Did the swiss create the ultimate pocket knife?

[Amos Iron Wolf]

Happy goodness! Miss Kitteh was taking a nap and I snuck out to check the mail. Yup! The SAK Alox Farmer was there! It's in my pocket now, replacing the camo Tinker that was holding its spot. The Alox makes the Farmer nearly as thin as the celidor scaled Tinker, even though the Farmer is a three spring vs the two of the Tinker. Can't tell a difference between the two in the pocket.

I also got the package of used SAKs. The seller had noticed he listed a Signature and a Manager, but in the photos it was a Rambler instead of a Manager. So being decent he tossed in all three, Signature, Manager, and Rambler! Not bad for $4.99 and a $2 shipping. They have some pocket wear on the scales, but everything else is excellent and the pens in the two work just fine. I may have to add one to my key ring just for the pen. Being retired without pay I don't carry a pen as religiously as I used to.

I loved the link to the gearhead section. It should be telling that a lot of those guys who are out and about always have a SAK on them. Even though they carry larger fixed blades and have the choice of other multi-tools, there are a LOT of them that don't leave home without a SAK on their person.

At one point when I was carrying stuff on my belt and SOG came out with their big multi-tool with the serious pliers on it, I got one. I wanted some heavier duty pliers and thought that would be cool. Whenever I tried using the pliers for heavy stuff, the darned things would manage to pinch my hand around the palm. That said, I've taken replaced a battery and pulled a dysfunctional alarm system out of a vehicle before with just a SAK Swisschamp using the pliers and the screwdrivers.

Just SAK goodness today. Now if my strop leather and compounds, and my Hartsook will just get here. Hmpf. A SAK Farmer and a Buck Hartsook. Sure would cover a lot for most general uses these days for EDC. Swap out the Hartsook, or not, for a Mora and a tomahawk or hand axe for the woods and that would be a nice bit of kit.

Gotta go fondle, I mean examine my Alox Farmer now.

 

[Fred Sanford]

To answer the original question...yes they have. For under $30 you can buy just about any SAK you like. Any one of them will most likely last you a lifetime if you take care of them.

These "hard use" knives are simply marketing and that's it. Nobody needs a 1/4" thick blade in a folding knife.

 

[knarfeng]

I dunno. I carried a Tinker every day for a couple three years. I decided it was handy, but that it just didn't do it for me. I moved on to other knives for every day carry. I still have SAKs, but, aside from my Classic, seldom carry them.

So, Been There. Done That. Didn't work for me.

 

[pinnah]

Bottom line remains unchanged. They are ubiquitous the world over because they work and because they are well designed and engineered and built consistently to high standards with consistent quality to be capable of doing everything a pocket knife should do. Plus the company stands behind the product. And all that for just a few bucks --- that's an incredible value in a knife. Simply put, Victorinox broke the code.

They are consistently made, to be sure. They have very good QC also. They also have several design flaws, including their sub-par heat treatment which is fine for John Q Public who won't manage anything more than a pull through sharpener but not a high standard from a knife knut POV.

And this isn't what Mudguard suggested in his first post.

So what I have seen is that most people seem to gravitate at one point or another towards a swiss army (mostly an alox soldier model, designed since the 60's and a milestone for the now gigantic knife maker Victorinox).

I appears to me that the set of tools, along with the blade length, weight and overall tough construction really is most of what we all look for. Yea it may be in the larger side for some and I have debated about the size of blade making people uneasy, but just like in the punch or awl works fantastically as a secondary blade when opening packages or letters in public.

I hate to admit it (Because I love the bone handles, delrin and carbon steel as it ages) but this design and overall construction to me hits the nail right on the head. What do you all feel about it.

We all don't gravitate to SAKs and they aren't universally the best.

Make that claim in the General forum and lots of folks who rely on modern one hand openers in their working life will (correctly) tell you that the SAK won't do what they rely on a pocket knife for on the job site.

Make that claim in the Multi-Tool forum and you'll get a lot of people agreeing and a lot of people disagreeing. And some of the people disagreeing will be arguing that the Vic Leatherman style multi-tool is the best, most useful collection of tools.

Make the claim in the Outdoors forum and again, you'll get a decidedly split vote. Lots of people like them. Lots don't. Here's a suggestion. Go to your local REI and check out the amount of display real estate devoted to Victorinox. They're loosing ground fast in the outdoor market, one of the reasons they killed off Wegner to prevent brand dilution in a tougher global market (their words, not mine).

