Cts-xhp

[Ankerson]

I explained why Ankerson results can not be trusted - simple because hi did not hit base with curved 710 edge unlike other knives he tested - that was not addressed, knarfeng from what I remember do visual inspection which I also did initially five years ago but did not find this directly related to sharpness.

So conclusion is based on my formal test with strict procedure and real world hard use.

Thanks, Vassili.

I did address that, and you just didn't accept it and that's fine because I really don't care if you do or not....

That recurve isn't the only M390 blade that I have cut with either.

 

[cziv]

In my experience it does show up. Take a CTS XHP or other D2 knife and a S90V bladed knife and cut to failure on dirty, nasty, old carpet. See which one cuts longer.

It's going to be the S90V ( or S110V) blade if both were given the same, say 35 to 40 degree, 800 to a thousand grit edge to begin with.

Different horses for different courses. That's why I treat knives like regular tools. There are different tools for different jobs. Not better or worse tools, different ones designed to do different things.

Heck, cut plain two inch rope to failure on your rig and see which steels last longer. Not at high sharpness measured in grams, but cut until it won't cut anymore. It's not going to be D2. Joe

Just wonder what you and Jim agreeing, which steel edges will hold the longest in the scenario you describe here above and why??

 

[Ankerson]

Just wonder what you and Jim agreeing, which steel edges will hold the longest in the scenario you describe here above and why??

Take S90V, the polished edge will hold longer while the 1000 grit edge would be more aggressive, but not by much. S90V is a very aggressive cutter and the carbides really take over and cut for a very long time. It a steel that you think is dull, but it will still cut the hell out of you, it's that aggressive.

 

[nozh2002]

I did address that, and you just didn't accept it and that's fine because I really don't care if you do or not....

That recurve isn't the only M390 blade that I have cut with either.

No you did not addressed that, you just sad that you do not agree, which is not addressing. BM710 has curve which prevent edge to hit base same way it hit for Military and so load on the edge is significantly different which explains big results difference between your test and my tests with others field experience.

You disagree but this is not addressing. You have you own opinion but this is not addressing. You have you opinion, and I respect that, but with all respect, my question was not addressed.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

In my experience it does show up. Take a CTS XHP or other D2 knife and a S90V bladed knife and cut to failure on dirty, nasty, old carpet. See which one cuts longer.

It's going to be the S90V ( or S110V) blade if both were given the same, say 35 to 40 degree, 800 to a thousand grit edge to begin with.

Different horses for different courses. That's why I treat knives like regular tools. There are different tools for different jobs. Not better or worse tools, different ones designed to do different things.

Heck, cut plain two inch rope to failure on your rig and see which steels last longer. Not at high sharpness measured in grams, but cut until it won't cut anymore. It's not going to be D2. Joe

Did you done this test or you suggesting me to do this? If this was not done by anybody, I rather wait for someone to have it done and see results, otherwise my tests and field use suggesting opposite.

Also I am not quite sure if this is valid representation of knife use. At least I can not imagine myself "cutting to the failure on dirty, nasty, old carpet", I consider cutting with dull knife dangerous - most nastiest cuts I have was from dull knives, which require too much force to cut and in result it is out of control. So if knife is dull - even if we call it "working edge" I will rather sharpen it to avoid trouble. I also suggest everybody not to use dull knives to the failure - it is simple very bad idea.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Ankerson]

No you did not addressed that, you just sad that you do not agree, which is not addressing. BM710 has curve which prevent edge to hit base same way it hit for Military and so load on the edge is significantly different which explains big results difference between your test and my tests with others field experience.

You disagree but this is not addressing. You have you own opinion but this is not addressing. You have you opinion, and I respect that, but with all respect, my question was not addressed.

Thanks, Vassili.

I don't answer to you so I addressed as I saw fit.

It was explained more than once so the issue is dead as far as I am concerned.

 

[The Mastiff]

Did you done this test or you suggesting me to do this? If this was not done by anybody, I rather wait for someone to have it done and see results, otherwise my tests and field use suggesting opposite.

Also I am not quite sure if this is valid representation of knife use. At least I can not imagine myself "cutting to the failure on dirty, nasty, old carpet", I consider cutting with dull knife dangerous - most nastiest cuts I have was from dull knives, which require too much force to cut and in result it is out of control. So if knife is dull - even if we call it "working edge" I will rather sharpen it to avoid trouble. I also suggest everybody not to use dull knives to the failure - it is simple very bad idea.

Thanks, Vassili

Vassili, I'm not suggesting you should give up or throw out your results. They are excellent and a lot of hard work has gone into them. I am suggesting that there is more to "wear resistance" than is examined in any one test, including yours. That's why it's important we look at the subject from all angles.

