Cts-xhp

[The Mastiff]

What is wrong with logic here?

There is nothing wrong with that logic if I was making a statement about better or worse steels. I'm not. I only stated that S90V lasted longer than those other steels in that application. I claim no theory or tests.

Why are you trying to make this a competition where someone is right and the other guy is wrong?

That's generally a waste of time and to be honest. makes me feel as if I'm talking to someone that doesn't understand what I say, and what I don't say.

Your testing works excellently for you. I don't disagree with it, or anything about it.

There's nothing here for you to prove your superiority over.

I have no system, tests, theories or anything else.

Regards, Joe/raleigh

 

[nozh2002]

There is nothing wrong with that logic if I was making a statement about better or worse steels. I'm not. I only stated that S90V lasted longer than those other steels in that application. I claim no theory or tests.

Why are you trying to make this a competition where someone is right and the other guy is wrong?

That's generally a waste of time and to be honest. makes me feel as if I'm talking to someone that doesn't understand what I say, and what I don't say.

Your testing works excellently for you. I don't disagree with it, or anything about it.

There's nothing here for you to prove your superiority over.

I have no system, tests, theories or anything else.

Regards, Joe/raleigh

Well, you are right - CPM S90V better then BG42, VG10 and generic D2. My tests as well show same.

Now I do not know are you right or wrong betting on CPM S90V being better then CTS-XHP. My point is simple that this is just your bet based on limited experience with four steels.

I just correct you a bit here:

...Take a CTS XHP or other D2 knife and a S90V bladed knife and cut to failure on dirty, nasty, old carpet. See which one cuts longer.

It's going to be the S90V ( or S110V) blade if both were given the same, say 35 to 40 degree, 800 to a thousand grit edge to begin with.

You probably should say:
"I bet it's going to be S90V."

Otherwise it sounds like you talking about known fact. But you explained later that this is not a case, and no one really ever did this with CTS-XHP (or Dozier D2) and CPM S90V side by side.

My bet will be on CTS-XHP side, because it shows better result on manila rope cutting test.

Now when marketing page on Carpenter website sad something like "stainless D2" - this may only mean that it performs as good as Dozier D2 but also stainless, or it may mean it has similar carbon content etc...

I would not take it seriously into account and think about it as D2 but stainless. This is just so simplistic, I do not understand why everybody buying this and repeating it again and again everywhere. Average D2 has huge carbides, this one most likely not, because it is I suppose PM steel (I assume this is what carpenter's micro melting means).

Also huge amount of Chromium make things really different, making steel harder, less plastic - again how can someone who has even little idea about steel and it's components repeat something like this everywhere, seriously?

Swamp Rat marketing web page sad SR101 is 52100 with Cryptonite added - yes it looks like this because performance is excellent, but do you believe in that literally too?

Now based on the fact you did not specify what D2 did you use, I assume it is average not Dozier D2 (or Kabar D2 made by Dozier HT). Average D2 show average results and far far from CTS-XHP performance. Actually BM D2 shows worse result in my testings. What was manufacturer of your D2?

So again I have quite a bit of reasons to believe that CTS-XHP will beat CPM S90V even on old dirty carpet.

Sorry if this make you feel uncomfortable somehow.

Problem is that this kind of situation when some assumption made same way taken by many as a known facts and then I start having problems when my findings during my testing show opposite to what people get used to think as known fact. In many cases this difference between my tests and commonly accepted believes leads to aggression. Loyal customers start looking at me as at enemy who intentionally fake results just to hurt their beloved brand etc. You may see this a lot early in this thread. This is why I may be so picky on that matter and try to make my point here.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[The Mastiff]

You probably should say:
"I bet it's going to be S90V."

Otherwise it sounds like you talking about known fact. But you explained later that this is not a case, and no one really ever did this with CTS-XHP (or Dozier D2) and CPM S90V side by side.

You are right and I stand corrected. I should have clearly labeled that as an opinion and not any kind of fact.

