Cts-xhp

Hello group,

Just for the record I like nozh2002, he challenges people and makes people think!

Thanks,

GP
 
nozh2002 said:
As you may learn from my test description I am not measuring force required to cut rope and so edge thickness does not matter (as well as many other factors I eliminated). I measure sharpness by cotton thread and it is thinner then any edge. So I thought this through five years ago and toke all that into account, so I can compare blade with different edge thickness, unlike you.

I would agree that in your test you may test not steel property but edge thickness. But this is not only factor which affect your results and make them random - I already mention that you cutting wooden base not only rope, and many other things.

I have several Doziers in my collection and they all have different edge thickness depends on model:

I have on my Doziers 3/64", 1/32", 1/32", 1/64"
and on Buck 110 - 1/32
and on Manix II CTS-XHP - 1/32"
and on BM710 M2 - 1/32"
and BM710 M390 - 1/64".

just measured it.

So as you may see this is not an issue, at least for my tests. BM710 M390 with 1/64" did not out cut Dozier KS7 with 3 times thicker edge as well as many other knives.

Thanks, Vassili.
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The thickness and blade grinds will always be a factor if you are cutting rope or anything else for that matter. There isn't any way to remove that factor unless you don't cut anything at all.

If you are testing blades with that big of a variance between them then you have answered your own questions you had before on why you aren't consistent.

It doesn't matter if you cut string at the end.... You are cutting rope to get the wear so thickness is a major variable that has to be addressed to improve consistency, the pressure cutting the rope will vary over 100% between the thicknesses you posted.

The Edges also have to be the same angle and finish and the testing media has to be verified when new media is bought, the only way to do that is cut with a known blade and a known result and getting the same result.

You are the one ranking the steels 1-50 etc, not me.

If you start testing the blades removing the thickness and edge angle variables as much as you can your end results will change dramatically and will become more consistant.
 
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I read through this thread and was surprised at how little discussion there was of actual experience with the steel. Does XHP give better edge retention, toughness and strength than D2, or is there a sacrifice somewhere? Have people used it much in the field?
I find it hard to compare steels from practical use in many cases. The "identical" steel can vary in properties from knife to knife from the same maker. I have a Fallkniven TK3 and U2. The core steel in the U2 is not anywhere near the same in edge holding as the steel in my TK3.
I have used lots of 440C in the kitchen and fishing. M2 is far better than the 440c in edge holding in the Kitchen, as is VG10. I can't tell the difference between my M2 knives (Gerbers) and my Sperderco VG10 in the kitchen, since both steels hold an edge for a really long time.
In fishing, I have not been happy with 440C - the steel seems to lose an edge far too quickly in cutting through bone and scales. I hope to get better performance from VG10 in this role. My 440C knives in the kitchen (Gerbers) seem to hold an edge about as well as some old high carbon steel knives that I have.
 
arty said:
I read through this thread and was surprised at how little discussion there was of actual experience with the steel. Does XHP give better edge retention, toughness and strength than D2, or is there a sacrifice somewhere? Have people used it much in the field?
I find it hard to compare steels from practical use in many cases. The "identical" steel can vary in properties from knife to knife from the same maker. I have a Fallkniven TK3 and U2. The core steel in the U2 is not anywhere near the same in edge holding as the steel in my TK3.
I have used lots of 440C in the kitchen and fishing. M2 is far better than the 440c in edge holding in the Kitchen, as is VG10. I can't tell the difference between my M2 knives (Gerbers) and my Sperderco VG10 in the kitchen, since both steels hold an edge for a really long time.
In fishing, I have not been happy with 440C - the steel seems to lose an edge far too quickly in cutting through bone and scales. I hope to get better performance from VG10 in this role. My 440C knives in the kitchen (Gerbers) seem to hold an edge about as well as some old high carbon steel knives that I have.
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There isn't enough blades out there to get a good database on that steel yet, the steel is still too new and hard to get.

That has been mentioned in this thread a few times.
 
arty said:
I read through this thread and was surprised at how little discussion there was of actual experience with the steel. Does XHP give better edge retention, toughness and strength than D2, or is there a sacrifice somewhere? Have people used it much in the field?
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I carried an XHP Manix 2 for almost 3 months, and used it for a fair amount of EDC and woods related tasks. It was a very nice stainless steel, but it did not behave like Vasili is swearing it should. It sharpened up easier than Spyderco's S30V, and seemed to hold that initial razor edge and the working edge for longer, but not by leaps and bounds. It was a pretty small difference when I was cutting maple branches and even for fishing tasks. Reminded me of ZDP as it felt fine grained and held a good edge, but easier to sharpen. In my "real world experience" I find that CPM-M4 performs better. Easier to sharpen, takes a crazy fine edge, holds that edge a lot longer in my uses, and seems to be tougher. I rolled part of the edge on my XHP Manix doing some very light prying while cleaning an ancient Winchester. The tip of my GB has been used lately to scrape some paint and poking around an old bathroom (even more light prying), with zero damage and no real change in sharpness. Very impressed.