We could discuss it until the cows come home, but when you look at the total world wide sales figures, the numbers tell the tale. Just like the Toyota Corolla is the worlds most popular car, there's a reason. Most people, most human beings that need an item, and are not enthusiasts, don't care about much besides price point and quality. The guy looking to go get to work, drop off his kid at school on the way, and home again is looking for a the best buy for his money. Toyota sells more cars than Audi, Porshe, and Jaguar all put together for that reason.

The regular Joe car buyer is just like the regular Joe who buys a knife. He's not an enthusiast, he's not obsessed with the latest steel, or what movie/TV show has a character using that certain knife. All he wants is a pocket knife that will work.

I sort of think that McGuiver helped bump Victorinox sales!

Again, there's no disagreement. Victorinox produces the most popular consumer targeted knives in the world. No dispute on that front.

Just noting that a) "most popular" <> "best" and b) we can't really discuss the issue here in this forum without running afoul of the charter. It's a better discussion to have in the General forum, imo.

 

[Carbon12]

I wondered how long before MacGyver was mentioned!

In my opinion, there is no denying the exceptional versatility of a design ahead of its time.

However, whether it is the ultimate pocketknife or not is probably irrelevant to most BF knife nuts. Let's not pretend most of us would be satisfied with only SAK's in our obsessive collections, except for MacGyver of course, who seemed to have a different one every episode.

 

[sodak]

I sort of think that McGuiver helped bump Victorinox sales!

Unless you were in the Military when that show was on. Our opinion of that guy, well, I can't say it out of decorum.

 

[jackknife]

Unless you were in the Military when that show was on. Our opinion of that guy, well, I can't say it out of decorum.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Yeah, weren't military at that time, but we had our thoughts about it, and it wasn't good. When I think of SAK's, I prefer to think of real hero's like General Chuck Yeager, Peter Capstick, Charles Lindbergh, and William Moran. I always thought it a bit funny that Bill Moran, who could make any knife he wanted, and most of the time carried one of his own knives on his belt, carried a SAK and used it for opening his mail and many odd jobs that came up.

 

[leghog]

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

Yeah, weren't military at that time, but we had our thoughts about it, and it wasn't good. When I think of SAK's, I prefer to think of real hero's like General Chuck Yeager, Peter Capstick, Charles Lindbergh, and William Moran. I always thought it a bit funny that Bill Moran, who could make any knife he wanted, and most of the time carried one of his own knives on his belt, carried a SAK and used it for opening his mail and many odd jobs that came up.

The popularity of the SAK in the USA was largely due to the U.S. military after WW2 when they were sold across the PX/BX system after the GIs fell in love with them.

SAKs have been to the top of Everest, to the North Pole, to the moon. Heck there was even one with Gary Powers when the Rooskies shot his U2 out of the sky. It is standard issue in NASA and has flown into space scores of time. There is probably no place man has been or explored that the SAK hasn't. It has even been in the depths of the Mariana Trench. It is what it is, it does it's job extremely well, and is trusted to do so. That reputation was hard-earned and is well deserved.

If I have pants on there's greater than a 99% chance I have a SAK on me.

 

[jackknife]

The popularity of the SAK in the USA was largely due to the U.S. military after WW2 when they were sold across the PX/BX system after the GIs fell in love with them.

That's when I had my very first brush with SAK's. I was in the army, and I had left my old boy scout knife at home because I didn't want to get it swiped in the barracks. My dad gave it to me when I was 12, so it had some sentimental value to it by then. I just used the issue ML-k all steel scout knife our supply room had. Then one day I went into town, and there in a shop window was the giant red moving SAK display. Inside I found a case full of gleaming red handle SAK's in all kinds of configurations. It was 1969 and I was a young GI, and I got my first Victorinox. It was so well finished, so smooth, it kind of put my issue knife to shame. Since then I always have one around, and it's my go-to flying on vacation knife.

 

[SAK Guy]

The popularity of the SAK in the USA was largely due to the U.S. military after WW2 when they were sold across the PX/BX system after the GIs fell in love with them.

