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down2man (George Huang)
- Thread starter DylanMW
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2011
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- 2,090
Then it never happened. That is a speculative, unsubstantiated argument. Literally every single charge against George Huang has been made by a random person with nothing to back it up. Who's got the OP's back? A very one-sided group here. Who's got George Huang's back? A mod at a respected knife forum in Australia, PayPal, and USPS. I understand that everyone is outraged and really wants to help Dylan, but a public lynching based on speculations and unsubstantiated claims is not credible.
1. You say he made a rotten deal that chafed you in Australia. Okay, sure. Show me proof. Don't have any? Then it didn't happen.
2. The OP says George Huang stated outright that he would take full responsibility for any shipping/customs problems. Okay, sure. Show me proof. Don't have any? Then it didn't happen.
3. Every other poster here has claimed that George Huang is secretly and maliciously running a scam empire where he fraudulently steals knives and blames Customs. Okay, sure. Show me proof. Don't have any? Then it didn't happen.
The only charge that I sort of buy is this one: George Huang should have made a greater effort to get the knife from Customs. But even then... what, you mean like the OP has been doing? How far has that gotten him? When things disappear in Customs, they usually can be written off as gone for good. I know that. Some of you know that. George Huang knows that. So he never received the knife. So of course he isn't going to pay for something he didn't receive. No brainer. Who should take the hit in this case? Maybe you can say, "Well... if George was a really sweet guy, he'd go 50/50 with the seller." Well, maybe. But things went south when the OP chose to escalate the matter with PayPal into a claim and then thoroughly trashed George's name here in this thread, spreading bald-faced lies about him and trying to start a public lynching. Remember that George Huang tried for weeks to contact the OP before the PayPal thing. I believe him because the OP has refused to show e-mails proving he responded to any of those attempts by George. If you were trying to contact the seller, and the seller refused to answer your inquiries, wouldn't you take action?
Ask yourself: if you were George Huang at this point, would *you* want to help the OP? I wouldn't. You say you would never deal with George Huang. Why? The mod at the Australian forum has first hand experience with George and bought several knives from him with no problems. There's your proof that he's not running a scam. You believe the OP? The guy who got caught lying bald-face?
Who is more credible and who would I prefer to deal with? Here's what I honestly think -->
George Huang: I believe that if I spelled the terms out very clearly for him and we agreed on how to split the risk, George Huang would honor it. I have no reason to doubt that. It's when I don't do my homework and work under assumptions that deals go wrong. I don't blame George Huang for trying to get the upper hand in a murky situation where the seller has declared total war.
Dylan: I believe that if I spelled the terms out very clearly for him and we agreed on how to split the risk, Dylan still might not understand what he agreed to... or even worse, he would choose to believe whatever he wants to. I believe he might lie to back up his claims. I believe if things went south, he would not honor anything he agreed to. I also believe he has financial problems and is desperately short of cash. Desperate people do desperate things. I would not deal with a desperate man who has nothing to lose and who is willing to lie.
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I thought you bowed out? I think you should, nobody cares to hear anymore of your drivel. If everyone in this thread was as crazy as you are and were in here trying to convince everyone that Dylan is a liar who got what he deserved then you'd be the one guy on Dylan's side. Any reasonable person who reads the thread would believe him. The story isn't in question and never was, both parties were here and told the same story. You just keep repeating the same thing about George never saying he would accept responsibility. Who cares if he didn't say it, he agreed to the terms of the sale.
Dylan, post up your paypal addy, I will donate some $ too. Its a shame that you pay money to have a membership on this site and when you need help getting a cheat to own up and at least split the loss with you the mods don't do a damn thing. If this was arfcom or many other forums I'm on George would have been threatened and then banned if he didn't try to reach some kind of resolution. Guess they only care about important things like chit-chat in for sale threads.
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2011
- Messages
- 2,090
Who cares? Anyone trying to establish who is more credible here: the buyer or seller? It's about credibility. And the seller got caught in a lie.
Well, you and I aren't mods.
I don't know what sites you frequent, but at least one mod from a very respected site has chimed in here in support of George Huang.
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- Joined
- Nov 24, 2011
- Messages
- 31
Mag, fair enough, I haven't provided proof as it is long gone from everyone's email boxes on ABF that knew about it. The fact that I don't provide proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, you seem like an intelligent guy, but that comes across as facile. The event in question wasn't a deal with me, but I knew about it and followed it through pm's. I'm not suggesting George is running a scam empire, but seriously, we all have a fair idea of where the knife is. I have dealt with Australian Customs on numerous occasions (have you actually had any experience with them?) and have found them very cooperative and indeed, they helped me re-export a seized knife back to the USA. I might ask you for proof of your dealings with Australian Customs, but I don't discount your experiences as "it never happened" because you don't provide proof in an initial post. On that point, all this talk of "it never happened" - you don't know me, yet you seem to indicate that I'm somehow falsifying my experiences. As far as the PayPal escalation went, I've only read George's account, maybe I missed something. One last thing that is kind of contradictory with your position is your statement: "When things disappear in Customs, they usually can be written off as gone for good. I know that. Some of you know that. George Huang knows that. So he never received the knife. So of course he isn't going to pay for something he didn't receive."....soooo he never received the knife, because it was seized by customs? That is not a matter for PayPal, as it is neither "lost" nor "stolen". I would love to live in a world where I got two dips at everything as has happened in this case.....
