Custom Knife Collectors Association – Any in

[Kevin Jones]

I'm in.

You guys are covering a lot of possibles and I know you will work it out.

I personally think the association needs to foster good will and support for both schools of knifemaking thought. It can only help to create a larger pool of interest and the crossover would be good for Forged knives as well as Stock Removal. Subgroups will naturally manifest themselves, but still be covered by the "umbrella" that Peter mentioned.

Also, I think you have to ask yourselves how other established entities might best recieve this new association? In my mind, groups like SCI, NRA, etc. would view the new Knife Collector's Association as an ally in spirit, even if the exact purpose is geared for collecting. I believe there should be more Co-Operative efforts between the major sporting related groups. Each of the major sporting groups already has a magazine, does advertising and recruiting, etc. Could SCI or NRA or Blade Magazine form a cooperative to trade add space to help cross pollinate and create new members? Imagine how this would help the new Collector's Association.

Lin

That's good stuff Lin. We are getting into the meat of it now......

 

[Keith Montgomery]

So that's my 2 cents, now let's get back to productive discussion. :thumbup:

All input that leads to making the best decisions about how to go forward is productive discussion.

The amount of work that it will take to make this a successful organization depends more on what it's goals will be, and what functions and services it will provide, than on what categories of knives will be included in its charter.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Thanks you so much Roger P. Once again a personal attack from you. The thread title was Custom Knife collectors association. Not Forged knife collectors asst. If I had entered a thread and said that all collectors forged knives should be excluded, you (IF Honest with yourself ) would have been very insulted. Say it isn't so! What I have said isn't bull shit as you so eloquently put it. I have no reason to lie to you, How dare you say so! There is no excuse for such rudeness.

Most collectors collect a variety of types of knives. To exclude any and all collectors except one type, excludes almost every one. How elitist. And yes. Down right arrogant. Especially if you really knew the history of the Custom hand make knife in this country.

Roger I would never have the disrespect to call you a liar, or what you said was bill shit. Excuse me people. Rogers words not mine. This discussion I thought was for an exchange of ideas. Not to attack some one personally. . That is twice now. Lets not make it a third. if you will only read the rest of the post here, with an open mind, I think you will see that I am by no means alone here in why I feel the exclusions shouldn't take place.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Thanks you so much Roger P. Once again a personal attack from you. The thread title was Custom Knife collectors association. Not Forged knife collectors asst. If I had entered a thread and said that all collectors forged knives should be excluded, you (IF Honest with yourself ) would have been very insulted. Say it isn't so! What I have said isn't bull shit as you so eloquently put it. I have no reason to lie to you, How dare you say so! There is no excuse for such rudeness.

Most collectors collect a variety of types of knives. To exclude any and all collectors except one type, excludes almost every one. How elitist. And yes. Down right arrogant. Especially if you really knew the history of the Custom hand make knife in this country.

Roger I would never have the disrespect to call you a liar, or what you said was bill shit. Excuse me people. Rogers words not mine. This discussion I thought was for an exchange of ideas. Not to attack some one personally. . That is twice now. Lets not make it a third. if you will only read the rest of the post here, with an open mind, I think you will see that I am by no means alone here in why I feel the exclusions shouldn't take place.

Now Mike, you initially posted on this thread with a chip on your shoulder.

Show me anywhere in this tread where someone has said or implied that anyone; collector, maker or dealer would be excluded for any reason.

Regardless of if WE decide to focus on sectors or ALL custom knives in general, it's about benefiting ALL collectors and makers....... Period

Lets get back to the subject at hand as we have work to do.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Hey Kevin. May i suggest that you read it from the beginning again. I am not the only one who got ruffeled feathers from it. Mike

 

[Kevin Jones]

Hey Kevin. May i suggest that you read it from the beginning again. I am not the only one who got ruffeled feathers from it. Mike

Mike, until your initial post we were having good open productive discussion.

Not everyone in agreement; True

Ruffled feathers; I don't see it that way.

My only agenda here is to be successful. This is a win/win situation for everyone if we get it right.