The knife was Benchmade D2 BTW, and I have no idea what the hardness ratings were/are on any of the knives used.

The thing I really learned was that it was worth getting the disposable blades as the carpet was like a machine designed to dull blades. None of the steels did all that well. The disposable blades are carbon steel of unknown composition and last a bit longer mainly because they are thinner stock. I wouldn't call them better steel and if I had to guess I'd say they were in the category of O-1 at about RC 60-61.

They came in packs of a hundred for more than the cost of the knife itself, which was just a cheap stamped metal blade changing knife. The carpet from just my living room takes about 6-8 blades to cut up the carpet. I had to make the pieces small as I didn't have a large truck to take to the landfill. It was a small toyota truck.

Anyways, There's nothing wrong with being picky when it comes to information. Incorrect information is worse than no information at all.

Regards, Joe

 

[jimnolimit]

Of course consumer should not know raw test results - otherwise they may start having wrong ideas... After all it costs $2 per lb...

So... I understand why knife industry hiding test data from customers, but seeing same approach from independent tester? At least I show everything. I wold imaging hiding what I am doing if I would do some knife commercial, some cutting show to promote one or other steel, but in edge retention testing business I think all data need to be disclosed.

Thanks, Vassili.

most people can't subjectively look at a specific independent test. different testing materials, edge design and heat treating will change those results (as a few of us here know), but to most people s30v is s30v (for example). this will give most people looking at the test the wrong idea. it doesn't matter who publishes the results as most people will use any results as validation. so far nearly 6000 people have looked at this thread, but only a few people looking at this thread are actually in the discussion or have enough personal experience to reasonably review raw data.

 

[singularity35]

You are right and I stand corrected. I should have clearly labeled that as an opinion and not any kind of fact.

The knife was Benchmade D2 BTW, and I have no idea what the hardness ratings were/are on any of the knives used.

The thing I really learned was that it was worth getting the disposable blades as the carpet was like a machine designed to dull blades. None of the steels did all that well. The disposable blades are carbon steel of unknown composition and last a bit longer mainly because they are thinner stock. I wouldn't call them better steel and if I had to guess I'd say they were in the category of O-1 at about RC 60-61.

They came in packs of a hundred for more than the cost of the knife itself, which was just a cheap stamped metal blade changing knife. The carpet from just my living room takes about 6-8 blades to cut up the carpet. I had to make the pieces small as I didn't have a large truck to take to the landfill. It was a small toyota truck.

Anyways, There's nothing wrong with being picky when it comes to information. Incorrect information is worse than no information at all.

Regards, Joe

You are a gentleman Joe, but then I always knew that.

 

[bchan77]

You are a gentleman Joe, but then I always knew that.

+1. If only people can respond to others' criticisms like Joe there will be more meaningful discussion and less meaningless bickering.

 

[Ankerson]

I am going to remember this thread if Carpenter ever produces enough 20CP and 204P in large enough quantity that the Knife Companies can make knives out of them.

 

[Phil Wilson]

