CS Recon Scout Fails Miserably

[Thomas Linton]

Personally, I believe a hatchet is better in that situation. A knife can really only be used for batoning (not always, but generally), however a hatchet can be used for batoning and for chopping, striking, and the "lift and slam" method. As a wood chopper/splitter a hatchet is the better tool.

Many would agree. And so? The issue is the knife. Was it so unreasonable to use it to baton or was it so misused in batonning (or otherwise) that the failure is excused?

More can be done with it [hatchett] and when chopping the strongest part of the head/blade is what impacts first, unlike a knife where if you are chopping it is hitting with a weaker part.

????????? You hit butt first when chopping with an axe?

Also, typically hatchets have a larger angle (greater wedge) so it will go into the wood slightly slower, but will split faster.

Seems true so far as I know. This is why proper technique in batoning a knife may include using wood wedges to overcome this problem.

Many times people talk about using the right tool for the job, I would consider it the right tool for the job of splitting wood.

Many would agree. Not relevant. Steel wedges and a maul are better than an axe. A splitting maul is also better. A power splitter is even better. The knife is an accepted tool to accomplish the task and often expressly designed to accomplish the task. Why did this knife fail on this occasion?

 

[Eric_425]

Steeldriver et al, my point simply is that I think the RS is a fine knife for OTHER jobs. I've said this before (please read my previous posts). It'll do certain jobs very well, and some people are happy with that. If you're not happy with the RS because THIS ONE can't split logs, then that's cool, get another knife that will. Don't dismiss a knife simply because it can't do ONE particular job that certain posters on this thread believe should not be asked of that knife.

It's misleading to state that a particular knife fails "miserably" simply because it can't do ONE THING. If it fails "miserably", one is led to think that it fails at even the most mundane chores, like slicing paper or slicing bread.

This knife did NOT fail at these mundane chores: it failed at a chore that some of us would not use that particular knife for. It's great for our OTHER chores, just not this one. Let me remind you of a poster on this thread who's son is in Iraq, saw these pictures, and felt that this job was "abuse." He's a soldier in Iraq who probably pries open door hinges with his knife, but heck what does he know, right?

A fine knife for other jobs? This is the sort of job it was designed to do. That's like buying a hiking boot that comes apart instantly when hiking, and then saying it's still a good boot because it's good for other chores like regular walks or teething the dog or throwing at loud cats.

The CS recon wasn't designed for slicing paper. It wasn't designed for slicing bread. It's a poor knife choice for that. If that's what you wanted, a finely bladed, more delicate slicer will far outperform it for that task. This knife was overbuilt, giving up qualities that'd make it into a good slicer in the interest of being an extremely durable, survival knife.

It's a survival knife. It should be prepared for survival techniques. Like a hiking boot should be prepared for hiking techniques.

"Right tool for the right job", like you've been repeating so much, right?

Just because some wouldn't use one for that particular use, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to handle it. If I say I wouldn't use a keyboard to type with, does that mean a keyboard shouldn't be able to handle getting used for typing?

 

[shpshooter]

Depends what method you use and what you are splitting. You can split small diameter dry wood with one strike from a hatchet, or you could baton threw it with the hatchet the same way you would with a knife. They both can use pretty much the same amount of energy. The hatchet however is more designed for the purpose it is being used for, so in the long run the hatchet is better, in the short run it can go either way.

 

[Peoria46]

Well, Mike Stewart, for one, designed a knife to be used for "Bushcraft," specifically including batoning. Of course, it is a massive 3/32" thick ( )and 4.24" long.

Is that Mike's Northstar (or the Fox River)? I have his slightly-less-massive Highland. It's still too beautiful to handle roughly, so it's just been treated gently. Nice to know just how rugged they really are.

 

[Josh Muller]

Depends what method you use and what you are splitting. You can split small diameter dry wood with one strike from a hatchet, or you could baton threw it with the hatchet the same way you would with a knife. They both can use pretty much the same amount of energy. The hatchet however is more designed for the purpose it is being used for, so in the long run the hatchet is better, in the short run it can go either way.

fair enough thanks. for some reason battoning a hatchet just didnt occur to me.

 

[shpshooter]

Many would agree. And so? The issue is the knife. Was it so unreasonable to use it to baton or was it so misused in batonning (or otherwise) that the failure is excused?



????????? You hit butt first when chopping with an axe?



Seems true so far as I know. This is why proper technique in batoning a knife may include using wood wedges to overcome this problem.



Many would agree. Not relevant. Steel wedges and a maul are better than an axe. A splitting maul is also better. A power splitter is even better. The knife is an accepted tool to accomplish the task and often expressly designed to accomplish the task. Why did this knife fail on this occasion?

