Do the ethics of a knife maker/company matter to you?

[johnu2]

ethics do matter tom me but I will decide what is ethical or unethical to me and won't be swayed by politics of personal opinions expressed here or elsewhere. You don't have to read very far into a post on knives to know whether you are hearing valid arguments about a product or just biased personal opinions.

Every story has two sides

This is how I feel as well

 

[4 Ranges]

"This question begs another, how do you define ethical behavior?"

Very good question, and something that needs clarification.

IMHO:

- What if a company treats their customers well, makes a great product...but treats their employees very badly?

- What if a company treats both customers and employees very well, but the product is not good? Would you still buy their product, even though they're one of the "good guys?"

- What if a company treats everyone well, has a great product, but the owner has a very different POLITICAL view than you? Believed in "gun control" or "gay marriage?" What then?

- What if a company is one of the good guys, has a great product, and you have a collection of their products that your treasure...then changes management? Management has new policies, negative marketing, and bad service? What do you do with your collection?

A knife is a tool that's supposed to serve your needs, plain and simple. A company is supposed to stand by its product with a good warranty. Anything BEYOND that, you're no longer looking at the quality of the knife. You're looking at something else.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Sal's name at the bottom of the screen! Great to see a genuine good guy participating in a thread like this! Not too many owners of knife companies are willing to spend as much time with their ELU's, but Sal does, consistently. When he says that he values the input of his ELU's, he means it. That, to me, shows a person (and a company) with ethics!

Cheers, Sal!:thumbup:

Regards,
3G

 

[eburon]

Yeah, Sal does a great job, but he would gain my utmost respect with a Milli with steel liners and a frame lock ;-).

 

[3Guardsmen]

Yeah, Sal does a great job, but he would gain my utmost respect with a Milli with steel liners and a frame lock ;-).

Well, if he doesn't make it, at the very least, he's more likely to take it under consideration and actually discuss it with you than any other manufacturer would be.

Regards,
3G

 

[kgd]

"A knife is a tool that's supposed to serve your needs, plain and simple. A company is supposed to stand by its product with a good warranty. Anything BEYOND that, you're no longer looking at the quality of the knife. You're looking at something else.

Lots of IMO's in that post! If you limit your expectations for any company than it is likely that such companies will live up to your expectations.

Its my money and I can choose what I want to support. For myself, I do not care what the political or religious leanings of a company and its management are as long as it doesn't only worship currency and profits. I want the company to stand by its product, support its customers and stand by its employees. I want it to have a mission statement and stick by it. I want the corporation to behave as a good citizen in the nation and community that it serves; that means giving back to its community through taxes as well as contributions and/or donations when times are good.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Great points, Kgd!:thumbup:

I think that where one's opinon falls on the question of ethics on the part of knifemakers/manufacturers depends on entirely on one's passion for this hobby and the knife community as a whole. I think it is also where the line is drawn between the 'tool user' and the 'collector'. For some, knives are a serious hobby and a source of great pride. Those are the people, in my opinion, who are more likely to evaluate the ethics of the maker they choose to buy from. For others, knives are merely a tool to be used and then discarded. For them, I don't think ethics on the part of the maker count quite as much as getting a 'good deal'.

My $.02,
3G

 

[Halfneck]

Yeah, Sal does a great job, but he would gain my utmost respect with a Milli with steel liners and a frame lock ;-).

Actually I saw something over at Spyderco's forum mentioning a possible Sprint Run of a Frame-lock Military.

kgd - Very good points made. After that it comes down to personal opinion & experience.

 

[tirod3]

Really? Because the thing that pushed me over the top with Mick Strider was that a customer bought one of his knifes on the secondary market and it was awful, bad grinds and heat marks on the edge looking like it may have hurt the heat treat (the edge at the tip was purple)and he posted on the forums asking if this was normal for a Strider knife.Mick Strider came on and called him all kinds of names and cussed him out.I said to myself right then I would not own a Strider if you gave me one.

IIRC that knife was ID'd as being made from stolen parts off the shop floor.

That doesn't change the nature of the conversation that was held, however. It does show that some people don't automatically get the full boat of social graces in internet correspondence by graduating high school.

That wraps back to ethics - is it ethical to be ticked off because a customer buys a secondhand knife and blames the maker? Is it ok for the maker to answer the complaint as honestly as he feels, or should he just smooze that over and kiss up?

If you work retail, how do you take criticism from customers? After all, we all know the customer always thinks he's right. How many of us appreciate a no-nothing complaining about their broken expectations and demanding special treatment?

I know the first time I handled it a little worse than I could - and learned better. After 30 years of dealing with the public, I've experienced that, as a whole, customer ethics are a lot lower than manufacturers. It's because they have NO clue what they are talking about, and want their expectations met, not their needs.