Let me make a few observations: CTS XHP – looks like nice steel, I can’t speak from experience since I haven’t been able to obtain any to work with. I like theLe PM base, the high amount of carbon and chrome. The obtainable hardness should be pretty high, about like D2. It will be full of chrome carbides and will have enough left in the matrix for excellent corrosion resistance. In a head to head comparison with the exact same knife geometry, sharpening and cutting rope I would not expect it to have better wear resistance than CPM S90V. This is an opinion since I have not done the test. This is based on more than 10 years’ experience working with S90V and comparing it to other steels. In many cases it is hard to make a comparison with 90V with anything since it is one of the hardest steels to heat treat, hit the right hardness and grind to a good finish. In most cases the blades I have hardness tested, checked for those who want to know, are less than the 60/61 Rockwell that is the sweet spot for this steel. CPM S90V has a huge load of Vanadium Carbide in addition to the chrome carbide. We all know that vanadium carbide is much harder than chrome carbide. Logic would tell us that if the fine edge can hold up and wear past the initial micron dimension that the Vanadium carbide will come into play and start to resist the abrasion. That is exactly what I have seen cutting rope with CPM S90V. It starts out sharp, tends to wear but not lose the bite and continue to cut for a long time at a pretty constant force. In order to see this happen you have to cut for a while and I don’t believe, my opinion again, that ½ inch rope presents enough of a challenge. If you use at least 5/8 rope and cut until 16-20 lbs. is reached on the scale then S90V starts to show off its stuff. At that point you find the plateau. Would CTS XHP do this? will find out first opportunity since I would very much like to try it out. To really see a difference between two steels the knives have to have close edge geometry, same sharpening, known hardness and a very controlled hand while cutting. I do some hunting and over the years have found that the high vanadium steels, CPM 10V, CPM S90V and S110V, CPM S30V, M390 and ELMAX will hold an edge a lot longer than chrome carbide steels. An elk or wild pig usually has some dirt embedded in the hide and is a lot like the dirty carpet that Joe is talking about. This is of course all my opinion based on my testing, and actual field use. Others will have different results based on different test methods and experience. Phil

 

[Ankerson]

Let me make a few observations: CTS XHP – looks like nice steel, I can’t speak from experience since I haven’t been able to obtain any to work with. I like theLe PM base, the high amount of carbon and chrome. The obtainable hardness should be pretty high, about like D2. It will be full of chrome carbides and will have enough left in the matrix for excellent corrosion resistance. In a head to head comparison with the exact same knife geometry, sharpening and cutting rope I would not expect it to have better wear resistance than CPM S90V. This is an opinion since I have not done the test. This is based on more than 10 years’ experience working with S90V and comparing it to other steels. In many cases it is hard to make a comparison with 90V with anything since it is one of the hardest steels to heat treat, hit the right hardness and grind to a good finish. In most cases the blades I have hardness tested, checked for those who want to know, are less than the 60/61 Rockwell that is the sweet spot for this steel. CPM S90V has a huge load of Vanadium Carbide in addition to the chrome carbide. We all know that vanadium carbide is much harder than chrome carbide. Logic would tell us that if the fine edge can hold up and wear past the initial micron dimension that the Vanadium carbide will come into play and start to resist the abrasion. That is exactly what I have seen cutting rope with CPM S90V. It starts out sharp, tends to wear but not lose the bite and continue to cut for a long time at a pretty constant force. In order to see this happen you have to cut for a while and I don’t believe, my opinion again, that ½ inch rope presents enough of a challenge. If you use at least 5/8 rope and cut until 16-20 lbs. is reached on the scale then S90V starts to show off its stuff. At that point you find the plateau. Would CTS XHP do this? will find out first opportunity since I would very much like to try it out. To really see a difference between two steels the knives have to have close edge geometry, same sharpening, known hardness and a very controlled hand while cutting. I do some hunting and over the years have found that the high vanadium steels, CPM 10V, CPM S90V and S110V, CPM S30V, M390 and ELMAX will hold an edge a lot longer than chrome carbide steels. An elk or wild pig usually has some dirt embedded in the hide and is a lot like the dirty carpet that Joe is talking about. This is of course all my opinion based on my testing, and actual field use. Others will have different results based on different test methods and experience. Phil

And it will still cut like an SOB after you are done too won't it.

Just had to needle you alittle.

 

[nozh2002]

The knife was Benchmade D2 BTW, and I have no idea what the hardness ratings were/are on any of the knives used.

I think we are in agreement here.

Only I should note once again that BM D2 on my tests show worse result among all steels including 420HC (which is in average performance) and AUS8 etc. To me this is not good representation of D2 and we should not rate D2 based on knives from this manufacturers. Kabar has excellent result and Kershaw CPM D2 is quite a performerm but lately I try to stay away from any BM because always results ar not that impressive.