I'm not asking you to do these tests any more than I would ask you to do research on a subject I needed done. Everybody needs to do their own cutting, whether in a formal test or real life cutting. With new steels hitting the market all the time the more we learn about them , the better.

I do ask you to keep an open mind that there can be other types of tests that can result in completely opposite results from yours but still be valuable additions to our body of knowledge.

Just wonder what you and Jim agreeing, which steel edges will hold the longest in the scenario you describe here above and why??

cziv, it's going to be the steels designed for heavy wear. The vanadium carbide is excellent. To be honest, If I couldn't use my disposable carpet knife blades and had to pick one steel I'd go for 10V at RC 63-64. It has a near perfect combo of wear resistance and hardness. Of course one mishap with a steel staple or nail and I'd be wishing I used my disposable bladed carpet knife rather than my high dollar ( for me anyway) custom.

 

[nozh2002]

Vassili, I'm not suggesting you should give up or throw out your results. They are excellent and a lot of hard work has gone into them. I am suggesting that there is more to "wear resistance" than is examined in any one test, including yours. That's why it's important we look at the subject from all angles.

I'm not asking you to do these tests any more than I would ask you to do research on a subject I needed done. Everybody needs to do their own cutting, whether in a formal test or real life cutting. With new steels hitting the market all the time the more we learn about them , the better.

I do ask you to keep an open mind that there can be other types of tests that can result in completely opposite results from yours but still be valuable additions to our body of knowledge.

Well, I am open. But we just need to make clear what are we talking about. You sounds like someone actually did "cutting to the failure on dirty, nasty, old carpet" with CPM S90V outperforms everything else.

While actually this never happened and this is just you think it will happen if someone will do this test. My tests with a lot of manila rope being cut suggested that CPM S90V has better then average but far from the best performance.

Until someone actually do "cutting to the failure on dirty, nasty, old carpet" we can not count on that as fact of live. Only what we have so far actually done suggested opposite.

But of course I will only wellcome if someone do formal testing (not cutting show) of that "cutting to the failure on dirty, nasty, old carpet". But most likely this will never happen.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

I don't answer to you so I addressed as I saw fit.

It was explained more than once so the issue is dead as far as I am concerned.

Yes this is what I always got from you. Sorry again this does not address my concerns, but rather explain what is going on.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[The Mastiff]

Well, I am open. But we just need to make clear what are we talking about. You sounds like someone actually did "cutting to the failure on dirty, nasty, old carpet" with CPM S90V outperforms everything else.

You don't sound very open. Haven't you ever installed new carpets in your house. Painted, Fixed walls, etc?

Yep, S90V will outcut to resharpening D2, BG42, and VG10 in old carpet. That I know from experience. The real hard use king is Yablanowitz. He's a professional and does more in a week than i do in a year though.

You've ignored his stuff too though.

What interested me the most was a guy who was talking about steels dulling faster in acidic fruits. I'm not much of a cook and I don't have any experience with that type of thing. It would make an interesting test though.

Regards, Joe/raleigh

 

[spydusse]

Like I said before I don't give two shizens about other peoples results . I am going to use the steel that works best at my job wich is xhp . I'm not saying m390 in other applicatins might work better , but I know what works best for me and the applications in wich I use it for so I plan on buying more knives in zdp and xhp and I don't plan on involving myself in these pety bickering arguments,

 

[Ankerson]

You don't sound very open. Haven't you ever installed new carpets in your house. Painted, Fixed walls, etc?

Yep, S90V will outcut to resharpening D2, BG42, and VG10 in old carpet. That I know from experience. The real hard use king is Yablanowitz. He's a professional and does more in a week than i do in a year though.

You've ignored his stuff too though.

What interested me the most was a guy who was talking about steels dulling faster in acidic fruits. I'm not much of a cook and I don't have any experience with that type of thing. It would make an interesting test though.

Regards, Joe/raleigh

Old carpet will dull the crap out of a blade in a real hurry, old thick carpet padding can be even worse.

It's like cutting dirt.....

 

[spydusse]

If u you house train ur dogs u won't need to replace ur carpet hahaha

 

[singularity35]

If u you house train ur dogs u won't need to replace ur carpet hahaha

... I don't plan on involving myself in these pety bickering arguments,

You seem to be doing that...

 

[The Mastiff]

Like I said before I don't give two shizens about other peoples results . I am going to use the steel that works best at my job wich is xhp . I'm not saying m390 in other applicatins might work better , but I know what works best for me and the applications in wich I use it for so I plan on buying more knives in zdp and xhp and I don't plan on involving myself in these pety bickering arguments,

That's the right way to buy a knife. Everybodies needs are different.

