Custom Knife Collectors Association – Any in

[Kevin Jones]

I went back and edited post #112 to include dealer participation and membership as most are collectors and perhaps many the ultimate collectors.

 

[Dickiedog]

When I was a 'folder only' maker, it bothered me that the ABS was just interested in fixed blades. But I woke up one day and realized, the ABS IS a Forged Fixed Blade Organization and a very Successful one at that.

I don't see this as "a mistake the ABS has made".....It just is what it is.

That ABS has a few issues but focusing on forged fixed blades only is not one of them.

i can't understand why you guys think the Abs is stricly fixed blades when thay have two to three folder classes at the school a year. i took one under Mel Pardue several years ago, and you can submit more than one folder for Mastersmith i think.

 

[jdm61]

Kevin......one of the points that I found interesting in your list was the establishment of a grading system. Were you thinking along the lines of the one that has been used for fireartms for a long time? The only problem that I would have would be that my current knives (and ones made in the foreseeable future for that matter) won't make the 100% grade even when new.....so i am at a disadvantage

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin......one of the points that I found interesting in your list was the establishment of a grading system. Were you thinking along the lines of the one that has been used for fireartms for a long time? The only problem that I would have would be that my current knives (and ones made in the foreseeable future for that matter) won't make the 100% grade even when new.....so i am at a disadvantage

Sure Joe, as it's definitely needed and we have the talent to create it.

As Jerry said these things won't happen overnight, however are very doable.

Any suggestions, ideas?

 

[jdm61]

I think that this is a very good idea because it might very well be the first organization that puts makers, collectors, dealers and even occasional collectible/user knife buyers and those who don't fall into any of these categories, but are interested in the same room on the same footing so to speak. As for the forged vs. stock removal discussion, the people who have intitated this discussion tend to like forged blades. The the truth of the matter is that those who sign up will bring their own preferences to the table, whihc is a good thing We can have one big organization with a lot of different conversations going on at the same time.

 

[Don Hanson III]

i can't understand why you guys think the Abs is stricly fixed blades when thay have two to three folder classes at the school a year. i took one under Mel Pardue several years ago, and you can submit more than one folder for Mastersmith i think.

You are right, Dickie. I probably didn't say that right. As a 'folder only' maker (from 95 to 03), I could not go for a JS or MS stamp without making the required fixed blades.

I had to learn to make fixed blades all over again in 04 You can submit two folders for JS and two for MS.

The ABS's main focus is on fixed blades and folders are tolerated. You will never see a folder win the Peck or BR Hughes award.

My point (in response to "a mistake the ABS has made") is that, the ABS is a successful forged blade organization.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

A question that has come to mind from reading this thread is, was it started as a way to get ideas on how this association is going to work, or to get ideas on how to fine tune things that have already been decided on?

 

[Kevin Jones]

A question that has come to mind from reading this thread is, was it started as a way to get ideas on how this association is going to work, or to get ideas on how to fine tune things that have already been decided on?

Keith, there has been ideas discussed prior to this thread however nothing totally decided upon including the forged vs ALL knives issue.

So the answer to your question is everything is up for discussion. I'm looking for ideas, however seems we have gotten booged down on this "forged vs stock removal" thing. IMO, we have much more important things to focus on.

For example, what do we want to accomplish as an association, how to accomplish it, who is going to help to accomplish it and how are we going to finance it.

It will take much participation and support from members to make this happen. I'm please you volunteered to help as you strike me as a "get it done" type.

ALL, please feel free challenge and/or add to my items in post #112.

 

[Stephen F]

Kevin/Guys,

If you walk into a restaurant you are presented with a menu, you choose from that menu what you would like to eat from the choices provided. In extreme cases you may leave as the menu is not suitable. But usually you have scoped the menu or been there before and know there is somthing there that you like, all you have to do is choose from a predefined list.

Now lets suppose a group of us walk into an Asian or Fusion restuarant with the decision to order one of the Set meals for 8, with 5 dishes per course. The restaurant tells us there is no menu and we have to decide between us what we want ....... and we can choose anything our hearts desire ....... as long as we all agree .... can you imagine the discussion, and how long it take, and some people will get hacked off because their favourite meal was not included. But put a menu of 5 set meal choices infront of the same group and within 5-10 mins you have a choice (perhaps with an amendment or two) and everyone enjoys a fine meal with good company.

This Discussion needs a Menu.

To get the menu, which should cover:

Scope
Size
Vision
Future options
Governance
Activities and membership
.....probably a few others.

You need a group of 8 or 10 core members to put together the menu.That team would work on majority vote with the exception of some possible predefined legal/fiscal issues which require unanimous decision.

That initial group should comprise 1 or 2 makers plus collectors (the forum could run nominations and vote if too many volunteer ... which I doubt having seen the commitment required first hand with the BFB). The collectors should represent all areas if possible.

