Cts-xhp

nozh2002 said:
Sure this is why marketing department is so important - they can sell anything!

Funny, but I heard similar ideas about that regular people should not be involved in decision making or rather excluded because they do not know everything and can not understand complexity etc... It was on on Marks-Lenin Phylosophy, PolitEconomy and Scientific Communism - mandatory classes for University education in USSR. Seems like Russians did not agreed finally and put those experts aside, now Russia is booming and already surpass USSR power, after total collapse, I should mention.

Of course commies were not good sales reps. Did not learn well public relation and marketing in their Communist Academy. They did bad job selling this ideas...

Again I think everybody would be able to see difference between those to numbers from CATRA edge retention test:

CPM S30V - 541
CPM S60V - 1030

I do not think that it will be too many people who will agree that CPM S30V will be better deal then CPM S60V especially for same price (I am not talking about $2 per lib Crucible ask for that steel).

Thanks, Vassili.
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seriously? we're not talking about politics or ways of life, we're talking about knife steel. the simple fact is that most people see a grade of steel as equal across the board. very few people know about or care about all the factors involved in the performance of a steel. they see a test and it says (for example) CTS-XHP cuts 40% more manila rope than ZDP-189. they end up forming an opinion that CTS-XHP is 40% better than ZDP-189. what they won't take into account is all the factors that added up to that test result. this leads to people being misinformed, which is counter productive. it's easier and more practical for people to associate one steel they have with one they want if both cut in a "similar" range. everyone's own personal knife use will differ and so will their cutting performance.

CATRA is not the final say on which steel is better, it's just one specific test. just because s60v did better than s30v on a single CATRA test, doesn't mean all people will have that experience. different companies heat treat to different levels and set the blade geometry/edge angles up differently. so very few people will be actually cutting silica impregnated cards with their knives, all with the same geometry and edge angle and heat treated to a specific level. this is why raw data is counter productive.

i would love to have all the raw data because i can actually see it for what it's worth (just pieces of a puzzle), but posting it openly is irresponsible.
 
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I remember at one time, I encountered THE BEST STEEL EVER MADE. It seemed to be pretty popular here on blade forums. And if Vassili had tested this steel, I bet it would outperform all these super steels by at least %60-%80.
The steel was called Rusta-frei or something like that. =)
 
Based on some comments I recall Sal offering, the simple reason for lack of knives in this steel right now is availability. Carpenter ran off one lot, which got used in the existing knives. The second batch had a manufacturing problem and was not usable. I believe they addressed that problem and have more coming. Until knifemakers can buy it, there won't be more blades with CTS-XHP.

Buffalohump said:
This is a fascinating thread, although I have long since forgotten what it was we were talking about..... ah yes, CTS-XHP.

Well, let's look at the market. Currently as far as I know this steel is only available in a sprint run Spyderco, the Manix 2. Although its not readily available its at least reasonably affordable. The other knife that uses the steel is the Hinderer XM-18, which is neither readily available nor affordable for most knife nuts.

There must be a reason for this. Obviously CTS-XHP is not going to replace S30V as the 'go to' steel for manufacturers/makers any time soon.

Surely its worth considering the whys and wherefores of this? Vassili seems to think its a conspiracy. I would imagine there are other factors at play. I would like to hear from manufacturers why we arent seeing more of these steels in knives that are affordable to us all.

On another note, Vassili, it would be nice if you could at least acknowledge the fact that it is ALWAYS Spyderco who embraces these exotic new steels first and makes them available to the general public at affordable prices.
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Sounds good. Although I would imagine it will be another sprint run. Those are becoming quite tricky to land, especially if an exotic steel is employed.

JNewell said:
Based on some comments I recall Sal offering, the simple reason for lack of knives in this steel right now is availability. Carpenter ran off one lot, which got used in the existing knives. The second batch had a manufacturing problem and was not usable. I believe they addressed that problem and have more coming. Until knifemakers can buy it, there won't be more blades with CTS-XHP.
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Buffalohump said:
Sounds good. Although I would imagine it will be another sprint run. Those are becoming quite tricky to land, especially if an exotic steel is employed.
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Spyderco has a Sprint run Military Scheduled in XHP.
 
Buffalohump said:
I saw that Jim. I think its pretty much spoken for already.... I'm afraid the word is OUT when it comes to these Spydie sprints... :(
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I was just saying Mark. :D

I got one on preorder, but I the one I am really looking forward to is the Para 2 in CTS-20CP.

I am still neutral on XHP, only tested one blade and that was a Manix 2 so I really can't say much about it other than it did well and XHP is an agressive cutter.

I would need a few more blades to test so I could really give it a good workout to see what it can really do, until then I don't really know.

With M390 and ELMAX I can really talk about those as I have tested both Customs and Production blades so I can hang my hat on what I say about them.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nozh2002
And if we are talking about CPM S30V I am kind of cautioned - at 2003 I was already told many times by many experst and industry leaders that this is best of the best. Seven years later we saw this CATRA results:

CPM S30V - 541
CPM S60V - 1030
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Noctis3880 said:
Who said this? No true expert would so quickly mouth off about a steel being the "best of the best". I'd like some evidence of this comment, which shouldn't be too much to ask from someone who criticizes others about not providing results.
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I'm fairly sure you don't have the ears of the industry leaders in steel production or knife manufacturing for that matter. You drop names and post the weirdest stuff.

Hunters also call or email you regarding their disdain for S30V steel. You've finally strained my ability to take you seriously. "Hey, I just had a hell of a time preparing the Elk I took last week, I had to re-sharpen that lousy S30V folder 2 times just to get the job done."