I bought and tested BM710 M390 only because Ankerson directly asked me to do this. I guess I should not. M360 is poor performer and it seems like Ankerson as well in return ignores my much smaller request to try to cut rope without wooden base.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

most people can't subjectively look at a specific independent test. different testing materials, edge design and heat treating will change those results (as a few of us here know), but to most people s30v is s30v (for example). this will give most people looking at the test the wrong idea. it doesn't matter who publishes the results as most people will use any results as validation. so far nearly 6000 people have looked at this thread, but only a few people looking at this thread are actually in the discussion or have enough personal experience to reasonably review raw data.

Sure this is why marketing department is so important - they can sell anything!

Funny, but I heard similar ideas about that regular people should not be involved in decision making or rather excluded because they do not know everything and can not understand complexity etc... It was on on Marks-Lenin Phylosophy, PolitEconomy and Scientific Communism - mandatory classes for University education in USSR. Seems like Russians did not agreed finally and put those experts aside, now Russia is booming and already surpass USSR power, after total collapse, I should mention.

Of course commies were not good sales reps. Did not learn well public relation and marketing in their Communist Academy. They did bad job selling this ideas...

Again I think everybody would be able to see difference between those to numbers from CATRA edge retention test:

CPM S30V - 541
CPM S60V - 1030

I do not think that it will be too many people who will agree that CPM S30V will be better deal then CPM S60V especially for same price (I am not talking about $2 per lib Crucible ask for that steel).

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[nozh2002]

Let me make a few observations: CTS XHP – looks like nice steel, I can’t speak from experience since I haven’t been able to obtain any to work with. I like theLe PM base, the high amount of carbon and chrome. The obtainable hardness should be pretty high, about like D2. It will be full of chrome carbides and will have enough left in the matrix for excellent corrosion resistance. In a head to head comparison with the exact same knife geometry, sharpening and cutting rope I would not expect it to have better wear resistance than CPM S90V. This is an opinion since I have not done the test. This is based on more than 10 years’ experience working with S90V and comparing it to other steels. In many cases it is hard to make a comparison with 90V with anything since it is one of the hardest steels to heat treat, hit the right hardness and grind to a good finish. In most cases the blades I have hardness tested, checked for those who want to know, are less than the 60/61 Rockwell that is the sweet spot for this steel. CPM S90V has a huge load of Vanadium Carbide in addition to the chrome carbide. We all know that vanadium carbide is much harder than chrome carbide. Logic would tell us that if the fine edge can hold up and wear past the initial micron dimension that the Vanadium carbide will come into play and start to resist the abrasion. That is exactly what I have seen cutting rope with CPM S90V. It starts out sharp, tends to wear but not lose the bite and continue to cut for a long time at a pretty constant force. In order to see this happen you have to cut for a while and I don’t believe, my opinion again, that ½ inch rope presents enough of a challenge. If you use at least 5/8 rope and cut until 16-20 lbs. is reached on the scale then S90V starts to show off its stuff. At that point you find the plateau. Would CTS XHP do this? will find out first opportunity since I would very much like to try it out. To really see a difference between two steels the knives have to have close edge geometry, same sharpening, known hardness and a very controlled hand while cutting. I do some hunting and over the years have found that the high vanadium steels, CPM 10V, CPM S90V and S110V, CPM S30V, M390 and ELMAX will hold an edge a lot longer than chrome carbide steels. An elk or wild pig usually has some dirt embedded in the hide and is a lot like the dirty carpet that Joe is talking about. This is of course all my opinion based on my testing, and actual field use. Others will have different results based on different test methods and experience. Phil

It will be nice to see that test results you mentioned as well as clear description of testing you did. From what I remember you as well uses wooden base and this make results random. I was asking this for years and it was not ever addressed.

Dozier make his living selling knives for hunters, he is doing this for decades. And hunters love his knives - he produces quite a lot per month but you have to wait for year if you order it directly.

I hear a lot of good reviews about Dozier knives especially from hunters. And he has his special D2 heat treatment which make those knives best. It is after his success manufacturers starts using D2 capitalizing on reputation he made in years for D2 first working for A.G.Ressel and later on his own. This is also backed up by my tests. He will do CPM S30V by customer request but, from what I hear he still prefer D2 for better performance.

