DAMASCUS – Functional Knife Blade or Art?

[MVF]

All I can say is WOW! Never knew there was this kind of variety and creativity around. Also, always wondered the same thing about the "useability" of Damascus- big thanks to Kevin for starting this thread and to all who have contributed. I'm sure I'm not the only one getting some enlightenment here.

I guess I'm just going to have to go ahead and win the lottery now after seeing the new direction my collecting needs to go!

 

[Kohai999]

Would it be crude of me to ask if the new CASE RAINDROP DAMASCUS,
would be a useful (read practical in daily use) pocket ornament ?
-Steve

I think that it is Devin Thomas damascus, so if they follow the correct heat treat....very good to go.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

Thank you MVF and glad you have enjoyed the thread.

That's good for Devin Thomas and Case. :thumbup: Thanks STeven for the information, I thought he or Robert Eggerling may have been involved.

Was looking back through the thread and WOW, some beautiful damascus and knives have been posted. So perhaps we should do a poll such as the "Best Stag" & "Best Ivory" threads that we had so much fun with.

So continue to post-up your favorites then we will narrow it down to 6-8 and vote via poll.

 

[Joss]

I like damascus, and I consider it to be about as good as carbon steel as long as the maker has complete mastery of the process and doesn't screw up.

I do tend to think that mosaic is likely to have lightly lower strength than pattern welded steels. Also, from a personal standpoint, I tend to like the least figurative and most geometric or random patterns, so again, a strike in my subjective book against most mosaic.

One aspect of damascus which in my opinion is a huge blow against performance is the use of pure nickel. In my opinion, any damascus that incorporates pure nickel is fatally flawed from a knife performance standpoint.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I like the use of pure nickel in pattern welded steel used for fittings. When used in the making of a blade, it is for art, not function.

 

[custombuff]

I personally like damascus knives and feel that-all other things being equal-a damascus blade does add value. I also think that a damascus blade can be just as much of a user.

As far as toughness is concerned, if the blade is forged of two dissimilar metals (that harden as differenct temperatures), then you will get a blade that is stronger than a comparable straight carbon (or stainless for that matter). Since you have two steels twisted/folded/forged together that have different hardnesses (assuming it's done right and all of the welds are good), the blade should be nearly indestructible. It would be like a differentially treated straight carbon knife, but throughout the blade (instead of soft spine, hard edge, you have soft and hard intermixed throughout the blade). Any cracking that might happen would be localized and probably not result in a completely broken or shattered blade.

Setting your Rockwell hardness goal using the steel that hardens first, you will have a blade that can hold an edge (technically the softer portions will dull faster, but there should be equal parts that are harder still holding the edge-and that's at a very fine level). In this regard, I would think that a straight carbon blade could out-cut a damascus blade, but that doesn't take into account any sort of micro edge that may or may not be present.

This all seems to hold up metallurgically, but of course requires proper selection of materials and proper heat treating.

I can't really speak to mosaic, but it seems that it would be a little more brittle since there are distinct areas of metals rather than an even mix.

Nick

 

[straitshot]

I always assumed the origin was a method of creating tougher blades from the steel available at the time. I suspect the steels used were the same as for the homogeneous blades and folding or twisting the blanks made for clearly better blades. It would seem to follow that use of modern steels in the same fashion would have the same effects.

I've "assembled" a few fixed from quality all HC blanks (mid-50's Rc) for my own use and they cut well beyond what I expected. The two I've tested on lumber and hardboard siding continue to cut well even after losing a shaving edge. Hardboard is a severe test of the edge because it contains a lot of grit from the log surface and bark- if cut at night with a power saw you can see the sparks fly.

The top one is my favorite user of the bunch, 3.5" x 1/8 with 25 yr. old Philipine mahogany. The bottom one took the longest - it's mesquite heartwood from a dead limb on a live tree- I wanted the grain to follow the handle that is a mirror reverse of the spine curvature. The guard and butt cap are identical but reversed also. The scratches from use are visible on both. They won't excite a collector, but they are very satisfying to carry and use.

I flexed my favorite in a vise (mostly to test the handle integrity) way beyond where I actually would even in severe use (about 25-30 degrees) and it didn't take a set. I'm sold on the performance with the added dimension of a unique user that I can trust. I'm not into destruction testing so it's just my own personal experience. I don't have any customs to compare. Regards, ss.

 

[peterinct]

Great thread and some very impressive knives. I find mosaic damascus fascinating and amongst the most incredible pattern welding i've seen is that of Pierre Reverdy shown in David Daroms book on Fixed Blade knives.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Great thread and some very impressive knives. I find mosaic damascus fascinating and amongst the most incredible pattern welding i've seen is that of Pierre Reverdy shown in David Daroms book on Fixed Blade knives.

