Cutting out the middle man

Pilsner said:
You can’t raise this topic and then expect people to observe an arbitrary, notional disconnect between Chinese manufacturing and exports, and legal, ethical and moral problems relating to Chinese manufacturing and exports. That is simply unrealistic.

Sure, move manufacturing to a far cheaper foreign base. But be prepared to face censure and boycott for doing so. I buy foreign goods all the time. I am typing this on an iPhone and I am fully aware of where it was made. Where I have options, I choose to buy products manufactured in countries where living standards and working conditions are fair for those who work on the front line of production. That is my choice. It is pertinent to the discussion.

In this case, China is the country of manufacture. They currently flout international law on IP, copyright and patent. This is also pertinent to the discussion.
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This is the original post


clearkevin said:
What are your thoughts on the numerous budget Chinese folders, I find myself asking why I would buy a Kershaw or CRKT or even budget Spyderco when I can get better quality often better materials from Chinese companies especially if I consider companies like twosun or CH rather than say bestech or kizer. I still love the US or Tiwan Spydies ZT's. I just feel like if I'm buying an overseas made knife anyway why not cut out the middle man.
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emjay4248 said:
Who says that you have to buy everything from one or another. I own direct from China knives, Spyderco from all the factories except Italy, Steel will from both Italy and China, and ZT's all American factory
I also buy from others. On the low end it is hard to compete with Direct China. I buy China knives for a few reasons #1 If I know that I will be hard using my knife helping a friend move, it is hard to justify using a $100.00 plus knife for such work #2 If I want to see how much I like a knifes size and its carry-ability I will buy a clone to try it out but I don't carry them I usually give them away to non knife collectors as gifts. I have sold all my cheap Spyderco's CRKT etc and have concentrated $100-$500 knives.
Just for frame of reference I have bought expensive knives after getting a feel for them from the clones.
You would think that American companies would tighten their belts and become more competitive but the opposite is happening. Spyderco recently bumped their prices and I find it hard to swallow the idea of paying $42.00 for a Tenacious when I can get a Steel Will 3.5"Cutjack in D2 for $43.00.

I find it interesting that many knife users are anti China but shop at Walmart where almost everything is made in China. I have never stepped into a Walmart and that is just one of the many reasons I don't shop there. Most people wear clothes from Bangladesh, Vietnam and buy Diamond jewelry from India @ Zales and Walmart where people make the equivalent of less than $5.00 a week and live in a Shanty Shack made of rusty corrugated sheets of metal, I could go on for hours. I buy knives from American companies that do manufacture in China but I am not fooling myself into thinking that it is OK.
The American companies are giving business to the Chinese and making a secondary profit on Americans. I am sure that if the United States stopped working with China we would see a sharp rise in prices and the quality would drop as it had in the past. Recently Trump either enacted or threatened to tax foreign Aluminum and the American and Canadian companies raised their prices the next day before the change had taken place. That is what you have to look forward to if we cutout the foreign imports.
Our government decided to be a big proponent of Globalization and this is the result. Swingline stapler already had a factory built in Mexico waiting for NAFTA to be signed, when it was they were gone the next day and their building is still empty.
I do not wish to have the $10.00 - $50.00 knives in my knife collection but I will continue to use them for hard use instead of a PM2 or a ZT 0452. I also use them when I travel. If they get confiscated or lost it is no big deal.
I do not think that buying Chinese knives from an American company makes it ok and by the way how many of you own Iphones which were made in Chinese sweatshops until Apple got caught and only then did they take action to make it a safe workplace with sane hours and pay.
I am sorry to say that many things that are part of our daily life are made in 3rd world countries that don't even know what human rightsmean. We also forget that most of our borrowed money comes from China and that the health of our great country depends on the health of the Chinese economy. We did that to ourselves.
I appreciate the fact that many of us would like to buy all American and that is something that we should all strive for but please don't justify your actions to yourselves by buying from an American company that makes their stuff in China.
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Bangladesh, Vietnam and India aren't attacking US Allies in the South China Seas. WW III is surely going to happen b/c we had a WW I and WW II, and I think China is going to be at the heart of it.

I don't buy anything from China if I can help it. PERIOD.
 
Mo2 said:
Okay done. I assume you just mean people should buy the USA brand that's made in China. VS the China brand made in China.
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No. I think you are misinterpreting his post because he responded to your last three sentences first, then tied in his opinion to your first point.

In essence, he is saying that when you start conversation such as this, all aspects can and quite possibly will be explored within the natural flow of the conversation and then he gave examples of how and why that is case.
 
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benchwarmer380 said:
No. I think you are misinterpreting his post because he responded to your last three sentences first, then tied in his opinion to your first point.

In essence, he is saying that when you start conversation such as this, all aspects can and quite possibly will be explored within the natural flow of the conversation and then he gave examples of how and why that is case.
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Thank you. :thumbsup:
 
benchwarmer380 said:
No. I think you are misinterpreting his post because he responded to your last three sentences first, then tied in his opinion to your first point.

In essence, he is saying that when you start conversation such as this, all aspects can and quite possibly will be explored within the natural flow of the conversation and then he gave examples of how.
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Really there are two answers...

USA brand made in china
Or
Chinese brand made in China.

You can interject you opinions about USA only... But that's not the topic.

Usa brand is offering designs that are licensed designs by known knife makers. The designer may or may not reside in the USA. The quality and materials of these knives is very low.

The we have the Chinese brands made in China that may have some knife designs licensed from all around the world and there own designs... These knife brands generally use slightly better budget materials and slightly better quality.

Prices between the two are similar while some of the Chinese brands are slightly more expensive.

Which is better to choose? Cut out the middleman or not?

