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Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
DARK OPS Pics. PLEASE!!!!!
- Thread starter Walking Man
- Start date
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Esav, I didn't think I was being particularly nasty. I have given thought to the issue of ad copy as it relates to self defense, and Brownie's comment about "not much forethought" addressed pretty much everyone who had commented negatively about the ad copy. I found it to be rather insulting to be chastised by someone who then went on to comment extensively about ad copy that he then admitted to not even reading.
He addressed the ad copy legal issue by basically saying "it's a total non issue unless it is", which I think is a fallacious argument. Sure, what should matter in court is solely whether the hypothetical defendant was in fear for his life, unable to back down (depending on jurisdiction), and thus justified in using his knife for self defense. But if the prosecutor can paint a picture of the defendant as some sort of survivalist cult psycho and use the DOK ad copy as evidence thereof, then the jury will remember it. Sure, they might be specifically instructed to not consider that evidence (if the defense attorney objects that it's not relevant, etc) but people aren't computers that dispassionately accept only the information they are told is relevant.
The media image issue is also important when looking at ad copy like this. Most weapons laws I've seen aren't passed after a careful scrutiny of available evidence; rather, they are passed by politicians grandstanding about "doing something to get crime off the streets". The media tends to also be anti-weapon and it's highly irresponsible for a company to be printing such inflammatory advertising when it could result in bad press that could fuel further restrictions on our rights to buy and/or carry knives.
He addressed the ad copy legal issue by basically saying "it's a total non issue unless it is", which I think is a fallacious argument. Sure, what should matter in court is solely whether the hypothetical defendant was in fear for his life, unable to back down (depending on jurisdiction), and thus justified in using his knife for self defense. But if the prosecutor can paint a picture of the defendant as some sort of survivalist cult psycho and use the DOK ad copy as evidence thereof, then the jury will remember it. Sure, they might be specifically instructed to not consider that evidence (if the defense attorney objects that it's not relevant, etc) but people aren't computers that dispassionately accept only the information they are told is relevant.
The media image issue is also important when looking at ad copy like this. Most weapons laws I've seen aren't passed after a careful scrutiny of available evidence; rather, they are passed by politicians grandstanding about "doing something to get crime off the streets". The media tends to also be anti-weapon and it's highly irresponsible for a company to be printing such inflammatory advertising when it could result in bad press that could fuel further restrictions on our rights to buy and/or carry knives.
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2004
- Messages
- 187
I can' post pics here, but...I can't help but notice the striking similarity between the Dark Ops Raven and the ER Fulcrum. Uncanny!? 
Check them out for yourself, maybe it's just me.
www.darkopsknives.com
www.extremaratio.com
Check them out for yourself, maybe it's just me.
www.darkopsknives.com
www.extremaratio.com
- Joined
- Oct 14, 1998
- Messages
- 2,157
When I hear about a knife named "Raven", I think of Rob Simonich's Raven. I think he even made a tanto with an optional band breaker.
Why didn't they choose a different name? I hope they didn't pick the name with the intention of riding Rob's coat tails.
:barf:
Why didn't they choose a different name? I hope they didn't pick the name with the intention of riding Rob's coat tails.
:barf:- Joined
- Apr 8, 2004
- Messages
- 187
DaveH said:Looks pretty much the same except for the grips.
At least DOK doesn't have a supremely stupid web page
mechanism like ER does. Though I suppose the wording makes it even.
Let's see if this works:
Ahhh...thanks for posting the pics. So, I'm assuming it isn't just me that see's the similarities.
....the ERs never really caught my eye....somehow they looked to me as if they were trying to hard to look super functional, macho, whiz-bang-gung-ho-gotta-have "Team-Proven", etc., etc. And yes, I handled them at Blade '03.
Frank Miller may be a great, honest, caring knife entrepreneur but I can't see how he allowed himself to become associated with whoever wrote the inane ad copy. Sleep with dogs....you get fleas...PERIOD!
Just my $ 0.02 worth!
Larry S.
Frank Miller may be a great, honest, caring knife entrepreneur but I can't see how he allowed himself to become associated with whoever wrote the inane ad copy. Sleep with dogs....you get fleas...PERIOD!