SAKs have been to the top of Everest, to the North Pole, to the moon. Heck there was even one with Gary Powers when the Rooskies shot his U2 out of the sky. It is standard issue in NASA and has flown into space scores of time. There is probably no place man has been or explored that the SAK hasn't. It has even been in the depths of the Mariana Trench. It is what it is, it does it's job extremely well, and is trusted to do so. That reputation was hard-earned and is well deserved.

If I have pants on there's greater than a 99% chance I have a SAK on me.

I had planned a similar response LH but you nailed it much better than I could!!! :thumbup::thumbup:
SAK is an iconic brand!!!!

BTW, "If I have pants on there's greater than a 99% chance I have a SAK on me",

No pants, no problem!!!

 

[sodak]

No pants, no problem!!!

I was hesitant to click on the picture with that remark, but all is good!

 

[pinnah]

Guys, I think we're in raging agreement on many points.

I totally agree that among traditional slip joints, the camper/SAK style is the most useful, by far. I grew up with Ulster BSA knives and if I'm going to carry a multi-spring slip joint, I don't see the appeal of the jack knife, the congress or stockman compared to the camper.

I also totally agree that during the WWII to Vietnam era, Victorinox came to essentially corner the market on campers, so much so that SAK is really the preferred term among most folks. I think they did this in large measure by modernizing their production and their designs, which is exactly why Carl and so many other military folks set aside their standard issue "Demo" knives for SAKs. Same thing was happening in the backpacking/climbing circles. The SAK became *THE* backpacking/climbing knife in that era.

Where I think our opinions may diverge is in our understanding of the current market.

My sense is that the knife market changed dramatically in the early 80s. In 1981, Spyderco introduced the CO1 Worker, which followed the tradition of Spanish Navaja and Buck 110 by combing both hard use utility and martial capabilities in a locking single bladed folder and the "modern tatical folder" was born. And in 1983, Leatherman introduced the first folding pliers style mutli-tool with his Personal Survival Tool (PST).

My sense is that among military/police/first responders, among tradesman of all sort and among outdoorsman/backpackers/climbers that modern single blade locking knives and Leatherman-style multi-tools have largely displaced (or are in the process of displacing) the camper/SAK style pocket knife.

I wager that if you were able to poll deployed troops from the Gulf Wars and Afghanistan that we would find that Leatherman style multi-tools outnumbered SAK styled pocket knives by a huge margin. I'll bet it is more than 5:1. You can see this dominance in any hardware or sporting goods shop (and I suspect at any PX). Look at the amount of retail space devoted to modern locking folders and Leatherman style multi-tools. They've come to dominate the market.

I should mention that I'm a bit skeptical about the sheer numbers argument as applied to Victorinox. I suspect (none of us have access these numbers I think) that if you subtract out the key ring sized knives like the Classic and a few others and just looked at the numbers for what we normally consider to be a "pocket knife", that Victorinox would no longer be the #1 knife maker. I'm recognizing the massive popularity of the Vic Classic here but also noting that this popularity inflates the numbers and shouldn't be used when judging the popularity of Victorinox (larger) pocket knives compared to other utility oriented pocket knifes.

Where's Victorinox heading as a company?

First, the official Swiss Army Soldier model has been updated. In effect, they're copying Spyderco now.

Second, they've jumped into the true multi-tool business with both feet. In effect, they're copying Leatherman now.

None of this negates the utility of the classic SAK style if we restrict our consideration to traditional pocket knives. It's still true. It's just that the utility knife market has gone beyond traditional designs.

 

[leghog]

Where I think our opinions may diverge is in our understanding of the current market.....

Joe Knife Owner the world over outnumber military and first responders, and it is in that market that SAK manufactures 35,000,000 knives each year. 35 Million regardless of model. Probably still rivals the total production of all quality manufacturers (non-$3 POS) multi-tools made in any given year.

 

[Peregrin]

None of this negates the utility of the classic SAK style if we restrict our consideration to traditional pocket knives. It's still true. It's just that the utility knife market has gone beyond traditional designs.

We've allowed the SAK threads in the Traditional forum because in so many parts of the world they are as traditional as it gets. The more modern or multitool SAKs are really outside the emphasis of this forum. There is a dedicated sub forum for all things multi-tool, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/786-Multi-tools-amp-Multi-purpose-Knives. Let's try and remember that. We need to key in on the SAK traditional patterns. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular. It just seemed like a good time and place to mention it.

 

[jackknife]

Never mind.