I agree. I'm crazy about mosaic dasmascus, however believe you may give up a little strength as a compromise for beauty.
I was hoping one of our damascus makers would expand on the subject of mosaic vs strength?

 

[Larrin]

I agree. I'm crazy about mosaic dasmascus, however believe you may give up a little strength as a compromise for beauty.
I was hoping one of our damascus makers would expand on the subject of mosaic vs strength?

It depends on how the final weld was done. Some guys are lining up tiles that are barely reduced in size at all when they are forge welded to prevent distortion. That is not a using knife, it's an art knife. If you want a mosaic damascus using knife, talk to the damascus maker so that he knows what type of mosaic to make for you. It seems to me that most mosaic damascus is reduced enough in forge welding to give you a complete weld, but it never hurts to talk to the maker if you actually want a using knife. Do people order mosaic damascus knives to be users?

 

[joeshredd]

I always assumed the origin was a method of creating tougher blades from the steel available at the time. I suspect the steels used were the same as for the homogeneous blades and folding or twisting the blanks made for clearly better blades. It would seem to follow that use of modern steels in the same fashion would have the same effects.

I was hoping someone would bring up the history of "Damascus" steel... And I also hope anyone would be willing to chime in whereever I may be pointing in the wrong direction - as much as I have learned through outside references, I always find many of you have way more knowledge along these lines than myself and I always enjoy learning from those who practice the art!

One must remember - iron ore varied drastically across the ancient world, with some of the finest being mined in northern Europe; hence the much stronger blades of the Norse than the continental Europeans.

The steel of the Middle East, India and the Asian areas was generally inferior in quantities necessary to make a large, strong blade... Hence the developement of using multiple layers of slightly different steels to create the finished blade, especially those of sword length. The areas of the Indian subcontinent found ways of producing adequate steel through the Wootz method, while the areas of the Middle East learned to layer different qualities of steel to produce flexible blades with enough strength not to shatter on impact. And the blades of Asia, particularly Japan, depended on forging together different billets of different qualities of steel to achieve the flexibility and cutting efficiency we have come to know and respect.

It wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that we began to encounter large quantities of reasonably uniform steels, of varying compositions depending upon intended use, that could be used to form blades of varying sizes without the need to layer different kinds of metal together to achieve that end. And it hasn't really been until the middle of the twentieth Century that we have encountered the quality of steel that has now permitted single billets to begin to approach the quality of "Damascus" style blades. And now, with the advances in Heat Treating, we can actually produce homogenous steel that can exceed the functional aspects of most of historical "damascus" produced blades...

However, as I collect both, given the quality of most makers' products, I have no hesitation of using a pure carbon steel forged by a knowledgable maker over a Damascus blade made by an equally knowledgable maker over a stock removal blade also made by an equally knowledgable maker with heat treating of all three considered equal and appropriate to the medium used...

Thank you all for sharing the thoughts and visuals provided so far... It's humbling in light of my meager collection!

 

[Kevin Jones]

I was hoping someone would bring up the history of "Damascus" steel... And I also hope anyone would be willing to chime in whereever I may be pointing in the wrong direction - as much as I have learned through outside references, I always find many of you have way more knowledge along these lines than myself and I always enjoy learning from those who practice the art!

One must remember - iron ore varied drastically across the ancient world, with some of the finest being mined in northern Europe; hence the much stronger blades of the Norse than the continental Europeans.

The steel of the Middle East, India and the Asian areas was generally inferior in quantities necessary to make a large, strong blade... Hence the developement of using multiple layers of slightly different steels to create the finished blade, especially those of sword length. The areas of the Indian subcontinent found ways of producing adequate steel through the Wootz method, while the areas of the Middle East learned to layer different qualities of steel to produce flexible blades with enough strength not to shatter on impact. And the blades of Asia, particularly Japan, depended on forging together different billets of different qualities of steel to achieve the flexibility and cutting efficiency we have come to know and respect.

It wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that we began to encounter large quantities of reasonably uniform steels, of varying compositions depending upon intended use, that could be used to form blades of varying sizes without the need to layer different kinds of metal together to achieve that end. And it hasn't really been until the middle of the twentieth Century that we have encountered the quality of steel that has now permitted single billets to begin to approach the quality of "Damascus" style blades. And now, with the advances in Heat Treating, we can actually produce homogenous steel that can exceed the functional aspects of most of historical "damascus" produced blades...