Your help is appreciated here. Let's move on.

 

[Michael Lovett]

Excuse me? The insults started with post 11. You will notice that more than one came back agreeing with what I am trying to say.

How do you exclude any type of makers knives that are hand made. if it is a knife collectors asst. you can't. If it is a private club, that is another thing all together. Several have suggested that tactical knives be not accepted. What is a tactical knife? A forged short bowie certainly is. A Big Bear is A chute Knife is the original Tactical Knife. Regardless of how it was made. A forged Chute Knife is still a tactical knife. Again is being forgotten that MOST collectors collect many different types of knives. Does the new asst. exclude them. Or just some of their knives. A.G Russell, an man that knows more than any man here about such things already stated that it was this very kind of thinking that has ruined the Guild. How easily we forget that the Guild was the pinnacle of the Knife World for many years. If this kind of thinking could ruin the Guild. What will it accomplish for a new fledgling organization to start in the same spirit that has taken such a toll on the Guild?

Should other exclusions be make. Only people that think in exactly the same way be allowed to belong. How about Race? Religion? Creed? Is this to be a Knife collectors asst. as originally stated, or a private elitist club.

Chip on my shoulder? I have seen more than one fine organization go down the tubes with such thinking. Not just the guild. And yes, post 11 and a few others that followed, I find insulting. As will many very well respected makers. We are having a hard enough time in the weapons world. I worked for several years with the friends of the NRA. And engaged in several public debates around Texas when Texas was trying to pass the Carry laws. The same people that were and still are trying to take away all Americans rights to own firearms, are also looking at ways to disarm the public of all Knives as well. We don't need division in our ranks. We need cooperation of every last person we have. Chip on my shoulder? YOU BET! This kind of thinking burns me up, and even though you may not think of it. It puts us all at risk of eventually loosing the hobby we all love.

Let's encourage everyone to pull together. Not try and think of ways to exclude those we think inferior just because they like something a little different than we do. Perhaps it is we who are inferior. But possibly, just possibly, what we all love is a well made hand made knife.

If I have ticked off a few here, so be it. If I have made even one person think for a minute, it is well worth it. Mike

 

[RogerP]

Wow, Mike - you seem to be trying to set new records for revisionist history and multiple errors in a a single post.

First of all - here is how the discussion started, from Kevin's first post:

Most all of the discussion has been towards creating a forged blade collectors association in that most participants in these discussions have been forged blade collectors.
The purpose of this thread is just to get feedback, create open dialog and see if enough interest exist to move on to the next steps. No official charter has been discussed; however I have some ideas as to what in my opinion a collectors association’s purpose and goals may be.

ALL collectors, makers and dealers opinions, views and comments are of course welcome.

See, for future reference, it helps to read past the title and absorb the actual content.

Second, to aswer your question, if people got together and said they wanted to form a folder collectors' association, I would say more power to them - go for it! While we're into honest introspection Mike, if some of the prominent collectors of Lovless knives (and prominent makers who produce knives in the Loveless style) wanted to form a collectors association based on those knives, would you be barging in decrying their efforts as arrogant? Hmmmm? Honestly, now Mike? More likely you'd be launching a less than subtle campaign for the presidency. Please take this opportunity to get off your high horse.

Third. I acknowledged at the very outset of my post that many valid points have been made in support of including knives of all types (see, there you go again reading only the parts you want to read). Here, let me help you out:

Many valid points have been made in favor of including knives of all kinds - your assertion that a forged-blade collectors association would be "arrogant" is not one of them.

My point was - and is - that your assertion that ANY collectors association which focussed on ONE type of knife was arrogant, is simply nonsense.

Fourth. Called you a liar? My posts in this thread have not been edited Mike - please show me where I called you a liar? Take all the time you need. Really.

I DID say that your characterization of the forums as forged-blade exclusive (which you oh so conveniently placed in the mouths of un-named "dealers and collectors") was BS. It was. The smelly kind. I challenged you before to provide a single example of the discussion of stock-removal being excluded from the custom knife forum. That challenge (unsurprisingly) remains un-answered. Instead you want to play the wounded martyr. That's fine - just don't expect me to buy it.