Just my $ 0.02 worth!
Larry S.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2003
- Messages
- 1,913
FoxholeAtheist:
As to ad copy, I was referring to others posts about seeing it in the rags, not the website. If the ad copy is the same, I have seen it, if it deviates, I haven't, but from the site and others comments about the copy content in the rags it sounds a little over the top as I stated before.
As to the potential prosecution of an individual where they "paint a picture of the defendant as some sort of survivalist cult psycho" "and use the DOK ad copy as evidence thereof", thats going to be very difficult where I'm concerned if that occurs. They would only have to look at the weapons safes and their contents to attempt to paint me with that brush, it sure wouldn't take ad copy from DOK. I bet many here are in the same circumstance, lots of toys, hobby buffs in the knives who when discovered to have them in such quantity could be painted similairly without any help from DOK or any other knife company for that matter.
People who have trained in the use of the blade for defensive purposes or are trainers themselves could also suffer the same attempted brush strokes as easily or more so by an aggressive DA as some knut who went to the trouble to get trained in defensive knife tactics and of course then was just waiting to use that skill to injure another. There are many angles to prosecution and defendants character assassinations on the stand.
Now it is possible he [ the defendant ] first saw that DOK and a ligtbulb went off that he turned into a raving lunatic from the ad copy and was, after having read the ads, forever changed into that cult psycho. I'll play the odds that if some wierd one does use one of these knives one day, they don't look so much at the ad as the reason or justification to attempt to paint him as phsyco, but more like his background, prior demeanor and past criminal history like everyone else. No court is going to listen to anything from the DA's side about an ad turning someone into a psycho all by itself as you presume above IMO with dealing with the courts unless they specifically bring in professionals to testify accordingly after you have been "seen" by their side and your own for them to report their findings in a specific case. If that happened, and thats a big if in my book, there would more to the story than just the ad copy turning someone into that type of individual.
The media issue is important as you state for obvious reasons to us knife knuts who like to carry various straight and folder knives about our person. Just the act of carrying a "tactical" folder may paint you into that corner by the press and liberals all by itself, and it is sure to be used against you as they will be asking questions long before that about how you came to own the knife, where you piurchased it, how you knew about the company, how many you own like it, these boards perhaps as well.
Did Franks ads hurt the industry? I don't know myself. It is too early to call. Do they have the potential to harm the general industry? Perhaps, but it has not been proven to date. You mention that other ad copy as juvenile in nature, again that will be for the defense team to handle, if and when it comes up in that context. If they [ ones atty ] are prepared for the potentials, they'll have that quashed in short order.
Can you cite the cases you are aware of where and what ad copy was used against a defendant as you state?
As to worrying about carrying their products due to the ad copy and potential for harm in a court case down the road, well thats like the old debate about whether one should not use a certain makers ammo due to ad copy.
As an example which would of course would be brought out in a courtroom at just the right time: When the black talon ammo was purported to be specifically made to create massive trauma by it's special construction and serrations which opened more aggressively, backed by doctors reports from various ER's on the effects of this bullets construction and that it was only made for creating massive tissue destruction [ the ads ] where the press got ahold of this and the company pulled the ads and bullets from the shelves accordingly due to the negative connotations.
Well, we tested the ammo, which along with all the destructive power, was also supposed to keep the jacket from seperating thereby giving deeper penetration and more chance of taking one out due to good depth to the vitals and guess what we found? The jackets seperate faster than others whose ads never mentions the jacket seperation issues at all in car doors and not one out of hundreds in various calibers made it through a car door all day with the jacket intact, let alone made it through the door of the cars.
Imagine the surprise on the jurors faces when the ad copy was shown to reflect something other than truth and was found to be just a " promotional ad " to sell product [ which is exactly what ads are designed to do by drawing attention to themselves. ]. I think Frank has done that very well as evidenced by flury of posts about the man, the knives and the ads.
I should only worry that my training will keep me alive with the knife I have when I need it the most. That I am able to access it in time to use it to my advantage. That it is legal in the jurisdiction I find myself in at the time. That my actions were prudent and considered reasonable to a layperson on the jury [ thats a big hurdle as you then have to tell non-knife knuts on the jury why you were carrying that knife to begin with, which they will not hardily agree with for the most part ].
