Didn't somebody say a cougar couldn't take a dog?

[Bandogge]

I'm curious what breed you do consider the "toughest"?

That question is most often asked by people whom only know thaye want the most bad ass MoFo known to tie on the end of a leash... People for whom goldfish ownership would be much more appropriate.

What does toughest mean to you?

Many breeds have representatives one would consider tough... Patterdale Terriers (Fells, for those in the UK) will routinely go to ground and engage quarry twice their size. They are often very game, meaning they will go against grave injury, exhaustion, overwelming odds... without blinking.

Of couse... Ranging around 9 to 12 pounds, their ability to stop a man is not a strong point, but one look at a good, WORKING Patt will tell you these dogs are tough as rust.

"Tough" dogs in my eye, are the dogs that have historically been given tremendous tasking, and, as either a type, or breed, have remained true to working form.

CO's are very capable animals, gifted with a STRONG aversion to strangers (This is one of the only two breeds NOT to be touched by judges at FCI meets, the other being the Fila. How do you think this translates to a strange vet grabbing a 140 pound adolescent Ovcharka during an examination, or being dropped off for a week at the knl. while the family is away?), Large size, and immense drive given the right, or wrong, set of circumstances.

THe dogs are known for lightning quick defensive responses... There is a saying in Russia: "A Rottweiler will keep you safe from a punk, and an Ovcharka will keep you safe from a punk with a Rottweiler."

THe same could be said for many dogs within their working context.

Nice looking AB,my wife and I are looking to get a dog,we have a 3 year old child,do you consider an AB a good choice?

AB's are a breed very much in trouble. THere are good working examples of the breed out there, but they are few and far between.

Oversized, sloppy, fear-aggresive dogs with no drive and no heart are pretty much the hallmark of the AB presently, along with the GSD, Presa...

Popularity doest these dogs no good at all, and people looking for a pet should buy a pet.

Working dogs need work and need a working env. to thrive and be proven worthy of the work our ancestors did with these animals.

I'm not familiar with what you care to do with this dog at all... But unless it includes serious work, either in protection, sport, hunting, weight pulling... I would much rather advise you to addopt a dog in need from a good adoption group or shelter.

/rant off.

 

[batosai117]

Of couse... Ranging around 9 to 12 pounds, their ability to stop a man is not a strong point, but one look at a good, WORKING Patt will tell you these dogs are tough as rust.

Interesting, I didn't know that. Dogs have always been a breed to keep on amazing me with their devotion, loyalty, and hard work.

Man's two best friends before Eve came along was his Knife and his Dog .

 

[BASIC]

Bandogge thanks for the response.I want a dog that will protect my wife and child and also not be afraid that the dog will become a threat to them.Weight pulling sounds neat.I'm a bit aware of breeding problems with various breeds,a friend had a Dogo with a bunch of problems.What would you suggest?

 

[skammer]

Bandogge thanks for the response.I want a dog that will protect my wife and child and also not be afraid that the dog will become a threat to them.Weight pulling sounds neat.I'm a bit aware of breeding problems with various breeds,a friend had a Dogo with a bunch of problems.What would you suggest?

Its a fine line what you ask.

A dog maybe? safe around your family, protect the kids from strangers but dont forget visitors adults and children are strangers. You open yourself up to liability and can NEVER be sure what a protective breed will do.

Get a lab, a gun and alarm system.

Skam

 

[Bandogge]

Bandogge thanks for the response.I want a dog that will protect my wife and child and also not be afraid that the dog will become a threat to them.Weight pulling sounds neat.I'm a bit aware of breeding problems with various breeds,a friend had a Dogo with a bunch of problems.What would you suggest?

Putting it in context, I have been around working dogs all my life.

Presently training several personal and client dogs in personal protection, have in the past participated in Sch. anf French Ring as well.

I have been catching dogs (Decoying) for over ten years.

I usually tell victims of violent crime and the like to invest in a firearm and TRAINING before a dog.

A dog is not a machine... It is not something one can put away... A part of your life needs to be devoted to ownership, SERIOUS, ever-on-going training... Life can be much more rewarding for those whom enjoy dog ownership, but you HAVE to be that kind of person.

Even when it comes to dogs I would consider ready for street work... That will engage anything with a heartbeat, with DRIVE, when told... That has been proofed in real life scenarios, multiple assailants... It's not a magic shield against all the bads of the world (False security is the most dangereous thing...), and ANYBODY whom does not advocate LAYERED defense is not worth listening to... I trust my two dogs as fully capable man-stoppers... Hell, the AB I live with has a justified live bite already. BUT, that does not stop me from keeping a scatter-gun in the bedroom, along with a 10mm... Keeping steel on me even when I have a dog...