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Lying bald face? Because he said George agreed to accept responsibility for the knife? Which George did by purchasing the knife after Dylan said "its in the shipping companies hands"? You are still so caught up in the most insignificant detail. According to you Dylan saying that George said he agreed to accept responsibility is the worst crime that was committed in this entire thread. Why aren't you focused on George saying the knife was lost and acting like the tracking information was faulty when it was clearly tracked to customs. How about the many Australian members who said they always accept responsibility when they are importing knives, they know the laws and the risk just like George did, and they wouldn't ever try to blame the seller for customs confiscating a knife. That's the honorable way to do business, and George isn't honorable. I hope George at least gives you a reach around for all the love you are showing him in this thread. He sure found his hero in you.
That same mod said this wouldn't even be a thread if he was George. He wouldn't have cheated Dylan like that. All he said was George has had many successful dealings which I don't doubt. But as Dix said, when there are no problems getting the knives through customs George is fine to deal with, but when something goes wrong and its time to take a loss George made sure it was the seller who was left out in the cold.
If George is so righteous why isn't he here doing the defending of himself, I know I would be. That alone shows his character.
- Joined
- Nov 24, 2011
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- 31
Mag, I just saw your edit. I'm not suggesting that George does this on a regular basis, but I have seen a scenario where things did go wrong and he washed his hands of it leaving other people in the lurch. I think my language was possibly a bit strong in my earlier posts and I apologize to George for the POS usage. Kudos to you for sticking up for George, he is obviously a mate of yours, but do you actually know Dylan to make such claims on his character? From the emails I read, he made it clear that it was not his responsibility once it left the USA - a fair charge. He may have used "Postal Service" or whatever, I'm assuming because he hasn't had much experience sending overseas, he didn't understand that the real issue is Customs control here (not the USPS responsibility for loss or theft) - and neither he should. Australian Customs do not hold the exporter responsible for seized goods - it is all on the importer. That's why the Notice of Seizure is sent to the importer and the importer has to make arrangements for re-export, allow it to be disposed of, or the costly and fruitless legal action to get the seized knife back (I believe a 100% failure rate ;-)). To say you never received goods due loss or theft is one thing - which is rightly covered by insurance (if purchased), but to say you never received goods because customs didn't approve of what you were importing is a totally different matter.
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- Joined
- Jul 13, 2011
- Messages
- 2,090
I have zero experience with Australian Customs. But I have had dealings with Customs from other countries, and I would find it very hard to believe that Australian Customs is any different. Customs is a government bureaucracy with a mission to protect borders. They are not in the business of helping people or even being reasonable. As bureaucrats (and I would know because I am one), they are only concerned with enforcing regulations. Maybe you are right. Maybe Australian Customs is an exception to that rule. But I doubt it.
I'm not indicating anything. I don't know you from Adam, and I'm not for or against you. I'm perfectly willing to accept that it happened exactly like you said. Just show me the proof.
Actually, yes. That is exactly what I'm saying, because it is the only crime that was committed in this entire thread.
Probably because he's smarter than me and knows better than to take on an enraged lynch mob head on. I should probably learn a lesson from him, come to think of it...
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- Joined
- Nov 24, 2011
- Messages
- 31
I have zero experience with Australian Customs. But I have had dealings with Customs from other countries, and I would find it very hard to believe that Australian Customs is any different. Customs is a government bureaucracy with a mission to protect borders. They are not in the business of helping people or even being reasonable. As bureaucrats (and I would know because I am one), they are only concerned with enforcing regulations. Maybe you are right. Maybe Australian Customs is an exception to that rule. But I doubt it.
I'm not indicating anything. I don't know you from Adam, and I'm not for or against you. I'm perfectly willing to accept that it happened exactly like you said. Just show me the proof.
Actually, yes. That is exactly what I'm saying, because it is the only crime that was committed in this entire thread.
Probably because he's smarter than me and knows better than to take on an enraged lynch mob head on. I should probably learn a lesson from him, come to think of it...
No worries Mag, I've put my experiences forward and you doubt them, you're free to believe what you wish. I have found that if you operate in a cooperative manner with Customs they cooperate back - they're just people doing a job. I've read of other peoples' experiences on ABF who seem to take an antagonistic approach to their dealings with Customs and I think you can guess what they get back. My experiences with them have all had happy endings, I have proof in the form of a knife that was released to me from seizure, alas I don't have the knife that I was able to re-export to the USA. If you really want to know more, lurk on or sign up to ABF and read the massive thread on post 14 December knife laws - you'd better have a lot of coffee at the ready.