These are the things to worry about in life, not ad copy contributing to putting you in jail for the type of knife you used in a righteous SD scenario down the road.
Of course we can have differences in opinions, thats to be expected when two peope discuss anything, let alone many discussing something so controversial as knives for SD to begin with.
Frank took suggestions from people who purchased ER's line from him, his own observations and designed/upgraded versions with user input. Would they not look similiar in appearance? As far as I can tell, Frank is attempting to give the public what they wanted that was lackign in anothers lineup. UPgrades are always nice, especially when you start with a very good product to begin with.
Brownie
As to ad copy, I was referring to others posts about seeing it in the rags, not the website. If the ad copy is the same, I have seen it, if it deviates, I haven't, but from the site and others comments about the copy content in the rags it sounds a little over the top as I stated before.
As to the potential prosecution of an individual where they "paint a picture of the defendant as some sort of survivalist cult psycho" "and use the DOK ad copy as evidence thereof", thats going to be very difficult where I'm concerned if that occurs. They would only have to look at the weapons safes and their contents to attempt to paint me with that brush, it sure wouldn't take ad copy from DOK. I bet many here are in the same circumstance, lots of toys, hobby buffs in the knives who when discovered to have them in such quantity could be painted similairly without any help from DOK or any other knife company for that matter.
People who have trained in the use of the blade for defensive purposes or are trainers themselves could also suffer the same attempted brush strokes as easily or more so by an aggressive DA as some knut who went to the trouble to get trained in defensive knife tactics and of course then was just waiting to use that skill to injure another. There are many angles to prosecution and defendants character assassinations on the stand.
Now it is possible he [ the defendant ] first saw that DOK and a ligtbulb went off that he turned into a raving lunatic from the ad copy and was, after having read the ads, forever changed into that cult psycho. I'll play the odds that if some wierd one does use one of these knives one day, they don't look so much at the ad as the reason or justification to attempt to paint him as phsyco, but more like his background, prior demeanor and past criminal history like everyone else. No court is going to listen to anything from the DA's side about an ad turning someone into a psycho all by itself as you presume above IMO with dealing with the courts unless they specifically bring in professionals to testify accordingly after you have been "seen" by their side and your own for them to report their findings in a specific case. If that happened, and thats a big if in my book, there would more to the story than just the ad copy turning someone into that type of individual.
The media issue is important as you state for obvious reasons to us knife knuts who like to carry various straight and folder knives about our person. Just the act of carrying a "tactical" folder may paint you into that corner by the press and liberals all by itself, and it is sure to be used against you as they will be asking questions long before that about how you came to own the knife, where you piurchased it, how you knew about the company, how many you own like it, these boards perhaps as well.
Did Franks ads hurt the industry? I don't know myself. It is too early to call. Do they have the potential to harm the general industry? Perhaps, but it has not been proven to date. You mention that other ad copy as juvenile in nature, again that will be for the defense team to handle, if and when it comes up in that context. If they [ ones atty ] are prepared for the potentials, they'll have that quashed in short order.
Can you cite the cases you are aware of where and what ad copy was used against a defendant as you state?
As to worrying about carrying their products due to the ad copy and potential for harm in a court case down the road, well thats like the old debate about whether one should not use a certain makers ammo due to ad copy.
As an example which would of course would be brought out in a courtroom at just the right time: When the black talon ammo was purported to be specifically made to create massive trauma by it's special construction and serrations which opened more aggressively, backed by doctors reports from various ER's on the effects of this bullets construction and that it was only made for creating massive tissue destruction [ the ads ] where the press got ahold of this and the company pulled the ads and bullets from the shelves accordingly due to the negative connotations.
Well, we tested the ammo, which along with all the destructive power, was also supposed to keep the jacket from seperating thereby giving deeper penetration and more chance of taking one out due to good depth to the vitals and guess what we found? The jackets seperate faster than others whose ads never mentions the jacket seperation issues at all in car doors and not one out of hundreds in various calibers made it through a car door all day with the jacket intact, let alone made it through the door of the cars.