If u you house train ur dogs u won't need to replace ur carpet hahaha

Finn the Mastiff is a super dog. Super dogs don't have accidents. That's just as well too as when a 200 plus lb. dog drops a steamer it would run everybody out of the house.

Old carpet will dull the crap out of a blade in a real hurry, old thick carpet padding can be even worse.

It's like cutting dirt.....

There was plenty of dirt in it. Tiny gravel pieces too, That's why I went out anf bought a carpet knife with disposable blades. It's worth it to me.

And, I'm already needing new carpet too. Next year maybe.

 

[nozh2002]

You don't sound very open. Haven't you ever installed new carpets in your house. Painted, Fixed walls, etc?

Yep, S90V will outcut to resharpening D2, BG42, and VG10 in old carpet. That I know from experience. The real hard use king is Yablanowitz. He's a professional and does more in a week than i do in a year though.

You've ignored his stuff too though.

What interested me the most was a guy who was talking about steels dulling faster in acidic fruits. I'm not much of a cook and I don't have any experience with that type of thing. It would make an interesting test though.

Regards, Joe/raleigh

I did not done carpet yet, but install drywall, sprinkles, fence etc... Best was ZDP-189 (I did not have CTS-XHP).

I would agree that CPM S90V will outcut average D2 (if it is not Dozier made), BG42 and VG10. This is what my tests show too.

But I have experience on my house projects also with much more steels than you - I used ZDP-189, Dozier D2, SR101, CPM M4, X12MF, Jody Muller 1095 - all of them where ahead of CPM S90V. I also uses other steel like CPM S30V, BG42, CPM 154, AUS8, SRS-15, Sandvic 1326, 420HC... which were clearly behind CPM S90V.

I do not see here any base to disagree - you just use 4 steels and CPM S90V happen to be best among them and I support that, no questions. I used way more steels, premium steels and CPM S90V was not best among my choice.

And that was supported as well by test results. Probably most convinien working knife was actually Cheburkov with X12MF - which is Russian steel, I would say D2 on steroids (Vaccum Arc Remelting, Electro Slug Remelting and other Russian metallurgical magic). It is not Russian version of D2, D2 is just closest Western analog in composition. It is not best in test results but thin edge and grind and polish and movement... all make excellent working knife.

I can see that based on you experience you may think that high carbide content is better after all CPM S90V was better then D2, BG-42 and VG-10.
However, from my experience and testing I am saying that this is not what I see - because CPM S90V is behind ZDP-189, Dozier D2, SR101, CPM M4, X12MF, Jody Muller 1095 in house projects and manila rope tests.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Ankerson]

That's the right way to buy a knife. Everybodies needs are different.



Finn the Mastiff is a super dog. Super dogs don't have accidents. That's just as well too as when a 200 plus lb. dog drops a steamer it would run everybody out of the house.


There was plenty of dirt in it. Tiny gravel pieces too, That's why I went out anf bought a carpet knife with disposable blades. It's worth it to me.

And, I'm already needing new carpet too. Next year maybe.

I cut some thick padding and took a blade that was screaming sharp to butter knife dull in less than 5 ft.

So yeah a carpet knife is the ticket.

 

[Ankerson]

I did not done carpet yet, but install drywall, sprinkles, fence etc... Best was ZDP-189 (I did not have CTS-XHP).

I would agree that CPM S90V will outcut average D2 (if it is not Dozier made), BG42 and VG10. This is what my tests show too.

But I have experience on my house projects also with much more steels than you - I used ZDP-189, Dozier D2, SR101, CPM M4, X12MF, Jody Muller 1095 - all of them where ahead of CPM S90V. I also uses other steel like CPM S30V, BG42, CPM 154, AUS8, SRS-15, Sandvic 1326, 420HC... which were clearly behind CPM S90V.

I do not see here any base to disagree - you just use 4 steels and CPM S90V happen to be best among them and I support that, no questions. I used way more steels, premium steels and CPM S90V was not best among my choice.

And that was supported as well by test results. Probably most convinien working knife was actually Cheburkov with X12MF - which is Russian steel, I would say D2 on steroids (Vaccum Arc Remelting, Electro Slug Remelting and other Russian metallurgical magic). It is not Russian version of D2, D2 is just closest Western analog in composition. It is not best in test results but thin edge and grind and polish and movement... all make excellent working knife.

I can see that based on you experience you may think that high carbide content is better after all CPM S90V was better then D2, BG-42 and VG-10.
However, from my experience and testing I am saying that this is not what I see - because CPM S90V is behind ZDP-189, Dozier D2, SR101, CPM M4, X12MF, Jody Muller 1095 in house projects and manila rope tests.