You make S30V sound like garbage and IMOHO it is a very good steel - but that's in real life experience, not hunkered down in my man cave with a 1/2 mile of rope chopping it to shreds and writing down all of my impressions.

Life is too short. Find a couple of steels/knives you like and go out and use them.
 
From Vasili
Again I think everybody would be able to see difference between those to numbers from CATRA edge retention test:

CPM S30V - 541
CPM S60V - 1030

Vasili, Like you I can't really evlauate this particular CATRA test with out the raw data. I will say this though: It looks like S60V is at a very high hardness here, probably at least 62. Would this blade be a good sample to actually use in the field? If it is that hard it will not be very ductile. The S30v test blade was probably around 58, again a guess based on my testing opinion. My point is that unless each steel is at its' best hardness range that it is just raw data. Does this make CPM S30v a poor steel? Not in my book. I have used many S-30V blades in the field, mostly fillet knives and if heat treated correctly is is very wear resistant and ductile, will flex nicely and has no problem at all with corrosion resistance even in salt water. As far as history, S30V was not developed to replace S60. S90V was intended for that job. S30V was developed to be a sort of an in between to offer some Vanadium carbide content and be easier to heat treat and finish than either 60V or 90V.

Sodak, thanks for the kind words. Phil

I do not think that it will be too many people who will agree that CPM S30V will be better deal then CPM S60V especially for same price (I am not talking about $2 per lib Crucible ask for that steel).
 
The two steels that are very hot in the marketplace right now but don't seem to produce results that correlate to the extreme hype that they get are (and I am putting on my Nomex as I type) S35VN and CTS-XHP. Great steels, but not replacements for the first or even second tier in your results.

Ankerson said:
I was just saying Mark. :D

I got one on preorder, but I the one I am really looking forward to is the Para 2 in CTS-20CP.

I am still neutral on XHP, only tested one blade and that was a Manix 2 so I really can't say much about it other than it did well and XHP is an agressive cutter.

I would need a few more blades to test so I could really give it a good workout to see what it can really do, until then I don't really know.

With M390 and ELMAX I can really talk about those as I have tested both Customs and Production blades so I can hang my hat on what I say about them.
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JNewell said:
The two steels that are very hot in the marketplace right now but don't seem to produce results that correlate to the extreme hype that they get are (and I am putting on my Nomex as I type) S35VN and CTS-XHP. Great steels, but not replacements for the first or even second tier in your results.
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I saw one blade in S35VN and it seemed to do fine, but I haven't had the chance to test one on rope yet so I really can't say. From the sheet it looks like it should perform around were S30V does given the same HT and hardness.
 
Buffalohump said:
This is a fascinating thread, although I have long since forgotten what it was we were talking about..... ah yes, CTS-XHP.

Well, let's look at the market. Currently as far as I know this steel is only available in a sprint run Spyderco, the Manix 2. Although its not readily available its at least reasonably affordable. The other knife that uses the steel is the Hinderer XM-18, which is neither readily available nor affordable for most knife nuts.

There must be a reason for this. Obviously CTS-XHP is not going to replace S30V as the 'go to' steel for manufacturers/makers any time soon.

Surely its worth considering the whys and wherefores of this? Vassili seems to think its a conspiracy. I would imagine there are other factors at play. I would like to hear from manufacturers why we arent seeing more of these steels in knives that are affordable to us all.

On another note, Vassili, it would be nice if you could at least acknowledge the fact that it is ALWAYS Spyderco who embraces these exotic new steels first and makes them available to the general public at affordable prices.
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Conspiracy? Common. You have list price $2lb you have several times less wear resistance (see Crucible data sheets) - much less cost of grinding, and same final price.

What concpiracy are you talking about? This is just business. Every commercial enterprise committed to shareholders to make profit - they are obligated to do as much money as they can.

So no conspiracy here. As a consumer I just trying to get clear picture on product value.

Of course there is some reason for industry not to go with CTS-HXP. It may be stock filled with different steel they can not just send back to manufacturer or some contract obligations for some years to come or no special deal or pure love to European Import. Who knows? They do not want to tell as this reason - this is for sure.

However Hinderer seems to not having those reasons.

Spyderco also manage even to get special run of average CTS-BD1 steel. So I do not think it is Crucible not being responsive.

Thanks, Vassili.

BTW, It is not only Spyderco who bring new steels - it is Kershaw for sure and some other as well.
 
Maybe that's the trick, get the CTS-XHP from Crucible.

nozh2002 said:
Conspiracy? Common. You have list price $2lb you have several times less wear resistance (see Crucible data sheets) - much less cost of grinding, and same final price.

What concpiracy are you talking about? This is just business. Every commercial enterprise committed to shareholders to make profit - they are obligated to do as much money as they can.

So no conspiracy here. As a consumer I just trying to get clear picture on product value.

Of course there is some reason for industry not to go with CTS-HXP. It may be stock filled with different steel they can not just send back to manufacturer or some contract obligations for some years to come or no special deal or pure love to European Import. Who knows? They do not want to tell as this reason - this is for sure.

However Hinderer seems to not having those reasons.

Spyderco also manage even to get special run of average CTS-BD1 steel. So I do not think it is Crucible not being responsive.

Thanks, Vassili.

BTW, It is not only Spyderco who bring new steels - it is Kershaw for sure and some other as well.
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Just got my 0551 can't wait to put it to work if what you guys say is true (similar if not better then xhp) have a para in 20cp on preorder ,think it might be new fav ,if hype is real
 
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