Imagine the surprise on the jurors faces when the ad copy was shown to reflect something other than truth and was found to be just a " promotional ad " to sell product [ which is exactly what ads are designed to do by drawing attention to themselves. ]. I think Frank has done that very well as evidenced by flury of posts about the man, the knives and the ads.
I should only worry that my training will keep me alive with the knife I have when I need it the most. That I am able to access it in time to use it to my advantage. That it is legal in the jurisdiction I find myself in at the time. That my actions were prudent and considered reasonable to a layperson on the jury [ thats a big hurdle as you then have to tell non-knife knuts on the jury why you were carrying that knife to begin with, which they will not hardily agree with for the most part ].
These are the things to worry about in life, not ad copy contributing to putting you in jail for the type of knife you used in a righteous SD scenario down the road.
Of course we can have differences in opinions, thats to be expected when two peope discuss anything, let alone many discussing something so controversial as knives for SD to begin with.
Frank took suggestions from people who purchased ER's line from him, his own observations and designed/upgraded versions with user input. Would they not look similiar in appearance? As far as I can tell, Frank is attempting to give the public what they wanted that was lackign in anothers lineup. UPgrades are always nice, especially when you start with a very good product to begin with.
Brownie
Despite what you might think of the Dark Ops add they make some pretty fantastic claims about CTV2 steel, "Possibly the best knife steel ever". The CTV2 Trademark would imply that it is made by Crucible with their CPM Process. The add says "Made in America", if so who makes it and has the blades been tested against others to prove this? I know Busse and Cold Steel have made similar claims, but at least they provided testing data and demonstrations to support their claims. And are they really "Intended for military and law enforcement professionals only"? If so then I can assume they will not be sold in the local mall but only through DOD and Police outlets? I know our local police department would never allow an officer to carry a fixed knife like this, they have a 4" maximum blade length requirement and no blood grooves. I wish Frank and Paul the best, but it's just hype if they can't produce results!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2002
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- 426
hmmm...upon seeing them side by side I retract my statement that they arnt to remenicent of ER...they are identical with different handles.
well...I got some pretty nasty things to say, but in the interest of finding out more I will just say.
Crazy ad copy=funny (well to me, I understand the serious problems it can cause too)
Ripping off your former buisness partners' designs, plopping a new handle on em and selling them without giving designer credit=very not funny
where's Frank? waitin for him to hit this thread like a ton of bricks and smooth out this mess so I can understand why people think he's cool.
well...I got some pretty nasty things to say, but in the interest of finding out more I will just say.
Crazy ad copy=funny (well to me, I understand the serious problems it can cause too)
Ripping off your former buisness partners' designs, plopping a new handle on em and selling them without giving designer credit=very not funny
where's Frank? waitin for him to hit this thread like a ton of bricks and smooth out this mess so I can understand why people think he's cool.
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- Jun 6, 2000
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- 3,625
Looks like a blatent copy... Even the handle is almost identical! 
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2003
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- 2,315
Brownie,
Sorry about the confusion about whether you had read the ads. Sure sounded like you were claiming that you had not seen any of the company's advertising for their knives.
I might have been unclear, but I wasn't meaning to imply "an ad turning someone into a psycho all by itself as you presume above", but rather that the prosecution might contend that the ad would appeal to someone with a desire to go on a killing spree. I'll stipulate that the shear number of knives that some of us have (I have around ten, but some would even consider that to be excessive) could be used to show the same, but that's a bit of a red herring. I'm focusing on the over-the-top ad copy issue.
As to whether the ads hurt the industry, of course that has yet to be shown. It's entirely possible that the company could completely revise their website tomorrow and never run print ads, and that the public at large will never see a single letter of it. My point is that in a legal climate where it has been shown that such things can cause bad publicity for the company, the industry, and the customers, companies should be very cautious about letting the hyperbole get the better of them when it comes to writing or approving ads.
As to citing cases where ad copy or names has been used against a defendant, I'll have to concede that if I ever have heard of specific cases, I can't remember any of them now. I used to read many of the handgun magazines, and seem to remember seeing this claim there, but now I cannot recall if they were citing cases, or speaking in generalities. I'll stipulate that this might be some sort of right-wing urban legend, but will try to do some googling to back that up.
