Cutting out the middle man

emjay4248 said:
Kevin John was the same. He made Sebenza clones that were almost as good as the real ones for $100.00, he also was contracted by American companies to make some of their higher end knives. He has now become an established designer and manufacturer of his own stuff and stopped all cloning as far as we know. in fact his knives are being cloned
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It doesn't matter if they were better than the real ones for $100.00...they are theft. Making clones AND buying clones steal money from people we all know.

It never fails to stun me that people who participate here, and would, supposedly, be passionate about knives and the people who make them, would buy clones. :thumbsdown: Ugly business.
 
T.L.E. Sharp said:
Not if they're clones, no.
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^^ That right there is a class act.

wZUqp0f.gif
 
emjay4248 said:
I am not sure of your opinion of using cheapies as beaters or clones as tryout knives but I have bought a few clones to try out some of your recommendations and have bought most of the real ones. Keep the vids coming
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So that is OK how? I'm genuinely curious what you feel justifies buying clones. What makes it OK to you?
 
US innovations
pocket clip
folding knife serrations
liner lock
axis lock
tri-ad lock
frame lock
bowie knife


Chinese innovations
???
 
AmosPaul said:
US innovations
pocket clip
folding knife serrations
liner lock
axis lock
tri-ad lock
frame lock
bowie knife


Chinese innovations
???
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When my, and perhaps your, ancestors were painting their bollocks blue and living in primitive huts, the Chinese were producing books written on paper, in formal written language, living in houses in a society ordered by civil administration.

I guess most of us live in glass houses. And, by the way, I don’t buy Chinese clones, or any other clones. And as far as I know I don’t own a single Chinese made knife. They allow gross abuse of intellectual property, and have absolutely no intention of changing that in the near future. The present Chinese administration is, in my view, fairly loathsome. But they are a pimple on the arse of Chinese history.
 
I’m in the anti-clone camp as well. I understand imitation is the highest form of flattery, but in this case it’s poor business ethics.
 
danbot said:
Why don't we all just do that and have the American companies and the dealers all go out of business and then we can all just buy whatever the Chinese companies are offering directly from them? Or maybe the American companies could just pack up and move everything over to China and sell directly to us?:thumbsup:
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That happens to knife and all sorts of companies everyday. Outsourcing to China. They do pack up and move to China and operate there.
Case, Schrade. cold steel, spyderco, kershaw, SOG, Buck. They all operate in China as well. Even our military fighters jets. Assembled in USA with Chinese components.

What I find funny is how many people are against clones. While I do totally understand its intellectual property theft of a patent.

At the same time you think all those American knife companies that you all want to support patriotically care about keeping Jobs in America, then why would they outsource. $$$$$$.

You don't want those clones because you want to support legit goodness, well those same companies aren't doing that back by outsourcing to the country that makes those clones. If you want a two way street then don't just not by clones. Don't buy from knife companies that move their operation.
 
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needler420 said:
That happens to knife and all sorts of companies everyday. Outsourcing to China. They do pack up and move to China and operate there.
Case, Schrade. cold steel, spyderco, kershaw, SOG, Buck. They all operate in China as well. Even our military fighters jets. Assembled in USA with Chinese components.

What I find funny is how many people are against clones. While I do totally understand its intellectual property theft of a patent.

At the same time you think all those American knife companies that you all want to support patriotically care about keeping Jobs in America, then why would they outsource. $$$$$$
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They didn't pack up and move to China.
They set up factories there to produce budget line knives for people who weren't willing or able to pay for American produced knives. And as entry level stuff to get their knives into the hands of buyers that will hopefully be wanting to try their pricier American made offerings in the future.
 
Setting up factories there for operation is basically what I meant lol. And those companies do fully relocate people and their families for the point of operation.
 
needler420 said:
Setting up factories there for operation is basically what I meant lol. And those companies do have people fully relocate them and their families for the point of operation.
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Yes, They are not saying "screw you" to American workers by expanding product lines with foreign factories.
 