Bottom line, there are a lot of nice steels out there. I think to cry, "conspiracy!" in regards to the knife industry is bordering on humorous. There's a lot to get you worked up in this world, but I don't think Spyderco or Kershaw's steel choices are evil in intent.
 
I think "super steels" are for "supermen". For a regular knife-nut like me, a well heat treated and well made knife in VG-10, 1095, 154CM, 440C and S30V will do just fine. If I need to cut for hours, any of the new super steels does well. Whether it's my Manix 2 in CTS-XHP, or my Gayle Bradley in CPM-M4; both these knives seem to cut forever.
Most of my "higher " end steels see rather less use. My most used steels are 1095, S30V and H-1.
 
The Mastiff said:
Vassili,

I was talking about one type of job falling under the umbrella topic of wear resistance and gave an example but you changed the subject, then tried to say you used more steels than I did. It's difficult keeping up a civil dialog under these circumstances. We're not in a contest of any sort, nor do you know what knives I have used at home for anything but one project with a carpet I posted about. Please try to stay on the subject and don't feel you need to defend your work. Your work is excellent, but it only covers a small area of one part of one of the big three knife steel attributes.

The fact is that the demands on a knife blade and steel are different cutting up old, dirty carpets from the demands in your testing, or your drywall and sprinkles cutting jobs.

One job ( carpet) needs one type of attribute from a steel, the next job calls for something completely different( measured weights cutting twine after dulling on half inch rope). These are still under the unbrella topic of wear resistance which is only one of the three attributes by which we gauge our steel needs. We could come up with other tests to explore even other aspects of "wear resistance" and probably eventually will.

Do you claim a crescent wrench is better than a screwdriver or are they just different tools for different jobs?

That's what steels are to me. S90V isn't my favorite steel, nor do I claim any kind of overall superiority for it other than with the quantifier that that knife was better at that particular job on that day.

Any other claims can't be proven. Not in the 40 years I've been collecting knives have I seen an argument proven about any steels superiority. The best we can hope for is a steel or knife being the best at any given task. The resources to do otherwise are beyond most of us.

I've seen pictures you've posted of this knife. It's a beautiful knife and it looks pretty comfortable to work with. I've never tried that steel, with it, and T1 being the only ones on your list I don't have personal experience with. Also, I currently don't own a 10V knife. I do have a couple not on your list from your testing webpage.

Vacuum Arc Remelting ( VAR) is also used on BG42, amongst other steels. It's not magic, but it does help get some of the impurities out. Some metals like Titanium have to be VAR'ed 2 or 3 times.

I believe Carpenter is going to produce a version of BG42 ( CTS B75 ?) that's been both VAR'ed, and using the powder process. BG42 normally is an ingot steel. It's one I'm looking forward to trying as it's extremely clean, but with the PM advantages.

I've always enjoyed BG42 though in general stainless steels aren't my favorites and hope this works out. Things are looking up for us steel junkies.

Regards, Joe/raleigh
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Well, you sad CPM S90V will be best for this kind of job. I asked if there is any evidence that this is not just theory. You provide you evidence saying that you tested it using four steel on house project. I think this experience you had is limited to this four steels and in my case for wider range of steels CPM S90V was not best so I have evidence that your theory has nothing to do with reality.

Where here any logical flaw?

You tested only four steel and make assumption that one is not only better then other three, but best of all. I tested way more steel and this one CPM S90V is not best at all, as well as other high wear resistant steel are not on the top.

Yes I am not doing steel chit-chat - I saw this many times and as you may see on this example, if we dig to the root of this conclusions we may see that base for that is not quite representative - you can not say CPM S90V will be better then any (or wear resistant steel will be better) if it is only better then three other you tested, especially when I tested quite more and do not see that at all.

This is why I do not accept bold statements - like "wear resistant steel will be better because of huge carbides content".

I am looking to - "wear resistant steel will be better because we used it so many times in carpet cutting side by side with many other steel and they outperformed any". Then we may suggest that this is may be due to huge carbides content.

Do you see difference? I hope I make my point more clear.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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gentlemen, my compliments to all for creating a better tone in this thread along the way. I do enjoy the discussion very much, it keeps everybody on their toes :thumbsup:
 
more tests, especially different types is the best way to get the overall picture of a steels performance. keep up the good work everyone and lets hope we see more of these high-end steels being offered (so we can all test them ;)).
 
jimnolimit said:
more tests, especially different types is the best way to get the overall picture of a steels performance. keep up the good work everyone and lets hope we see more of these high-end steels being offered (so we can all test them ;)).
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I will be updating my list, adding a lot more steels shortly.
 