However, as I collect both, given the quality of most makers' products, I have no hesitation of using a pure carbon steel forged by a knowledgable maker over a Damascus blade made by an equally knowledgable maker over a stock removal blade also made by an equally knowledgable maker with heat treating of all three considered equal and appropriate to the medium used...

Thank you all for sharing the thoughts and visuals provided so far... It's humbling in light of my meager collection!

Good informational post Joe, as I was hoping we could cover some of the fascinating history of the forged damascus blade.

I think we lose sight of the fact that the blade has made an enormous contribution to the advancement of civilization since the beginning of time.

The movie "300", even thought it veers from historic accuracy quite a bit, is an example of how ancient life depended on the blade for sheer existence.

 

[buzzard767]

I personally like damascus knives and feel that-all other things being equal-a damascus blade does add value. I also think that a damascus blade can be just as much of a user.

As far as toughness is concerned, if the blade is forged of two dissimilar metals (that harden as differenct temperatures), then you will get a blade that is stronger than a comparable straight carbon (or stainless for that matter). Since you have two steels twisted/folded/forged together that have different hardnesses (assuming it's done right and all of the welds are good), the blade should be nearly indestructible. It would be like a differentially treated straight carbon knife, but throughout the blade (instead of soft spine, hard edge, you have soft and hard intermixed throughout the blade). Any cracking that might happen would be localized and probably not result in a completely broken or shattered blade. Nick

You aren't the only one who feels that way.

This, from Ray Rantanen's web site:

"This type of laminated blade cannot break. The many layers do not allow a crack to propagate through the blade. Testing has shown a blade bent to 90 degrees and hammered flat on an anvil, cold, does not show any sign of stress or breakage. The blade has to be bent to almost 180 degrees before the outer layers crack. Even then the blade does not break. Because of this a Damascus blade is a real survival knife and will out perform any single steel knife."

I own two of his L6's, a 5" kitchen utility and a 4 1/4" steak knife. I've been abusing the steak knife for toughness and it is passing my subjective tests. I'll be ordering more to complete a set.

Here's his site, very interesting stuff:
http://raysknives.netfirms.com/aboutdamascus.htm

Buzz

 

[Kevin Jones]

You aren't the only one who feels that way.

This, from Ray Rantanen's web site:

"This type of laminated blade cannot break. The many layers do not allow a crack to propagate through the blade. Testing has shown a blade bent to 90 degrees and hammered flat on an anvil, cold, does not show any sign of stress or breakage. The blade has to be bent to almost 180 degrees before the outer layers crack. Even then the blade does not break. Because of this a Damascus blade is a real survival knife and will out perform any single steel knife."

I own two of his L6's, a 5" kitchen utility and a 4 1/4" steak knife. I've been abusing the steak knife for toughness and it is passing my subjective tests. I'll be ordering more to complete a set.

Here's his site, very interesting stuff:
http://raysknives.netfirms.com/aboutdamascus.htm

Buzz

Thanks Buzz for sharing the link to Ray's site.
That's about as accurate a description as to what damascus is and the simplest explanation as to how it's made as I have ever seen.

I hope everyone that's participated in this thread (especially new collectors) reads it. :thumbup:

 

[buzzard767]

Thanks Buzz for sharing the link to Ray's site.
That's about as accurate a description as to what damascus is and the simplest explanation as to how it's made as I have ever seen.

I hope everyone that's participated in this thread (especially new collectors) reads it. :thumbup:

I thought Ray's site would show the functionality aspect of damascus as this thread seems to be mostly concerned with the beauty of the art.

Buzz

 

[Kevin Jones]

 

[ClipJack]

Does anyone have any information about the toughness of Damasteel for use in big fighters like Bowies? I see a lot of it in beautiful art folders, but wonder if it is strong enough and durable enough for big blades.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Does anyone have any information about the toughness of Damasteel for use in big fighters like Bowies? I see a lot of it in beautiful art folders, but wonder if it is strong enough and durable enough for big blades.

I have rarely seen it on larger blades. The 8" blade on the other thread is one of the few.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=491028

I too would like more information on Damasteel if anyone cares to share their knowledge.

 

[Larrin]

Does anyone have any information about the toughness of Damasteel for use in big fighters like Bowies? I see a lot of it in beautiful art folders, but wonder if it is strong enough and durable enough for big blades.

It's as tough as a combination of RWL-34 and PMC27.

 

[ClipJack]

Thanks for that. I understand there are different formulations of Damasteel suitable for knives, one of which contains RWL-34 and another of which does not. I would certainly like any further info from anyone who knows what kinds of performance differences the various Damasteel formulations deliver.