Fifth - equating a preference for a certain type of knife with racial or religious persecution may be the most asinine thing I have ever seen posted on the forums. Congrats, champ.

Sixth - I decided to pass completely on your little dig about damascus having its origins as a means of disguising bad grind lines and "only recently" coming into its own as an art form. That's just too obvious and too easy.

Roger

 

[DaveH]

I think the idea of a knife collecting organization is a good one. I think making it a forged fixed blade only organization is dead wrong, that's exactly the mistake that the other organization made a few posts down.

Make a general organization then have special interest groups like fixed, folders, etc. that can manage the actions or content in their area.

ANyone can be a member, makers, dealers, buyers, anyone.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I think the idea of a knife collecting organization is a good one. I think making it a forged fixed blade only organization is dead wrong, that's exactly the mistake that the other organization made a few posts down.

Make a general organization then have special interest groups like fixed, folders, etc. that can manage the actions or content in their area.

ANyone can be a member, makers, dealers, buyers, anyone.

Dave, what organization (a few post down) are you referring too?

As I have said, I'm not trying to exclude anyone, just lay the ground work for a successful association.

No matter whether referring to a corporate team, sports team, military platoon, construction crew or knife association in order to be successful there needs to focus and everyone moving in the same direction especially in initial start-up and development.

Having splinter groups (forged, stock removal, tactical) under an umbrella association could cause complicity and conflict. It could be kiss of death for a new association.
That's my only concern.

I vote for simplicity not complexity.

 

[North]

I vote for simplicity not complexity.

Me too!

Bill

 

[RogerP]

Should other exclusions be make. Only people that think in exactly the same way be allowed to belong. How about Race? Religion? Creed? Is this to be a Knife collectors asst. as originally stated, or a private elitist club.

Hey Lovett,

Ever heard of the Antique Bowie Knife Association? You can find them here:

http://www.antiquebowieknife.com/

Know what their focus is? Can you guess from the title? If not, let me help you out:

"The Antique Bowie Knife Association of America was formed April 5, 1975 by 19 collectors who enjoyed sharing their passion for Antique Bowie Knives. The name was changed a short time later to "Antique Bowie Knife Association". Since then, the ABKA has grown into a world-wide organization that is "Dedicated to the collecting, study, and preservation of Antique Bowie Knives". "

Now, I know you will want to get on the horn PRONTO to these ARROGANT JERKS who have the temerity to EXCLUDE from their collector's association ALL CONTEMPORARY KNIVES (that aren't reproductions of antique bowies). I mean, the NERVE of these guys! Who do they think they are?

Be sure to tell them also that they are on the path to religious and racial persecution. Lemme know what they say.

A forged blade collectors' association is neither arrogant nor elitist.

A folder collectors' association is neither arrogant nor elitist.

A hunter collectors' association is neitehr arrogannt nor elitist.

A Loveless knives collectors' association is neither arrogant nor elitist.

A dagger collectors' association is neither arrogant nor elitist.

A tactitcal knives collectors' association is neither arrogant nor elitist.

An antique bowie collectors' association is neither arrogant nor elitist.

A Japanese sword collectors' association in neither arrogant nor elitist.

Shall I go on, or do you finally get the point?

There is nothing inherently "wrong" with a collectors' association based on one type of knife. Are there pros and cons to as specific focus versus "all in"? You bet. But to repeatedly suggest that any focus on one type of knife is "arrogant", well, that IS inherently wrong. And to equate such a focus with religious and racial prejudice is laughably stupid.

Roger

 

[DaveH]

The organization I'm referring to is ABS. ABS seems to be defacto fixed forged blade organization.

I would imagine custom stock removal and custom folders are equal to if not greater then forged fixed collectors. Why exclude them?

Edit to say after reading you post, there's nothing inherently wrong with making specific collectors group, it just a waste of time for constant wheel invention AND it limits the resources and possibly even survival of the organization when the group is too focussed.