I also hear quite a number of complains about CPM S30V from hunters on Buck forums, where Buck hunters - Vanguard and 110 were introduced with CPM S30V by Cabela's. I see several complains about CPM S30V and no single good review from practical hunters, except you.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Phil Wilson]

Vasili, yes I cut against an Alder wood base. You continue to ding me on this and I have explained my rationale many times. I cut with 3 /4 inch rope and the rope is many more time more abrasive than the alder wood. What ever contribution to the edge dulling I judge to be minor in comparison to the rope. I like a solid base other wise the rope tends to splay out at the end of the cut and not cut nice and crisp. You like the slot, I can see with 1/2 inch rope how that may work out better for you. With that skinny rope the wood could have a larger percentage of influence. In additon what ever influence the wood has it is the same for all the tests. I have used the same wood for 10 years. It works for me and I get the testing comparisons and results I need to tweak heat treating, sharpening and edge geometery.

 

[Gator97]

...I was asking this for years and it was not ever addressed.

Yeah, you're real good at making demands to everyone, and then complaining how they don't do what you "ask"...

I hear a lot of good reviews about Dozier knives especially from hunters.

As far as I know you, you never hear anything that doesn't agree with your point of view, which is the problem you have.

This is also backed up by my tests.

Which nobody can reproduce, including you.

He will do CPM S30V by customer request but, from what I hear he still prefer D2 for better performance.

That's what he prefers, based on his much greater experience with D2. Every maker has favorite steel/steels that he prefers to work with. Nobody, except you uses that simple fact as an indisputable proof of superiority of one steel, which in itself is wrong, one alloy can't be the best choice for everything, except of course in your world.

I think if raw CATRA results for CPM S60V and CPM S30V was published at time before "replacement" happen nobody toke that seriously...

CPM S30V - 541
CPM S60V - 1030
CPM S90V - 1014

For one, you will never be able to replicate CATRA machine results by hand. A lot of people used CPM S60V in various knives and reported problems related to low edge retention at low hardness, or brittleness at high hardness. Testers and non testers alike. All that doesn't matter for you, but matters for makers. I know, it's frustrating for you that they don't listen to your wisdom, but customers you know...

Of course consumer should not know raw test results - otherwise they may start having wrong ideas...

You are a very clear example why some customers should never know raw test results You inability or unwillingness to read/understand anything beyond 3 numbers is why... Knife used by hand, especially when doing something besides cutting paper behaves very differently compared to CATRA. Pretty much everyone has already told you that CATRA is just one aspect of knife testing, but you go on with your conspiracy theories...

So... I understand why knife industry hiding test data from customers,

Yeah, those evil capitalists, meanwhile Russian metallurgy industry is busy with "magic"

 

[Phil Wilson]

Vasili, some more thoughts. I don't know what your response to me has to do with Bob Dozier. In any case, yes Bob makes and excellet hunting knife. He understands heat treating and geometry and is very consistent in his work. He works with D2 and gets all of the potential possible out of that steel. I also like D2 and early on it was my favorite steel. When the CPM steels were introduced I tried them and they were a challange. Not so nice to heat treat as D2 and a lot more difficult to finish. We all makers tend to have a niche and that is great since if we all did the same thing it would be boring. As far as my testing methods they are very straight forward. I put all this up some years ago and also there is some information on my website. I am not going to post actual data on number of cuts and pounds force and all that since everyone who does this will get differnent numbers and I will spend time defending it all. I want to make knives and play with heat treating. Phil

 

[nozh2002]

Vasili, some more thoughts. I don't know what your response to me has to do with Bob Dozier. In any case, yes Bob makes and excellet hunting knife. He understands heat treating and geometry and is very consistent in his work. He works with D2 and gets all of the potential possible out of that steel. I also like D2 and early on it was my favorite steel. When the CPM steels were introduced I tried them and they were a challange. Not so nice to heat treat as D2 and a lot more difficult to finish. We all makers tend to have a niche and that is great since if we all did the same thing it would be boring. As far as my testing methods they are very straight forward. I put all this up some years ago and also there is some information on my website. I am not going to post actual data on number of cuts and pounds force and all that since everyone who does this will get differnent numbers and I will spend time defending it all. I want to make knives and play with heat treating. Phil

I see no point referring to evidence which you never going to present.