If you are buying a knife, you NEED a durable, well made, and sharp tool. You DON'T need a veneer of warm fuzzy feelings that you have made the world a better place for buying Brand X, because that emotion cuts nothing.

Demanding a maker conform to personal expectations is pretty immature. If you don't appreciate the style, markings, or marketing, OK. No problem. To generate a storm of hate because of it, well, that's going out of the way.

Again, calculating a checklist of personal ethics that each item has to conform to is rare. If you don't apply it across the board to all your purchases, don't be surprised if someone calls you a hypocrite and unethical.

 

[Toddzio]

I would like to make a point that Politics and Ethics are not the same thing. I am a Strong Progressive Democrat, I am the only knife maker I know who is a Democrat. Other knife makers share their knowledge with me and I with them, because that is the ethical thing to do. I think what happened to the Cooper Firearms president (He was forced to resign over his support for Obama) really shows the trouble our nation is in. I am glad that this thread, and by most part the knife making industry has not fallen prey to that conflict.

 

[Fort Henry Custom Knives]

Ethics most certainly matter to me. I have no use for any product by a knife Maker or Company that has no Ethics.

For those that might need a refresher - Wikipedia defines normative ethics as "moral standards that tell us how to judge right from wrong, or good from bad, and how to live moral lives. This may involve articulating the character or good habits that we should acquire, the duties that we should follow, or the consequences of our actions on ourselves and others."

So lieing, cheating, stealing all reflect poor character and unethical behavior.

I see 420 blades and FRN grips at $60 and wonder why people line up to get fleeced.

Interesting, I see folks clammering to pay $300-$800 of their hard earned dollars for Water Jet cut Tiger Striped Bar Stock with String for a handle and wonder the same thing.

I would much rather support the vast majority who give back to the community, represent it well and conduct themselves with the level of integrity that is the norm of the experience I have had.

If all I had was an interest in was a few knives, I might feel differently.

If I am buying a knife as a work of art or collectors item that I might someday want to sell and not take a bath on, you can bet that the person behind the knife is important in that decision. Spending a thousand or several thousand on anything without considering where it came and the background of who made it is pretty short sighted in my opinion whether it is a knife or a hvac system.

Yep!!

 

[rio]

"This question begs another, how do you define ethical behavior?"

Very good question, and something that needs clarification.

IMHO:

- What if a company treats their customers well, makes a great product...but treats their employees very badly?

- What if a company treats both customers and employees very well, but the product is not good? Would you still buy their product, even though they're one of the "good guys?"

- What if a company treats everyone well, has a great product, but the owner has a very different POLITICAL view than you? Believed in "gun control" or "gay marriage?" What then?

- What if a company is one of the good guys, has a great product, and you have a collection of their products that your treasure...then changes management? Management has new policies, negative marketing, and bad service? What do you do with your collection?

A knife is a tool that's supposed to serve your needs, plain and simple. A company is supposed to stand by its product with a good warranty. Anything BEYOND that, you're no longer looking at the quality of the knife. You're looking at something else.[/QUOTE]

very true and a good point.
looking at it from a different point , if the knife was made by a child molester( is just a example) do we look at it the same way as a tool, i think that a knifemakers repution comes along with the tool, i know i am making an extreme example and i don't want to take away your point just simply pointing that is not so black and white. and yes we might be looking at something else but imho it does matter.

 

[udtjim]

I didn't see the thread in question above but IMO when you address a customer or a producer, you owe the other a polite explanation at least to start with. Attitude or lack of it can cure or cause a lot of problems.

I think it's true that a purely user of tools does not consider much more than what he got for his money, IMO that is not a plus or a minus, it's just plain fact. Before I joined this forum, I could not have named you more than a couple of knife makers and none were custom makers. I of course had heard of Lynn Thompson because it's pretty hard not to if you have any interest in knives. I am a collector of user's and pay no attention to knives as a investment money wise. I don't study the ethics of companies unless something specific brings it to my attention, I also recognize politics and try to keep an open mind without letting it fall out. I try at all cost's to avoid not to falling into the keep up with the Jones train of thought.

 

[Gator97]

I guess I am one of those who is looking for a good knife and that something else as well. I won't buy a bad knife even if the company is very good, but in the past and in the future I will refrain from buying knives from the companies and custom makers that I consider bad.
After all, most likely, I can get a comparable knife from someone else, or a better one. Why should I support someone I dislike for their atitude/policies with my hard earned money?

 

[kgd]

Demanding a maker conform to personal expectations is pretty immature.

Perhaps it is pretty immature to call other people immature for acting on their beliefs.