Um, I wasn't talking about the main argument, I was talking about SethMurdoc's question in which he asked which is the better tool for the job in a survival situation. The knife or a hatchet, we wern't talking about mauls, axes, ect. I mean, I have a saw that will work faster then any hand axe, but it wasn't relevant to the question asked.

"????????? You hit butt first when chopping with an axe?" I'm talking about the strongest part of the blade used in chopping. The blade of an axe/hatchet is typically an arc, where the edge is struck (or designed to be struck) is the strongest part of that arc.

 

[Gramps]

Personal obsevations :

1) Good for you for mentoring kids and taking them out into the backcountry...mighty satisfying for them and you I'm certain.
2) Thanks for the tale of your winter adventure and the fine photos...haven't done one for some time . Reminds me of the News Years trip I took back in '80 into the Apache Wilderness with Alex my German Shepard and the ex-wife...under similar conditions. Scary...and exciting !
3) I like a small hatchet when available but if you only have a knife and need a fire...baton away. If the knife busts improvise from there...thats after all what the circumstances requires. If your looking for certainty stay out of the back country and wait for April 4th....it's a sure bet your taxes will come due.

-regards

 

[Thomas Linton]

Is that Mike's Northstar (or the Fox River)? I have his slightly-less-massive Highland. It's still too beautiful to handle roughly, so it's just been treated gently. Nice to know just how rugged they really are.

Correct, the North Star. But I am sure Mike would say that any of his A-2 tool steel knives with a blade at least that thick could handle the batoning. What was special about the NS was designing for carving and drilling, important tasks in "bushcraft."

As Srpshooter has said, all just wedges -- some wider, tougher, heavier than others.

 

[shpshooter]

fair enough thanks. for some reason battoning a hatchet just didnt occur to me.

That is actually what I use my hatchet for most of the time (battoning), I like the control it gives and the lowered risk of chopping off an appendage. Like I said in a post previous in this thread (about how I prefer smaller knives to larger ones for control). I like a lot of control when using sharp tools as I find they only cause accidental harm when not under complete control.

 

[DaQo'tah Forge]

Thomas Linton...

I think the main point is that if you have a tool that you are useing in a manner that you also know will test that tools ability to do the job you are asking of it, and the tool fails........then a good person to talk to would be the maker of that tool.

If Im useing a socket set to hammer nails into cement, (because I also felt that any tool sold to men who work in a shop should be able to do that type of common stuff), and the socket set broke or failed in some manner, I guess I could blame the tool,,,I could show how I have used other socket sets to drive nails into cement before,,,,...

But,,,But to really be able to blame the tool you would have to ask the maker if his socket set was designed to pound nails into cement?

 

[Andrew Lynch]

I think the main point is that if you have a tool that you are useing in a manner that you also know will test that tools ability to do the job you are asking of it, and the tool fails........then a good person to talk to would be the maker of that tool.

That would be useful. However, I would call and ask Cold Steel before buying the knife, and if they state after all their claims and hype that their heavy 5/16" thick Recon Scout bowie knife should not be used to split cut wood, I would laugh and hang up the phone.

However, for me this is not the point. While Cold Steel is not my favorite company, mostly due to their hype, I think the Recon Scout is not a bad knife. The tang-blade juncture is a bad design, but I really doubt that most RS's would fail given this amount of stress. Now, CS's QC is not the best, so I don't know what proportion would fail, but probably not most of them. Basically, I think this knife is a lemon; thus, CS should step up to the plate and take responsibility.

 

[Butcher]

Nutnfancy, he's about testing their skills on what they happen to have on hand, it's not about the axe/hatchet VS the knife. When he first posted i must admit i thought they were using steel hammers but that wasn't the case. These guys know what they're doing. They were stunned as i was when their new knife failed like it did. I was having second thoughts about taking my Trailmaster with me after seeing its little brother die like that. My bowhunting trips take me deep into the sierras where you must rely on your knowledge and the equiptment you carry with you. Cel phones do not work up there, it's just you and mothernature that you must respect, or die. Its great fun when you can be self reliant with the things nature provides, its there for all to enjoy. Thanks for sharing your adventure and the cool pics with us. I,m sure most of us learned something.
Butcher aka Two Hawks

 

[Ebbtide]

Also I did read most of the posts and have a couple of quick observations... starting with a rant. First, Peoria 46, Ebbtide, & 4 Ranges, Daqota Forge, you guys are just lost and don't get it.

What don't I get?
I agreed with you that batonning is legitimate knife use. Even mentioned successfully batonning with my Golok, which is much thinner than the RS.

I agreed with you that the knife shouldn't have broken.

I commended you for teaching kids the ropes.

I wondered whether you had an axe along, and mentioned that we only know what you typed. You could have had one as insurance & not mentioned it...right?

I asked questions. That is part of understanding. Questions like why the wood in photo #1 isn't split end to end like the wood in your recent photos. I asked if yanking on the handle laterally could possibly break the knife.
Conspirecy theories? No. Just unanswered questions.