To me there is not difference did you test or did not, because I do not see any results to make any conclusion about what you are saying.

And if we are talking about CPM S30V I am kind of cautioned - at 2003 I was already told many times by many experst and industry leaders that this is best of the best. Seven years later we saw this CATRA results:

CPM S30V - 541
CPM S60V - 1030

Which show same as what I have during my testing and also my testing shows that CPM S30V inferior to CTS-XHP and Dozier D2 and many other steel (even inferior to 420HC when CPM S30V is not heat treated by Buck).

Also there are complains from hunters about CPM S30V...

I just like to have bigger picture then reference to one man hunting experience and unknown test results which will never be provided.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[sodak]

I see no point referring to evidence which you never going to present.

To me there is not difference did you test or did not, because I do not see any results to make any conclusion about what you are saying.

[...]

I just like to have bigger picture then reference to one man hunting experience and unknown test results which will never be provided.

Thanks, Vassili.

I've never met Phil in person, but I have read enough of his opinions to have a lot of respect for him. He doesn't exaggerate or make wild claims, and his testing has corresponded pretty closely to mine in certain steels. Yes, I used to do a lot of testing years ago, and offered you the results, which you ignored.

But I digress.

While I don't accept anything on faith or reputation, I do believe that Phil sticks to the facts very well. If he has a lot of experience with a steel, I'll listen to him. I see no reason to demand results and then spend the next 3 years nitpicking him to death, which, I suspect, is exactly what you would like to do. I'm satisfied to get his conclusions, and, if they don't seem right, go off and do my own testing.

 

[Noctis3880]

And if we are talking about CPM S30V I am kind of cautioned - at 2003 I was already told many times by many experst and industry leaders that this is best of the best. Seven years later we saw this CATRA results:

CPM S30V - 541
CPM S60V - 1030

Who said this? No true expert would so quickly mouth off about a steel being the "best of the best". I'd like some evidence of this comment, which shouldn't be too much to ask from someone who criticizes others about not providing results.

 

[Gator97]

Who said this?

Nobody did. Do you really believe that "industry leaders" would bother to personally inform Vasilii about their openion regarding S30V or anything else? Not everyone is as nice as Sal is.

That's his MO. Confront the most knowledgeable/prominent figures in the industry, pretending to fight for the "truth" and stand up for the consumer(while calling the same consumers frauds and noobs), even though no consumer does what he does in his tests, ever... One way or another, gives him publicity. Occasionally costing him banning from the forums, but as far as I can see, there is no forum on the net where there is no conspiracy against him and his "truth".

 

[Buffalohump]

This is a fascinating thread, although I have long since forgotten what it was we were talking about..... ah yes, CTS-XHP.

Well, let's look at the market. Currently as far as I know this steel is only available in a sprint run Spyderco, the Manix 2. Although its not readily available its at least reasonably affordable. The other knife that uses the steel is the Hinderer XM-18, which is neither readily available nor affordable for most knife nuts.

There must be a reason for this. Obviously CTS-XHP is not going to replace S30V as the 'go to' steel for manufacturers/makers any time soon.

Surely its worth considering the whys and wherefores of this? Vassili seems to think its a conspiracy. I would imagine there are other factors at play. I would like to hear from manufacturers why we arent seeing more of these steels in knives that are affordable to us all.

On another note, Vassili, it would be nice if you could at least acknowledge the fact that it is ALWAYS Spyderco who embraces these exotic new steels first and makes them available to the general public at affordable prices.