 

[RogerP]

The organization I'm referring to is ABS. ABS seems to be defacto fixed forged blade organization.

I would imagine custom stock removal and custom folders are equal to if not greater then forged fixed collectors. Why exclude them?

Edit to say after reading you post, there's nothing inherently wrong with making specific collectors group, it just a waste of time for constant wheel invention AND it limits the resources and possibly even survival of the organization when the group is too focussed.

Dave, the ABS mission statement is as follows:

"The American Bladesmith Society, Inc. pledges to diligently, reasonably and responsibly work exclusively for the purposes of promoting and advancing the art and science of the forged blade and other implements. And also to inform and educate the public in respect to bladesmithing, metal forging and heat treating processes, knife and tool design and fabrication, related arts and other areas in which the Society has expertise."

While collectors are welcome to join, it is manifestly NOT a collectors' association.

Roger

 

[Don Hanson III]

The organization I'm referring to is ABS. ABS seems to be defacto fixed forged blade organization.

I would imagine custom stock removal and custom folders are equal to if not greater then forged fixed collectors. Why exclude them?

Edit to say after reading you post, there's nothing inherently wrong with making specific collectors group, it just a waste of time for constant wheel invention AND it limits the resources and possibly even survival of the organization when the group is too focussed.

When I was a 'folder only' maker, it bothered me that the ABS was just interested in fixed blades. But I woke up one day and realized, the ABS IS a Forged Fixed Blade Organization and a very Successful one at that.

I don't see this as "a mistake the ABS has made".....It just is what it is.

That ABS has a few issues but focusing on forged fixed blades only is not one of them.

 

[DaveH]

My point in a nutshell is that ABS is exclusionary to its detriment. My question is why would make a new organization exclusionary to begin with? What purpose does being exclusionary serve exactly?

 

[RogerP]

When I was a 'folder only' maker, it bothered me that the ABS was just interested in fixed blades. But I woke up one day and realized, the ABS IS a Forged Fixed Blade Organization and a very Successful one at that.

I don't see this as "a mistake the ABS has made".....It just is what it is.

That ABS has a few issues but focusing on forged fixed blades only is not one of them.

Agreed on all points, Don.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

My point in a nutshell is that ABS is exclusionary to its detriment. My question is why would make a new organization exclusionary to begin with? What purpose does being exclusionary serve exactly?

I don't want to get too far off topic, but I struggle to see how the ABS has been "exclusionary to its detriment". Their focus on the forged blade is the reason for their existence. I'll leave it at that.

Roger

 

[jdm61]

I am a forged fixed blade guy, as are a number of the collectors here. With that said, I agrre with those who suggest that we should be talkin about an organization that is inlcusive. Once said organization is established, then folks can concentrate on the praticular type of knives that they like. As with any organization of this type today, there will be a website and probably some kind of forum. Perhaps the best thng would be to have different sub-forums for each interest group in addition to a geeral subforum where the common interests of the entire group can be discussed. Knwing the personalities of a number of the collectors on here, maybe a seperate sub-forum similar to the Pirates Cove would be in order where folks can vent...lol Ultimately, the suggested show would be a noble goal. As there are already show desinged to bring smiths. art knife makers. etc and well healed collectors together, a more inclusive show might be better. I kind of agree with Mr. Russell that this show could possibly fill a niche that another large show used to fill and at the same time, create its own niche in that the communication between the makers and customers outside of the show and would be better.

 

[ptgdvc]

GEEZZ!!!

I have changed my mind. I am now in favor of optimal exclusive elitism.

I am founding the North American Modern Damascus and Carbon Steel Bowie & Fighter Association of Bronxville, New York.

Or NAMDACSBAFAOBNY for short.

The voting membership is permanently limited to ONE member (ME). Unlimited associate memberships are available for $100 per annum. Twenty charter lifetime associate memberships are available for $500 each. There will be NO formal meetings, shows, newletters, websites or obligations, whatsoever. I accept PayPal.

P