This boards "menu" when presented ,could be voted on by a preliminary membership on the Forum. eg choice 1, 2 or 3....... the board decides on the choices, the members on the best fit for them. Majority rules.

From there the board can draw up the formal framework and membership process.

In essence this is how the BFB (which as been referenced) worked .... but there was only one member of the design board who decided on the choices presented, (hence the need for rules in this initial board) ..... BUT the membership voted best choice for them ...... and the result was pretty terrific IMHO!

....... back to my dark, damp, room!

Stephen

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Here's a few ideas as to what a collector's association may accomplish. Please give comments and add as you see fit.

• To increase awareness and acceptance of custom knives and the collecting of such as a respected and appreciated art form.

I think this is good.

• To create a worldwide united and organized group of custom knife collectors, makers and dealers to assist in getting corporate, media and art community support for the betterment of the industry.

This makes sense, but would have have to be done by a core group within the Association. There would be many that would be interested in joining because of a love for custom knives, and that should be all that is required to be a member.

• To seek out and interact with related groups and organizations in attempt to create new interest and to help in recruiting new custom knife collectors.

An excellent idea.

• To educate and mentor new custom knife collectors and makers.

This is one that I find to be very important, and should be a part of the mission statement of the Association.

• To form a network of custom knife makers and collectors to promote the industry and support one another.

Who could disagree with this?

• To create ways in which for custom knife collectors to better market and connect with other collectors in regard to buying/selling/trading their knives on the secondary market?

Not something that is important to me at this time, but who knows what the future may involve? This is something that should be looked at.

• To create more open dialog between customs collectors and makers in regard to education, knife design, knife construction and sound business practices.

Very important and worthwhile.

• To possibly create an industry wide data base to track maker’s knives as they change hands from collector to collector.

A huge endeavour, and something that could be impossible to do.

• To create general minimum quality standards for of custom knives and best business practices for use as guidelines for custom knife makers, collectors and dealers.

This one is required.

• To possibly act as intermediaries and mediators in disputes involving custom knife makers, collectors and dealers.

This could be a bit of a sticky wicket, but is something that i personally think would be good.

• To create a universally recognized standard for grading condition of custom knives offered for sale on the secondary market by collectors and dealers.

Definitely.

More to come later.

 

[North]

Kevin,

"• To possibly create an industry wide data base to track maker’s knives as they change hands from collector to collector.” Honestly that really turns me off. We are losing privacy daily but I am still able to control for the greatest part who knows what my safes contain. I bet I’m not alone in that.

“• To create general minimum quality standards for of custom knives and best business practices for use as guidelines for custom knife makers, collectors and dealers.” You can create standards but how can you enforce them? Without the ability to enforce them they would be toothless I think.

“• To create a universally recognized standard for grading condition of custom knives offered for sale on the secondary market by collectors and dealers.” Once again, how could you enforce that? I say it’s an A-, you say it’s a C. Who decides and has the final word?

Bill

 

[Keith Montgomery]

• To create general minimum quality standards for of custom knives and best business practices for use as guidelines for custom knife makers, collectors and dealers.” You can create standards but how can you enforce them? Without the ability to enforce them they would be toothless I think.

“• To create a universally recognized standard for grading condition of custom knives offered for sale on the secondary market by collectors and dealers.” Once again, how could you enforce that? I say it’s an A-, you say it’s a C. Who decides and has the final word?

The standards can be written into the bylaws of the Association and would describe all knives that would be defined as custom as pertains to the membership within the Association. It is easy to enforce within your own organization. What people outsice the organization consider to be custom would be impossible to control.

Once again, the standards for grading the condition of knives could only pertain to those that are members of the Association.

If there is disagreement with the standards that have been set up by the Board of Directors (and voted on by all voting members), this can be brought to the Board's attention.

 

[North]

Keith,

Kevin's post did not say that he was referring to members of the association. In fact when talking about the grading issue he used the phrase "universally recognized". That is much further reaching than "members of the Association."

I think that the idea of the association is a good one and I hope it gets off the ground.

Bill

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Keith,

Kevin's post did not say that he was referring to members of the association. In fact when talking about the grading issue he used the phrase "universally recognized". That is much further reaching than "members of the Association."

Bill

I agree that it would be impossible to control how those outside the Association rate their knives, but if the standards that are set make sense, then over time those standards could well be adopted by custom knife collectors as a whole. If the Association is going to help collectors market their knives, there are going to have to be set standards for describing the condition of those knives. You can't have one collector thinking his knife is excellent and another thinking it isn't. There has to be standards that can be used to grade all knives. If the condition of those knives are judged by the same standards, there should be no reason for concern. If they can do it for coins and stamps, it can be done for knives.

 

[A. G. Russell]

Here's a few ideas as to what a collector's association may accomplish. Please give comments and add as you see fit.



• To create general minimum quality standards for of custom knives and best business practices for use as guidelines for custom knife makers, collectors and dealers.