Regarding your example of the Black Talon ammunition, the actual performance of the round would be irrelevant to the (hypothetical) DA's case that the advertising appealed to the (again hypothetical) defendant due to a predisposition toward killing.
I do agree that there are more important things to do in life than worry about how a hypothetical jury would view the ad copy for the knife you carry should you have to use that knife in a self-defense scenario. On the other hand, with so many quality knives to consider on the market today, why buy one with that additional potential liability?
Sorry about the confusion about whether you had read the ads. Sure sounded like you were claiming that you had not seen any of the company's advertising for their knives.
I might have been unclear, but I wasn't meaning to imply "an ad turning someone into a psycho all by itself as you presume above", but rather that the prosecution might contend that the ad would appeal to someone with a desire to go on a killing spree. I'll stipulate that the shear number of knives that some of us have (I have around ten, but some would even consider that to be excessive) could be used to show the same, but that's a bit of a red herring. I'm focusing on the over-the-top ad copy issue.
As to whether the ads hurt the industry, of course that has yet to be shown. It's entirely possible that the company could completely revise their website tomorrow and never run print ads, and that the public at large will never see a single letter of it. My point is that in a legal climate where it has been shown that such things can cause bad publicity for the company, the industry, and the customers, companies should be very cautious about letting the hyperbole get the better of them when it comes to writing or approving ads.
As to citing cases where ad copy or names has been used against a defendant, I'll have to concede that if I ever have heard of specific cases, I can't remember any of them now. I used to read many of the handgun magazines, and seem to remember seeing this claim there, but now I cannot recall if they were citing cases, or speaking in generalities. I'll stipulate that this might be some sort of right-wing urban legend, but will try to do some googling to back that up.
Regarding your example of the Black Talon ammunition, the actual performance of the round would be irrelevant to the (hypothetical) DA's case that the advertising appealed to the (again hypothetical) defendant due to a predisposition toward killing.
I do agree that there are more important things to do in life than worry about how a hypothetical jury would view the ad copy for the knife you carry should you have to use that knife in a self-defense scenario. On the other hand, with so many quality knives to consider on the market today, why buy one with that additional potential liability?
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- Feb 21, 2003
- Messages
- 1,487
Wow. And ahhh...take that wow as you wish...
edited to add I: bet the E.R. people crap a brick when they see these knives. I think that everyone that wants one should get one as soon as they can.
edited to add I: bet the E.R. people crap a brick when they see these knives. I think that everyone that wants one should get one as soon as they can.
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2002
- Messages
- 19,806
i agree, could you imagine a firearms manufacturer using the same advertizing technique for any firearm, even the ar's? do we want to be like australia or other countries where they fight to keep a camp knife of any design in their posession? i think not.Buzzbait said:
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- Jun 6, 2000
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A bum rush is still a bum rush though...
What a great way to start a knife company:
1. Show up at the largest knife show in the world with a ton of hype but no knives and no pictures of the knives.
2. Rip designs off of the comapny that you used to work for.
3. Rip off one of the most respected makers in the knife world. A man who just happens to have been at the very top of the tactical knife world when he is tragically killed in a car wreck. A man who has a whole lot of friends.
Three strikes and you are out. I counted Rob Simonich a friend. He had a knife with a band breaker called the Raven and a smaller version called the Urban Raven. Both of these knives are being sold now as mid techs by Rob's family. Dark Ops is stealing the design and the name. They will not get any of my money, only my anger. That's OK though their marketing is certainly not aimed at people like me anyway.
1. Show up at the largest knife show in the world with a ton of hype but no knives and no pictures of the knives.
2. Rip designs off of the comapny that you used to work for.
3. Rip off one of the most respected makers in the knife world. A man who just happens to have been at the very top of the tactical knife world when he is tragically killed in a car wreck. A man who has a whole lot of friends.
Three strikes and you are out. I counted Rob Simonich a friend. He had a knife with a band breaker called the Raven and a smaller version called the Urban Raven. Both of these knives are being sold now as mid techs by Rob's family. Dark Ops is stealing the design and the name. They will not get any of my money, only my anger. That's OK though their marketing is certainly not aimed at people like me anyway.