Again, calculating a checklist of personal ethics that each item has to conform to is rare. If you don't apply it across the board to all your purchases, don't be surprised if someone calls you a hypocrite and unethical.

Some people try to make as many decisions as they can as a matter of principle. Then again, take your quote in its opposite, presumably the position you are espousing to, that if you can't apply ethical decisions to all the decisions that you make in life, then you might as well not apply ethics to any decisions you make. That is a pretty silly position to take do you not agree?

Sorry but life is grey and complex. Consumers can be a strong force to enact positive change and arguably are the most likely agents to do so against multinational corps. who can forgo laws and taxes by moving production facilities, funds and assets to locations that they see favor their bottom line but do not necessarily favor consumers. Why is it immature for collections of people to try and enact the change they want through market forces?

 

[TheWayOfTheGun1]

"This question begs another, how do you define ethical behavior?"

Very good question, and something that needs clarification.

IMHO:

- What if a company treats their customers well, makes a great product...but treats their employees very badly?

- What if a company treats both customers and employees very well, but the product is not good? Would you still buy their product, even though they're one of the "good guys?"

- What if a company treats everyone well, has a great product, but the owner has a very different POLITICAL view than you? Believed in "gun control" or "gay marriage?" What then?

- What if a company is one of the good guys, has a great product, and you have a collection of their products that your treasure...then changes management? Management has new policies, negative marketing, and bad service? What do you do with your collection?

A knife is a tool that's supposed to serve your needs, plain and simple. A company is supposed to stand by its product with a good warranty. Anything BEYOND that, you're no longer looking at the quality of the knife. You're looking at something else.

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

I agree with your statement 100%

As Jesus said "May he who is free from sin, cast the first stone"

My humble .02...It's not for me to judge Mick Strider or what he has done in his personal life, that's Gods job. I'm not concerned with his morality because I know as a God fearing christian I struggle with my decisions and judgements everyday. I know I can't cast stones but feel free to cast stones if you wish....

All I judge is his blades, workmanship and warranty and I have been extremely satisfied with his work and warranty...thats all I will judge.

 

[SPXTrader]

Yes, it matters.

 

[babakanoosh45]

If your worried about your knife manufacturers ethics that much. I am supposing you hold no credit cards do any banking nor do own any cars made on this planet. And I am sure you have no need for perscription drugs. It also must be nice not to need any type of insurance. And to be free from the Democrat / Republican thing must be a godsend!!! It's a knife! It either fits your price range and personal needs or it don't. Ethics are SO like a Coke / Pepsi taste test it's a joke... who's Ethics? Yours Mine Theirs? Get over it already....

 

[alaskanativeson]

I would like to make a point that Politics and Ethics are not the same thing.

I definitely have to agree with that. Ethics and politics are completely separate.

Ethics are SO like a Coke / Pepsi taste test it's a joke... who's Ethics? Yours Mine Theirs? Get over it!!! Already

Ethics can indeed have quite a different meaning to people, but overall I believe there are some behaviors that most everyone can agree with. The idea of someone being a child molester has been raised, I believe that's one that the vast majority of people can agree with as being unethical. If slavery were legal today most people would be outraged and against it on ethical principles. If the Nazi Party of America opened a gun store and sold high quality 1911s for $200 but they had a swastika ground into the slide, how many of you would buy it? In Strider's case, he built his company's reputation because he represented himself to be something he was not, the fact that it was dishonesty about his military record is abhorrant to me. Strider Knives could give their stuff away and I wouldn't take it. They could offer free home service given by a naked Angelina Jolie and I'd turn them down.

Politics is a more complex animal. I won't judge any PERSON off of their political opinions, but I may want to know more about a COMPANY'S politics. I am politically a little to the right of Charlemagne but I have a good friend who is a far left professor that's gayer than a family at Christmas time (his explanation, not mine) but I don't judge his politics or personal choices, I respect his right to choose. On the other hand, a company like Ben & Jerry's gives so much of their financial support to causes I disagree with vehemently that I have never, and will never buy their stuff. Yes, I am as careful as I can be about where my money goes. It doesn't mean that I only by from religious right wing companies, but I do try to support companies I like rather than those I don't.

I don't judge anyone else for where they spend their money, but I am putting in a little effort to put my money where my mouth is. I'm not saying it makes me better than anyone else, it just makes me my own kind of particular.

 

[babakanoosh45]

I'm not lashing out at you Alaska, I'm just saying "Ethics" is a Very Broad concept. It's the glass half full or empty syndrome. I applaud you for spending as much energy as you do in your $$$ wherabouts. Not everyone will be that way. There are things I will and won't do as well. I will never shop at a SAM's Club or WallMart! I don't care if if their giving away Buck 110's to everyone who walks in. But I have my reasons and their mine..