Ankerson said:
As long as they are within specs I won't, something different and I will.
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i like the fact that you are keeping company names and even the actual amount of cuts "secret" and just categorizing steels that perform similarly. if you released all the info, the pissing contest would overshadow the tests.
 
Ankerson said:
As long as they are within specs I won't, something different and I will.
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The reasons I ask are that different blades may affect comparisons, and different manufacturers run blades at different Rc levels...but you know that all better than I do... :D
 
nozh2002 said:
...You provide you evidence saying that you tested it using four steel on house project. I think this experience you had is limited to this four steels and in my case for wider range of steels CPM S90V was not best so I have evidence that your theory has nothing to do with reality.

Where here any logical flaw?
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Like where your test is limited to push cutting the manila rope of one type, which is very unrelated to the job he described, so I am not quite sure how do you make conclusion that you have ANY evidence related to what Mastiff said.

nozh2002 said:
...I tested way more steel and this one CPM S90V is not best at all
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Well, yeah, if you test with different sharpness, and edge thickness few times wider than competitor, no wonder...

nozh2002 said:
(Vaccum Arc Remelting, Electro Slug Remelting and other Russian metallurgical magic)
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Marvelous :) Quick fact check - neither VAR, nor ESR are "Russian" inventions. And, while ESR was developed in USSR, it was in Ukraine, 1952, by O. Paton, not in Russia.
Considering that you never miss a chance to assign blame to all other nations(except Russians), for all the bad things in USSR, don't be so indiscriminate now, stick to the facts.
 
Well, you sad CPM S90V will be best for this kind of job. I asked if there is any evidence that this is not just theory. You provide you evidence saying that you tested it using four steel on house project. I think this experience you had is limited to this four steels and in my case for wider range of steels CPM S90V was not best so I have evidence that your theory has nothing to do with reality.

Where here any logical flaw?
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Well, It's not a theory. It's my experiences cutting carpet which you admit you haven't even done. Where are you going with this? It's not a logical or even rational tack.

I don't have any theories or favorite steels. We have nothing to really argue about or claim fault about. I like your tests and have only stated that there are indeed other types of tests that can be done. Not better tests, just different. You are being defensive with me when I'm not attacking you or the work you do.

Joe
 
GerroldP said:
Hello group,

Just for the record I like nozh2002, he challenges people and makes people think!

Thanks,

GP
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I could say the same of Young Earth Creationists and people who think the Earth is the center of the universe and that everything revolves around it:thumbup:.
 
The Mastiff said:
Well, It's not a theory. It's my experiences cutting carpet which you admit you haven't even done. Where are you going with this? It's not a logical or even rational tack.
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Sure you did cutting carpet. But key point is you use only four different steel best one of them was CPM S90V.

Correct statement would be, from CPM S90V, BG-42, VG-10 and generic D2 best one to cut carpet - CPM S90V. This is not theory but practical results of this test, which I admit with great pleasure same as my test results.

Now saying that CPM S90V will be better then any other steel based on this limited experience with only four steels, even if we talking in particular about old dirty carpet cutting is just another theory, bet, if you like, which has no practical proves.

What is wrong with logic here?

Did you know about someone who did this?

From my side, based on my testing and work use, I may very well bet that CPM S90V will not be best on old dirty carpet cutting, because it is not best at many other similar works - like drywall cutting, etc... when much more then four steels tested side by side.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
jimnolimit said:
i like the fact that you are keeping company names and even the actual amount of cuts "secret" and just categorizing steels that perform similarly. if you released all the info, the pissing contest would overshadow the tests.
Click to expand...

JNewell said:
The reasons I ask are that different blades may affect comparisons, and different manufacturers run blades at different Rc levels...but you know that all better than I do... :D
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Releasing raw data is the devils playground. ;)
 
Ankerson said:
Releasing raw data is the devils playground. ;)
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I think if raw CATRA results for CPM S60V and CPM S30V was published at time before "replacement" happen nobody toke that seriously. At least I would not buy it for same price as CPM S60V and would not accept it as replacement.

Here CATRA results I am talking about (from Oct 2010 Knife Illustrated):

CPM S30V - 541
CPM S60V - 1030
CPM S90V - 1014

Compare that to this:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=368828
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
CPM S30V - ...The newest stainless steel from Crucible, purpose-designed as a
cutlery steel. This steel gives A-2-class toughness and almost-S90V
class wear resistance, at reasonable hardness (~59-60 Rc)...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course consumer should not know raw test results - otherwise they may start having wrong ideas... After all it costs $2 per lb...

So... I understand why knife industry hiding test data from customers, but seeing same approach from independent tester? At least I show everything. I wold imaging hiding what I am doing if I would do some knife commercial, some cutting show to promote one or other steel, but in edge retention testing business I think all data need to be disclosed.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
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