Its as easy as saying one or the other or neither.
 
clearkevin said:
What are your thoughts on the numerous budget Chinese folders, I find myself asking why I would buy a Kershaw or CRKT or even budget Spyderco when I can get better quality often better materials from Chinese companies especially if I consider companies like twosun or CH rather than say bestech or kizer. I still love the US or Tiwan Spydies ZT's. I just feel like if I'm buying an overseas made knife anyway why not cut out the middle man.
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I feel I should chime in on the original topic as intended by kevin. Really I feel that *budget* import models of US companies and direct from china knives are two different things. Import models of US companies, I feel, aren't aimed at knife nuts like us. I feel this is more true in recent years than ever before. These are budget blades made with increasingly low quality materials for the general public that really don't care or know any better either way. The fact is enthusiasts are a minority and marketing to the general populace is much more profitable. These companies pay Chinese factories to make low quality to make a larger margin of profit. The end user pricing really is just the cost of the American side of the business such as designers, logistics, and other facets of the business that are based in the USA. These knives themselves probably cost about a couple bucks to produce. Now keep in mind that I am speaking about *budget* blades such those put out by companies like Gerber, CRKT, and Kershaw and not ones contracted out to China but are meant to be higher end.

Direct from China knives on the other hand (depending on who you buy from) are knives built to a higher standard to try to get their foot in the door in the west. These , like knives that are contracted out to China but are meant to be higher end, are not knives made as cheaply as possible for the largest profit margin as in the above. You mention CH and TwoSun. While they do still have somewhat questionable origins, these companies are not looking to cater to the low budget masses in America. They are trying to build the best knife they can at the price they want to sell them at. This is true of most China companies we are familiar with. This is why I believe that US company import models and direct from China knives are two different things.
 
As far as cutting out the middleman goes... I don't think that's something we should even be debating!
Not when the middleman is our B&M store owners and online dealers that support this site!:thumbsup:
 
danbot said:
As far as cutting out the middleman goes... I don't think that's something we should even be debating!
Not when the middleman is our B&M store owners and online dealers that support this site!:thumbsup:
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I think that's more related to map pricing. Dealers get the knives at dealer costs and sell them at the Map price to the consumer. Of which some of these Chinese brands do but they also sell directly.

You just threw a curve ball here. Cause your right. We should be buying from the supporting vendors. Though I don't think everyone thinks this way.

I wish I could buy all the spydercos directly from spyderco without map pricing. so I can buy a lot more. But I only say this because map pricing has increased so much up to today and I have a knife addiction. Lol

In any case I dunno if Kevin thought of it like that? Or maybe that's exactly what he ment?

D Dfunk1210 great reply!
 
Mo2 said:
I think that's more related to map pricing. Dealers get the knives at dealer costs and sell them at the Map price to the consumer. Of which some of these Chinese brands do but they also sell directly.

You just threw a curve ball here. Cause your right. We should be buying from the supporting vendors. Though I don't think everyone thinks this way.

I wish I could buy all the spydercos directly from spyderco without map pricing. so I can buy a lot more. But I only say this because map pricing has increased so much up to today and I have a knife addiction. Lol

In any case I dunno if Kevin thought of it like that? Or maybe that's exactly what he ment?

D Dfunk1210 great reply!
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I'm not sure what he intended. And I'm in Canada, so knife collecting for me has always been extra costly!:(:poop:
 
danbot said:
I'm not sure what he intended. And I'm in Canada, so knife collecting for me has always been extra costly!:(:poop:
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It's kinda hard to be sure what he intended when he starts a thread on a topic he knows will be controversial and then just disappears. Come on, C clearkevin , if the discussion is important enough to start, surely its important enough for you to engage in!
 
halden.doerge said:
It's kinda hard to be sure what he intended when he starts a thread on a topic he knows will be controversial and then just disappears. Come on, C clearkevin , if the discussion is important enough to start, surely its important enough for you to engage in!
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I was thinking that when I said I wasn't sure what he intended! It's a post and run!? *shrug*
 
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600 billion in loss to IP theft annually according to 2017 report from the Commission on the Theft of American Intellectual Property. Majority of this is led by China.

This is from the US alone and is also hard to factor number of jobs dissolved.

I have zero problem purchasing products made overseas, as long as theft is not an issue. Clones are stolen design/process. So I don’t buy them. Original designs are fine with me. That said, how can you be sure the companies who produce their own design don’t also produce clones as well?


Edit...sorry for the politics...I will delete if I’m violating policy
 
MolokaiRider said:
600 billion in loss to IP theft annually according to 2017 report from the Commission on the Theft of American Intellectual Property. Majority of this is led by China.

This is from the US alone and is also hard to factor number of jobs dissolved.

I have zero problem purchasing products made overseas, as long as theft is not an issue. Clones are stolen design/process. So I don’t buy them. Original designs are fine with me. That said, how can you be sure the companies who produce their own design don’t also produce clones as well?


Edit...sorry for the politics...I will delete if I’m violating policy
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It's really no joke man! I agree.
 
danbot said:
I thinking that when I said I wasn't sure what he intended! It's a post and run!? *shrug*
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Yeah, I kinda find the 'light a fuse and run' approach annoying. Hopefully C clearkevin isn't just trolling, merely wanting to sit back and watch people squabble, and will actually get back into the discussion, talk about what he thinks on the issue, and why he felt it was an important discussion to start.
 
halden.doerge said:
Yeah, I kinda find the 'light a fuse and run' approach annoying. Hopefully C clearkevin isn't just trolling, merely wanting to sit back and watch people squabble, and will actually get back into the discussion, talk about what he thinks on the issue, and why he felt it was an important discussion to start.
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I think he will.
 
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