Specifications:
Weight: 15 oz.
Blade Thick: 5/16”
Blade Length: 7 1/2”
Handle: 5” Kraton
Overall: 12 1/2”
Steel: Carbon V
Sheath: Secure-Ex Sheath"

"strongest, toughest 7 1/2" combat knife in the world". you stack yourself up against busse combat, swamp rat knife works, ferman knives, strider knives, and chris reeves knives with that statement. each one of those companies puts out knives (all of their knives, including swamp rats 1/8" d2 hunter/skinners) that can take all the abuse you can give them in the woods, including using rocks as hammers.

in saying that it is the stronger knife of the competition, i feel that you should hold yourself to the same standards as the competition (as far as what abuse your knife can take, as the stronger knife should shine through), and busse puts up a strong front in that department (its where i first heard of the idea that a survival knife should never, under any circumstances break on you).


cold steel stated that they beleive it to be the strongest 7 1/2" combat knife in the world. i cant help but think that it was designed to take more abuse then splitting wood.




if you ask lynn thompson what the recon scout is capable of, im sure that he will tell you its capable of damn near anything, and he will point you in the direction of the proof video's. if you asked him wether or not splitting logs with it was abuse, it wouldnt suprise me if he handed your question over to his lawyer who would quickly state that anything outside of cutting is abuse, and hence voids the warranty. i sincerly doubt that asking the maker of the blade what it was designed to do in this case would come away with any kind of benefitial information.





you comments about the south arent really funny (but then i dont find any of the other nationality based "jokes" here all that laughable iether). and for what its worth from a "technical" standpoint, a lot of the southern states of the us have better school testing records then california, where i come from. i went through the cali school system, and it sucked, but i know how to use websters, and i know what elucidation means. what ken cox said about sarcasm was excellent advice. sarcasm in text (and often in person when the topic is in deep discussion) is equivelent to an insult, wich is, in essense, just trolling for a response (wether you meant it to be or not).
 
I apologize for the insinuation that you were dishonest, DaQo'tah.

That would take care of part of my post. I guess that you really, really, really, didn't abuse it more than you should have because it failed. The only problem I have with what you have been posting is going off on the knife breaking because it wasn't supposed to be able to do that task. A 7 1/2" knife with a steep bevel and a 5/16" thick spine that is stock removed (no distill taper) not being able to be batoned through a piece of wood, has to be defective. If you can't make one that will do that, you have a long way to go and a lot more understanding of what Mr. Fowler, Myself, and Others that have tried to help you along in forging a better knife. Do not worry about me wasting my time in answering any more of your questions reguarding knife makeing. You have shown that you are "honest" and that is all.
 
raker...I believe I have been very carefull to never say I knew for a FACT that the knife was designed to do this or that.....

I have kept saying that the only person who has any right to answer that question is the maker....

Now I have my point of view, based on my own gut feelings when I look at the photo, notice how deep it's stuck in the wood, , notice the banged up handle, the Huge guard that must have been sticking up in the way,,,

And noticeing that Im not sure this is a "Camping" knife in the first place!....

It is my point of view that based on what I know of camping, that this knife was NEVER designed to be thought of as a camper....To me it looks like a fighter....the huge guard,,,,the handle,,,,the point,,,,all say, "Fighter" to me,,,not "Log splitter"

But I could be wrong,,,,,If you guys can find anything writen by the maker or get an email from him (or them) that says the broken knife is a camp knife, or a survival knife, or a hunting knife, or whatever....and that it's made to split wood as shown in the photo,,,,,then you got an air-tight case against this knife,,,,

But so far?.....My gut feeling still is when I look at the photo, that this knife was never designed to be used in such a manner.....

Ed Fowler has taught me one very important thng about knife design....that being that everything should have a reason....When you look at this knife, you got to ask yourself, "Why? Whats the reason for that?"

Now yes, I like the design of my knives,,,I try to think of how my knives will be used by the ,,,er,,,user. I try to understand what my knives can expect, and then design the design around the needs they will face..

I would have no problem saying my knife is a real good user,,,,,a good farm knife....because I live on a farm, and my knives are "Farm tested" by me..

But, would I want to go to war with my knife?....no
Would I want to get into a life and death knife fight with my knife?...no
The reason for that is that my design is not a fighter,,,so its the matter of the wrong tool for the job...

If I wanted to make a fighter,,,I would have a huge point,,,maybe a Bowie clip point,,,and a huge full guard to hide behind,,,,Kinda a Rambo style,,

such a knife of mine would be of little real use out here on the farm,,,but then, it's not designed to be....
 
SethMurdoc said:
We believe the Recon Scout® is the strongest, toughest 7 1/2” combat knife in the world. When your consider the price it’s offered at and compare it to the competition, we think you’ll agree it’s the greatest bargain in combat knife history!
Click to expand...

I'm absolutely shocked; shocked, I say, that Cold Steel would say this in its advertising literature. "Strongest", "Toughest", and "Combat" are visceral marketing words designed for its target audience. And it works. People buy. Of course, the qualifiers come next: "consider the price...greatest bargain...you'll agree." I suspect that the competition (Randall, Busse, Strider, et al) requires a somewhat larger outlay of cash. If so, logic suggests to that same buying public that the significantly higher price brings with it a greater degree of design, attention to detail, and quality. High end custom to mass market. But, this sort of marketing is everywhere. Believe the hype and disappointment is sure to follow.
 
So... somehow I missed an important detail and I can't seem to find it. Everyone else is discussing how either CS IS or IS NOT standing up to their hype and making assumptions about what the RS is meant or not meant to do blah blah blah, so I have to assume it's been answered already.

Is CS replacing it under warranty or not?

If they are, that would imply that this type of cutting is approved, implicitly, regardless of what the legal department and the paperwork says. This would be good for the user and a bad precedent for their W&R department.

If they are not, well then, then their marketing is complete hype and here's the evidence to that effect.

Thanks,

-j
 
Peoria46 said:
Of course, the qualifiers come next: "consider the price...greatest bargain...you'll agree."
Click to expand...

yes,,,,the qualifiers always tell the real truth about how things really are...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top