 

[mudguard]

Thank you Gary. So does anyone have any good stories about their traditional SAKs? I would love to see some we'll work alox knives owned and used by people on this forum. I know you all have one and carry it often lets put some eye candy out there.

We've allowed the SAK threads in the Traditional forum because in so many parts of the world they are as traditional as it gets. The more modern or multitool SAKs are really outside the emphasis of this forum. There is a dedicated sub forum for all things multi-tool, http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/786-Multi-tools-amp-Multi-purpose-Knives. Let's try and remember that. We need to key in on the SAK traditional patterns. This isn't aimed at anyone in particular. It just seemed like a good time and place to mention it.

 

[300Six]

I've never had pocket knives that weren't SAKs after finding the first one. We're going back to 1965. The price is right, the blades can be made plenty sharp, tools are beautifully engineered and you can afford to keep a couple of spares on hand in case of loss, or for gifts to others that suddenly discover just how handy a SAK is.

 

[SAK Guy]

Thank you Gary. So does anyone have any good stories about their traditional SAKs? I would love to see some we'll work alox knives owned and used by people on this forum. I know you all have one and carry it often lets put some eye candy out there.

My usual EDC Pioneer.

My orig Pioneer (from 83, with a filed off keyring) and one of my few remaining knives after the '06 wildfire.

My "just broke in" Farmer...I'm the 3rd owner of it.

Seeing "RED"...

Gratuitous mixed ALOX pic:

And some Swiss Bianco goodness:

 

[jackknife]

Thank you Gary. So does anyone have any good stories about their traditional SAKs? I would love to see some we'll work alox knives owned and used by people on this forum. I know you all have one and carry it often lets put some eye candy out there.

My SAK's are my go-to travel knife. Since I don't feel like loosing my precious to a sticky handed TSA luggage nazi, I just fly knife less and either buy a ask when I get there, or ship myself one. Last time we all had the cousins reunion in Key West, I shipped a Vic recruit down to myself. Checking in, I picked up my package, and for the next week the recruit did everything a pocket knife could do, and then some. Fishing, it cut squid for bait, night times it slice limes to go in the ice cold gin and tonics or Corona's. The bottle opener popped the Corona's. About halfway through the vacation, the rented Honda motor scooter was running like dog poo, so I got some Gumout at the local K-Mart, sprayed a bunch down the carb while holding the throttle open, and used the SAK screw driver to re-adjust the air/fuel mix. At the beach, it helped deal with sandwich makings, and the night it was my turn to cook dinner, it did kitchen duty out on the patio where the grill was. When I left, I gifted it too to the young Cuban guy who was the grounds keeper. He was amazed. He didn't speak much English, but got the idea. He went running off to show it to Mona's son who is the manager of the Southernmost Guest house, yelling excitedly, "Jefe, Jefe! Look what I get!" He was very proud of his new SAK.

Last summer, when we took our vacation to Oregon, I mailed myself a Vic camper, being unsure of the terrain and wanting a saw in case. I could have saved myself the trouble. Much more civilized than I anticipated, but the SAK did come in as handy there as in Key West. Cooking, grilling, and miscellaneous duties. A few small repairs on the log home we had rented, and sandwich making afield on day trips to the Redwoods, and as a fishing knife on the Rogue River. Son in law JohnC had a visitors license, and caught a nice salmon from the rogue, so I did it up on the grill. The Gas grill had a three burner Propane set up, and one of the dials was hinkey. Kind of stripped, suit wouldn't turn, just spun on t's stud. I scrounged around and found a piece of plastic that I could trim off a corner, whittle semi round, and bore a hole through with the SAK awl. I used it as a washer under the knob, and tightened it up as much as I could torque the screw with the SAK screw driver. The center dial worked fine then, and the salmon tasted great. When we left, I gave the SAK to the young guy at the Thrifty rental car turn-in. He was as exited as the guy in Florida. He looked at me when I handed him the SAK, and said in a kind of incredulous tone, "Like for real, dude? You're really giving me a Swiss Army knife?" People love to get a SAK gifted to them.

Two vacations, two small repairs with just a few tools on the SAK. A regular pocket knife just would not have done it.

 

[Woodrow F Call]

Luckily, I had my Farmer squirreled away so I could make a couple of holes to better secure my gear. Cleaning out the hunting cabin for the season.