Nut'n said:

It doesn't make any difference if you twist or tweak... do whatever you need to split that wood and any good knife will take it.

Gee didn't I say a bunch of times that that knife shouldn't have broken?
And

If it doesn't it's a failure.

Isn't that what happened?
I stated that I have no need to be 'right' I just wanted to know why the knife broke (when it shouldn't have).

I asked whether it was a bad knife, bad technique or both.
Now we know that it was a bad knife. I'm relieved.

If my questions ruffled your plumage...well that is what happens when a newbie to the forums comes along and posts such a controversial topic. The newbie gets asked questions. Again, that is part of understanding. If you had made an effort to understand what I was saying, you would have realized that I was agreeing with you, but wanted to know why.

I'm not one the technicalities...

Well that is what I was after.


You asked about my survival experience...I'll paraphrase George Washington Sears. "We don't go out in the woods to rough it. We go to smooth it."
I hunt, I fish, I haven't backpacked in too long, I take my family camping.
I do my best to avoid being in a survival situation.
Looks like you had a nice winter camping trip. Glad that it didn't turn into a survival trip with that avalanche.
Nice photos. We certainly don't have scenery like that in the Catskills!

 

[kevtan]

Knife in question design for survival situation.
It broke doing something its designed to do ( > 1/8" thickness ).
Batonning with a piece of wood into wood.
NOT hammering with the flat of the blade ( should break the blade of D2 )
NOT batonning on the handle ( should only damage the handle and NOT break)
For cutting only I would get one with the thinness blade possible i.e. butchers blade.
Its a lemon with a bad design flaw.
CS aint gonna replace it.
Get a BRKT Northstar.
Get over it.

 

[Nutnfancy]

You guys still don't get it... either that or you are letting your egos get the better of you. Nutnfancy just demonstrated how to dismantle a tree using only a CS RS and you are still calling for axes. I've used an axe a lot and they are great tools for some jobs, but they aren't necessarily the only tools. Considering the snow both going in and out, reducing pack weight is a serious consideration. Excess tools are excess weight...

...Seems to me that batoning should be considered a camping technique which any decent 7"-10" blade can do – if the user is capable. No doubt it's safer than swinging an axe when you're cold.

Thank you Ras! Expertly said.

 

[Nutnfancy]

Lets state it this way, if you are afraid to hit the back of the knife with a wooden baton, how do you dare to hit a log with your axe, the situation is kind of symmetrical.

Yup. Steel should always win in this matchup, knife or axe.

 

[Nutnfancy]

cliff stated earlier that in batoning, you can basically lower the amount of force you use in hitting the knife through the wood to help lower the level of excersion needed to split it. you will work the knife through the wood at a much slower pace, but it will get there, and you wont use up as much energy.

can the same be done with a hatchet?

...which will take less energy, the knife batoning or the hatchet?

More excellence: an axe is bigger, heavier and you will expend more energy using it. In a backpacking scenario, a good survival knife is lighter, more compact, more versatile (haven't we covered this ground before?!), and more precise in energy management and contact as Seth says so clearly above. And minimizing caloric expense is always a good practice, camping or survival. Work smarter...

 

[Nutnfancy]

A fine knife for other jobs? This is the sort of job it was designed to do. That's like buying a hiking boot that comes apart instantly when hiking, and then saying it's still a good boot because it's good for other chores like regular walks or teething the dog or throwing at loud cats.

Dude that is hilarious!!! Too funny but poignant and right on target.

The CS recon wasn't designed for slicing paper. It wasn't designed for slicing bread. It's a poor knife choice for that. If that's what you wanted, a finely bladed, more delicate slicer will far outperform it for that task. This knife was overbuilt, giving up qualities that'd make it into a good slicer in the interest of being an extremely durable, survival knife.

Big time dittos to Eric.

It's a survival knife. It should be prepared for survival techniques. Like a hiking boot should be prepared for hiking techniques. Just because some wouldn't use one for that particular use, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to handle it. If I say I wouldn't use a keyboard to type with, does that mean a keyboard shouldn't be able to handle getting used for typing?

All bolded because it's all good... thanks again.

Anyways more good discussion and thanks to the other interested posters for your comments. Also, apologies to all if my pictures post sounded a little harsh. I was running on empty after the hike out and it was 0300L.... ouch.

 

[OwenM]

Don't feel bad about it. That's what this place needs, more people who will cut through the crap, instead of trying to dress everything up in fear of offending some idiot who acts all injured because you've hurt his feelings, but has no shame about spreading pure BS for people who come here looking for information to read and be misled by.
Nice pics, btw.

 

[Ebbtide]

Also, apologies to all if my pictures post sounded a little harsh.

Apology accepted.