Thanks, Vassili.

Dozier grinds his blades VERY thin, I know because I have one here and have seen more than a few over the years. That could explain your results compared to some other blades you cut with.

That's also the reason I don't use Phil Wilson knives in my results because they are very thin, optimal HT and the results are off the charts compared to the production blades. Believe me there is a huge difference, really huge.

You really can't compare a blade that is around .010 behind the edge to a production blade that is .025+

 

[nozh2002]

Dozier grinds his blades VERY thin, I know because I have one here and have seen more than a few over the years. That could explain your results compared to some other blades you cut with.

That's also the reason I don't use Phil Wilson knives in my results because they are very thin, optimal HT and the results are off the charts compared to the production blades. Believe me there is a huge difference, really huge.

You really can't compare a blade that is around .010 behind the edge to a production blade that is .025+

As you may learn from my test description I am not measuring force required to cut rope and so edge thickness does not matter (as well as many other factors I eliminated). I measure sharpness by cotton thread and it is thinner then any edge. So I thought this through five years ago and toke all that into account, so I can compare blade with different edge thickness, unlike you.

I would agree that in your test you may test not steel property but edge thickness. But this is not only factor which affect your results and make them random - I already mention that you cutting wooden base not only rope, and many other things.

I have several Doziers in my collection and they all have different edge thickness depends on model:

I have on my Doziers 3/64", 1/32", 1/32", 1/64"
and on Buck 110 - 1/32
and on Manix II CTS-XHP - 1/32"
and on BM710 M2 - 1/32"
and BM710 M390 - 1/64".

just measured it.

So as you may see this is not an issue, at least for my tests. BM710 M390 with 1/64" did not out cut Dozier KS7 with 3 times thicker edge as well as many other knives.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[The Mastiff]

I can see that based on you experience you may think that high carbide content is better after all CPM S90V was better then D2, BG-42 and VG-10.
However, from my experience and testing I am saying that this is not what I see - because CPM S90V is behind ZDP-189, Dozier D2, SR101, CPM M4, X12MF, Jody Muller 1095 in house projects and manila rope tests

Vassili,

I was talking about one type of job falling under the umbrella topic of wear resistance and gave an example but you changed the subject, then tried to say you used more steels than I did. It's difficult keeping up a civil dialog under these circumstances. We're not in a contest of any sort, nor do you know what knives I have used at home for anything but one project with a carpet I posted about. Please try to stay on the subject and don't feel you need to defend your work. Your work is excellent, but it only covers a small area of one part of one of the big three knife steel attributes.

The fact is that the demands on a knife blade and steel are different cutting up old, dirty carpets from the demands in your testing, or your drywall and sprinkles cutting jobs.

One job ( carpet) needs one type of attribute from a steel, the next job calls for something completely different( measured weights cutting twine after dulling on half inch rope). These are still under the unbrella topic of wear resistance which is only one of the three attributes by which we gauge our steel needs. We could come up with other tests to explore even other aspects of "wear resistance" and probably eventually will.

Do you claim a crescent wrench is better than a screwdriver or are they just different tools for different jobs?

That's what steels are to me. S90V isn't my favorite steel, nor do I claim any kind of overall superiority for it other than with the quantifier that that knife was better at that particular job on that day.

Any other claims can't be proven. Not in the 40 years I've been collecting knives have I seen an argument proven about any steels superiority. The best we can hope for is a steel or knife being the best at any given task. The resources to do otherwise are beyond most of us.

Probably most convinien working knife was actually Cheburkov with X12MF - which is Russian steel, I would say D2 on steroids (Vaccum Arc Remelting, Electro Slug Remelting and other Russian metallurgical magic)

I've seen pictures you've posted of this knife. It's a beautiful knife and it looks pretty comfortable to work with. I've never tried that steel, with it, and T1 being the only ones on your list I don't have personal experience with. Also, I currently don't own a 10V knife. I do have a couple not on your list from your testing webpage.

Vacuum Arc Remelting ( VAR) is also used on BG42, amongst other steels. It's not magic, but it does help get some of the impurities out. Some metals like Titanium have to be VAR'ed 2 or 3 times.

I believe Carpenter is going to produce a version of BG42 ( CTS B75 ?) that's been both VAR'ed, and using the powder process. BG42 normally is an ingot steel. It's one I'm looking forward to trying as it's extremely clean, but with the PM advantages.

I've always enjoyed BG42 though in general stainless steels aren't my favorites and hope this works out. Things are looking up for us steel junkies.

Regards, Joe/raleigh