I believe trusting any breed as a "Natural guardian" is to set yourself up for a world of hurt. If any breeder tells you their breed/dogs will protect without training tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.

Best case, the perp begs for his life while he's getting worked over, you cannot control your animal and get sued for excessive force after your dog kills the fuker.

If you REALLY have the time necessary to invest in training several times a week for the entirety of the dog's life, become a sound strategic dog handler in regards to safety and protection... Have the tools to accepts a canine partner that may try to dominate any member of your family... (What happens if your new charge growls at your three year old for locking eyes? Do you have the "tools" you need to teach a dog to become completely subserviant to his pack and lethal on specific stimuli/request?)

What happens when your kid's best friend takles him in play in front of the dog?

What happens when you take a vacation and the knl. cannot get the dog to accept food because it is poison-proofed?

What happens when you and your wife play around on the couch and the dog starts giving you the stink eye?

What happens when you send your dog to get killed in active gunfire so you can get the three second window to gather your kin and jet?

I'm not trying to propel you away from dog ownership... Deny the effectiveness of a WELL-TRAINED dog OF PROPER DRIVE AND TEMP. to be an effective man-stopper... What I'm trying to say is:

EVERY DOG IS A MAJOR FINANCIAL TIME/HEART/FINANCIAL INVESTMENT.

NO BREED PRODUCES WORKING DOGS. BREEDS PRODUCE SOME INDIVIDUALS THAT HAVE THE ABILITY TO BECOME WORKING DOGS.

THERE IS NO GUARATEE DOG OF BREED X WILL BECOME A GOOD DOG. BREEDING PROGRAM, PARENTS... ARE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN BREED.

EVERY DOG CAN BE KILLED.

If you see a working canine as what one really is, and ypu care to further discuss, outline living conditions, habits, env, expectations (Defend from people and critters? Just people? Just animals?...)

American Bulldogs can be great working protection dogs in the right conditions, or a huge liability and a pain in the ass... It really depends on the particulars on life, env, and expectation.

Better a dog that fits you and yours than trying to make a dog you "like" fit...

 

[Bandogge]

You open yourself up to liability and can NEVER be sure what a protective breed will do.

Not exactly true, but... Most people do not have ANY idea what it takes to proof a dog to everything it will see in real life.

A safe, trained man-stopper CAN be bred and trained, but there are NO shortcuts... That's where the ball is often dropped, IMO.

 

[skammer]

Not exactly true, but... Most people do not have ANY idea what it takes to proof a dog to everything it will see in real life.

A safe, trained man-stopper CAN be bred and trained, but there are NO shortcuts... That's where the ball is often dropped, IMO.

YOu can never 100% proof a dog. EVERY LEO dog handler I know (8) admits they are not fully reliable. A portion of their wild side has been reactivated never to be turned off again. Its why many LEO mastoppers are put down after their service as they are unsuitable as pets.

YOu train a dog to attack humans you take your chances its that simple.

Skam

 

[Bandogge]

Skammer,

All dogs bite.

Proper training lessens the chance of a dog going off on improper stimuli, it does not increase it.

The reason many Police K9's get put down after service is multi-faceted, but includes:

- Piss-poor training, for the vast majority of American Service K9's.
- Dogs that are not suited for the work being forced into it.
- Liability that follows the K9 after service but that the trainers do
not want to be responsible for.

Man-work has NOTHING to do with "re-activating a wild side"... In fact, the action of engaging a fully passive target whom has done nothing physical to "harm" either dog or owner is about as far from natural behaviour as one can get... As is the will of many dogs to stay in a fight against an aggresor after suffering severe, sometimes fatal damage. Wild instinct dictates MINIMIZING harm to one's self, not laying it down for an Alpha member.

This is why man work is in essence Obedience work, and why many dog trainers refer to it as such in context.

A dog of proper drive for man work is not TRAINED to engage... This is drive which cannot be built... The dog either has it, or does not.

Training encompases teaching the dogs under what parameters and stimuli this behaviour is acceptable... No more or less.

 

[Horse]

"Man-work has NOTHING to do with "re-activating a wild side"... In fact, the action of engaging a fully passive target whom has done nothing physical to "harm" either dog or owner is about as far from natural behaviour as one can get... As is the will of many dogs to stay in a fight against an aggresor after suffering severe, sometimes fatal damage. Wild instinct dictates MINIMIZING harm to one's self, not laying it down for an Alpha member"

Thank you for this- this is the best thing written in this thread, and is the key to the Cougar issue if read crefully.