That's my point. It's why I have lax views on clones. It's a screw you to the company. ( Which I understand is theft)

But when those same companies set up operation in China it's a screw you to American workers. That's the whole point in reloacting a operation to cut cost.. It's not like a Chinese company staying in China. It's well established American companies setting up shop overseas. Cut labor cost, material cost, invade US taxes and jurisdiction etc.

PS I don't even own a single clone of any items not just knives.

My point is I don't bust the chops of the people that do. Those same companies don't care about the American economy either. In a free capitalist market the bottom line for them is revenue not ethics.

Right now I love blade runner systems. The second they setup operation in China I'm done with them.
 
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@emjay4248 Im honestly appalled that someone that has posted nearly 1000 times on this forum still does not understand how clones are viewed on this forum. The mere mention of clones never ends well for the person supporting clones in any way. Anyone that has posted as much as you have should know better.
 
needler420 said:
That's my point. It's why I have lax views on clones. It's a screw you to the company. ( Which I understand is theft)

But when those same companies set up operation in China it's a screw you to American workers. That's the whole point in reloacting a operation to cut cost.. It's not like a Chinese company staying in China. It's well established American companies setting up shop overseas. Cut labor cost, material cost, invade US taxes and jurisdiction etc.
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Clones are also a "screw you" to all of us!
I also don't agree with companies abandoning us just for the bottom line, and knife companies have not done that.
 
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One of the leading topics right now is "Borus is moving to China"
I'm pretty sure it was a established American knife company now moving it's operation to China. They will operate in different places of origin. The same exact premise happened to Buck, Schrade, Case, Spyderco, not benchmade yet lol
And I doubt it was to bring their consumers better quality products. More likely to bring their consumers cheaper products.

All those knife companies I just named basically setup operations overseas to exactly cut out the middle man.
 
danbot said:
Clones are also a "screw you" to all of us!
I also don't agree with companies abandoning us just for the bottom line, and knife companies have not done that.
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Outsourcing to China is often the only way to make decent money as an American company. Not everyone does it and I commend those who don't. But the reality is, it's needed to stay in business for some.

In any case the thread is going off topic.

Kevin is probably shaking his head right now.

Can we please discuss the original post rather than clones or producing products elsewhere.
 
danbot said:
They didn't pack up and move to China.
They set up factories there to produce budget line knives for people who weren't willing or able to pay for American produced knives. And as entry level stuff to get their knives into the hands of buyers that will hopefully be wanting to try their pricier American made offerings in the future.
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Mo2 said:
Outsourcing to China is often the only way to make decent money as an American company. Not everyone does it and I commend those who don't. But the reality is, it's needed to stay in business for some.

In any case the thread is going off topic.

Kevin is probably shaking his head right now.

Can we please discuss the original post rather than clones or producing products elsewhere.
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Oh I know. I just watched a company Hale who is a water pump supplier for E1 ( firetrucks) outsource all their components to China because of all the metal tariffs going on.
 
Mo2 said:
Outsourcing to China is often the only way to make decent money as an American company. Not everyone does it and I commend those who don't. But the reality is, it's needed to stay in business for some.

In any case the thread is going off topic.

Kevin is probably shaking his head right now.

Can we please discuss the original post rather than clones or producing products elsewhere.
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You can’t raise this topic and then expect people to observe an arbitrary, notional disconnect between Chinese manufacturing and exports, and legal, ethical and moral problems relating to Chinese manufacturing and exports. That is simply unrealistic.

Sure, move manufacturing to a far cheaper foreign base. But be prepared to face censure and boycott for doing so. I buy foreign goods all the time. I am typing this on an iPhone and I am fully aware of where it was made. Where I have options, I choose to buy products manufactured in countries where living standards and working conditions are fair for those who work on the front line of production. That is my choice. It is pertinent to the discussion.

In this case, China is the country of manufacture. They currently flout international law on IP, copyright and patent. This is also pertinent to the discussion.
 
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