Good luck with this one. I think that only the market place can do this. I have watched for 40 years people with taste different than mine pay huge amounts of money for what looked like crap to me. If you have been around long you have seen it as well. You are not going to many people agree that maker X should have his work excluded because the quality is not up to par.

• To possibly act as intermediaries and mediators in disputes involving custom knife makers, collectors and dealers.

Where are you going to get the power to enforce your position in doing this?

• To create a universally recognized standard for grading condition of custom knives offered for sale on the secondary market by collectors and dealers.

I think that your list is a great beginning, it is very much like what we worked out in June of 1970 for the Guild. I hope that it flies higher and longer.

Focus on growing new collectors and let the knifemakers do their own thing.

I am really looking forward to this.

 

[custombuff]

Kevin,
You put together a very good, very ambitious list of goals for this organization.

I would have to agree that keeping an updated database of who has what would be a huge undertaking for what some see as a drawback and even in the best light may not bring that much benefit.

As for the standards/rating system, I think this is a good idea, but may also prove to be a huge obstacle. First you have the issue with people having different ideas of what constitutes perfection and the various levels between that and poor workmanship. Perhaps you can get a committee that can agree on the things that make up the two extremes, but then you have the in-between ratings that might not be possible to agree on or put into practice as standards even if they were agreed on.

Then there is how the condition of the knife factors in to the original workmanship of the maker. Are both being rated? How deep does a scratch have to be considered an 80% rating instead of a 90% rating? How many scratches? How large of a hazy spot to be considered a large detriment instead of a small one? Does it matter if you can only see the issues in certain light conditions? And these say nothing about a knife that has poor lines/bad design/just looks bad or is ergonomically impractical for its intended use.

I like the idea of standards, but I think for them to be universal, you will end up having to enforce measurable (ie. scientific) attributes on something that is subjective and largely dependant from person to person. Some people honestly don't see some flaws. It's the very reason that people doing a sale need to allow time for the buyer to inspect the knife.

Overall, I like the initial list you have, but some of those goals (no matter how good it would be to accomplish them) might prove too hard to implement. I suppose that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. But you can't be hell-bent on something that won't happen if you don't want to spend all of your resources in one area.

My thoughts so far.

Nick

 

[Keith Montgomery]

A.G., mediators are there to try to get parties with differing ideas to find a common ground. They have no power to regulate anything. They are just there to try to get the two sides to see eye to eye.

 

[Kevin Jones]

A.G., mediators are there to try to get parties with differing ideas to find a common ground. They have no power to regulate anything. They are just there to try to get the two sides to see eye to eye.

As the result of soring legal cost and the lengthy time to settle litigation, mediation has become a very acceptable practice in many areas to settle disputes. It's becoming fairly common practice where parties on opposite sides of issues will agree in advance to abide by an expert's (mediator's) decision after hearing both sides. This is very common in the construction, real estate and development fields and others. Many times both the winners and losers benefit from mediation rather that going through the courts system.

And, unless I'm mistaken at times the ABS will mediate a solution when complaints are brought against ABS makers.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin,

• To possibly create an industry wide data base to track maker’s knives as they change hands from collector to collector.” Honestly that really turns me off. We are losing privacy daily my but I am still able to control for the greatest part who knows what safes contain. I bet I’m not alone in that.

Hi Bill, you make a good point as it does have suggestions of "big brother" is watching. However I was more referring to a program that Tim Hancock presented to the ABS several years ago, (Dan Winkler mentioned it eariler in this thread) that suggested Maker's track their knives via registration numbers to guard against counterfeiting and to show providence and the knife's history. I think most will agree that we have very little history on the antique knives of today (ie, the original Bowie knife etc.).
We must remember that the custom maker's knives of today are the historic antiques of tomorrow. Jerry Fisk assigns #s and certificates to all the knives he makes and has a re-registration program as the knives change hands. I see it as beneficial being a collectors of his knives.

• To create general minimum quality standards for of custom knives and best business practices for use as guidelines for custom knife makers, collectors and dealers.” You can create standards but how can you enforce them? Without the ability to enforce them they would be toothless I think.

And another good point. This association will be comprised of some of the most knowledgeable and talented maker's, dealers and collectors in the industry so even though we would not have any official capacity to enforce these standards we should carry quite a bit of clout and respect to influence the acceptance of them.

To create a universally recognized standard for grading condition of custom knives offered for sale on the secondary market by collectors and dealers.” Once again, how could you enforce that? I say it’s an A-, you say it’s a C. Who decides and has the final word?

As Joe pointed out in an eariler post, gun collectors have had and used a system such as this successfully for years.


Bill

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[ptgdvc]

I have been pondering the notion of makers and purveyors as full members of a Collector's Association. I think the temptation for them to try to influence the objectivity of the organization may simply be too great. It would be better for the Collector's Association to be controlled by the collectors. Perhaps an associate membership could be offered to the makers and purveyors.

P