 

[skammer]

"Man-work has NOTHING to do with "re-activating a wild side"... In fact, the action of engaging a fully passive target whom has done nothing physical to "harm" either dog or owner is about as far from natural behaviour as one can get... As is the will of many dogs to stay in a fight against an aggresor after suffering severe, sometimes fatal damage. Wild instinct dictates MINIMIZING harm to one's self, not laying it down for an Alpha member"

.

Incorrect a sub alpha male with the attack instinct tapped will protect the heirarchy no matter what the threat or circumstance, if the alpha dog sends body language its a done deal. The difference is will your dog understand when its appropriate as non threatening triggers will trigger. Domestication has merely subdued the instinct. No different than humans, when the right buttons are pushed we are all capable of nasty business.

The K9 units I deal with are the best in the biz and certified at the highest levels there is so this point is bunk. Nothing is 100% there is no dog this reliable no matter what the training or breed.

Spent too many years and generations in my family breeding and training dogs to consider any of this.

Skam

 

[lmalterna]

Bandogge,
Spent some time reading at ThunderHawk about the Ovcharkas- amazing animals. I am not suited to the task of traning one but they are truly amazing.

As far as putting down former service dogs- I am damned glad we don't do that with post combat PTSS. I would love to own something akin to these Ovcharka, I would scrape the money and it would get all the time I have but I am willing to admit when something is too much for me. Maybe I am just getting mellow in my old age. Or perhaps I am becoming "domesticated"

"Domestication has merely subdued the instinct. No different than humans, when the right buttons are pushed we are all capable of nasty business."

I like that.

2Door

 

[TWBryan]

I would never want a dog to protect me. I think it's wrong to ask something of a dog that you're afraid to do yourself. Better to get competent instruction and develop eyes in the back of your head. Just my .02

 

[batosai117]

I would never want a dog to protect me. I think it's wrong to ask something of a dog that you're afraid to do yourself. Better to get competent instruction and develop eyes in the back of your head. Just my .02

I hear ya, I wouldn't want to have my dog fighting for his life and mine while I run off to safety, what kind of loyalty is that? Not trying to start conflict, just my opinion. Something similar to what I said in my earlier post on page 2 when we were all still talking about cougers and fending off attacks,

"I believe that a faithful, good size dog and a determined owner (the kind of owner that wouldn't run and leave their dog for dinner) could fend themselves if need be from an attack whether it be a big Cat or pack of wolves."

 

[BASIC]

Its a fine line what you ask.

A dog maybe? safe around your family, protect the kids from strangers but dont forget visitors adults and children are strangers. You open yourself up to liability and can NEVER be sure what a protective breed will do.

Get a lab, a gun and alarm system.

Skam

I think the Lab is sounding better and better or maybe a Chessie.Great advise from everyone,thankyou.

 

[JackBauer24]

My5lb yorki is 100% meaner than my 100lb German Shepherd Dog. Not really relavent, just what popped into my head.

the shepherd would piss himself and run at the site of a cat > 50lbs.

 

[runningboar]

I think the Lab is sounding better and better or maybe a Chessie.Great advise from everyone,thankyou.

Chessies can be very aggressive and very stubborn, even though they look like labs their temperament is very different. Chris

 

[BASIC]

Chris,I 've heard someone describe a Cheesie as Rott trapped in a Labs body.Theres a Chessie breeder in our area that does breed nice dogs,I would be interested in a breeder with yellow "American"labs though.

 

[skammer]

Chris,I 've heard someone describe a Cheesie as Rott trapped in a Labs body.Theres a Chessie in our area that does breed nice dogs,I would be interested in a breeder with yellow "American"labs though.

Cheesies are not rotts in a labs body, they are James Dean in a labs body. They have their own way of doin things.

LAbs are big enough to cause concern for anyone thinking of breaking in especially black labs. Something about black dogs that scare people. All three color of labs are 100% the same dog just different colors. All three colors can come in the same litter.

Many hunters swear by black labs being better but this is not proven.

Labs are not the easiest pups to deal with they take a long time to mature and are very bouncy for a few years. They need strong leadership, early training and socialization and LOTS of exercise. They are best for an active outdoor household that will include them both inside and outside the home. With a good foundation of training there is no better family dogs and they are the best with children bar none. Never hit any dog especially a lab as they will hold it against you due to their gentle nature. American labs are more high strung than the shorter stockier English labs.

They do shed but are not heavy shedders and their fur is a dream for the bush as nothing sticks to it unlike golden retrievers.

I personally like black labradors but any flavor will do.

Any questions just PM. My family has bred them for 45 yrs.

Skam

 

[BASIC]

Skam,thankyou,I don't have a PM privlage,I'll try to E-Mail you but I sometimes have a problem with it.I'll send you one now,thanks again.

 

[Guyon]

Got a link to Godzilla versus Mothra?