PS. George would be asleep, it's way past my bedtime too.
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Here is what happened with a Strider SnG CC awhile back . I had no idea about international shipping or USPS Express.
George bought the knife from me off of JD forum and paypal'd using the personal option so no fees were added.
I went my post office and asked them if I can track the package to Australia. The guy at the
desk said no. So I sent it USPS priority...So the knife shipped. George did tell me that there may be a problem with customs, and it was never brought up what would happen if the Strider would never make it there safe.
The next day I sold another knife to Chubbyong from Thailand.
He asked if I could send it USPS Express to track it, I said the post office told me I can not track it sending out of country..I asked Lisantica about international shipping, and she confirmed that I could send it that way and get a track number.. I go to the post office, talked with the same clerk, and asked about Express.
He said "Yes you can send it that way."When I said you told me yesterday I couldnt track a package, he responded, "I didn't think you wanted to spend that much to ship it."
I thought to myself what an idiot. So the knife was sent to Thailand, was tracked, and made it there with no problems.
George emailed me about 3-4 weeks later and asked if I heard anything from customs because he never received the knife. I freaked, went to the post office, and they were only able to track it in Philadelphia.
We waited another 2 weeks because George said it could be stuck in customs. Also, I heard from another member that months after shipping his knife to Australia and losing it, it showed up back in his hands.
Long story short, the knife never made it to George, he never asked me to do a refund, he did pay through personal paypal which pretty much wouldn't be able to put in a paypal claim.
Well weeks went by, I emailed him, and I offered to split the difference with him. I refunded half the money back to him cuz I did feel bad, even though I lost the strider plus half the money I sent him.
I learned the hard way, but with our transaction, he only seemed to worry about a lost nice and never once asked me for money.
If I got scammed shame on me...But also if I was not honest, I could of told George I sent him the knife without doing so.
George bought the knife from me off of JD forum and paypal'd using the personal option so no fees were added.
I went my post office and asked them if I can track the package to Australia. The guy at the
desk said no. So I sent it USPS priority...So the knife shipped. George did tell me that there may be a problem with customs, and it was never brought up what would happen if the Strider would never make it there safe.
The next day I sold another knife to Chubbyong from Thailand.
He asked if I could send it USPS Express to track it, I said the post office told me I can not track it sending out of country..I asked Lisantica about international shipping, and she confirmed that I could send it that way and get a track number.. I go to the post office, talked with the same clerk, and asked about Express.
He said "Yes you can send it that way."When I said you told me yesterday I couldnt track a package, he responded, "I didn't think you wanted to spend that much to ship it."
I thought to myself what an idiot. So the knife was sent to Thailand, was tracked, and made it there with no problems.
George emailed me about 3-4 weeks later and asked if I heard anything from customs because he never received the knife. I freaked, went to the post office, and they were only able to track it in Philadelphia.
We waited another 2 weeks because George said it could be stuck in customs. Also, I heard from another member that months after shipping his knife to Australia and losing it, it showed up back in his hands.
Long story short, the knife never made it to George, he never asked me to do a refund, he did pay through personal paypal which pretty much wouldn't be able to put in a paypal claim.
Well weeks went by, I emailed him, and I offered to split the difference with him. I refunded half the money back to him cuz I did feel bad, even though I lost the strider plus half the money I sent him.
I learned the hard way, but with our transaction, he only seemed to worry about a lost nice and never once asked me for money.
If I got scammed shame on me...But also if I was not honest, I could of told George I sent him the knife without doing so.
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 1,792
seems like an easy way to pass this would be to simply tighten up the pivot a bit before you send the knife. Should be as simple as that to make sure that more or less any folder could pass this test.
I hate to post here again, but I'm being dragged in so I'm going to clear up a few things. Firstly, most posters on this thread are supportive of one party or the other, what Mag is trying to show is that things are not so clear cut here and there are "shades of grey". Personally, I'm neither "Team Dylan" or "Team George". This is not a trial, and we are not a jury. We are all by-standers, some of us have do have valid information to contribute, and most of us have learned something here (I certainly learned several new things about Paypal, and will be insisting on "gift option only").
@ Dixi - I'm not familiar with your profile here, but obviously I must know you on ABF. You did remind of this incident a few months ago where George was implicated BY CIRCUMSTANCE ONLY! I will not go into detail, as like you, I was not directly involved but "kept in the loop" via PM. In that instance, as I undestand it, the knife had a manufacturing fault that was so difficult to pick, that it wasn't spotted till after another (3rd party) bought it and played with it for a while. So that was the person who bought it from the person who bought it from George - apparently... In the end, the knife was repaired under warranty. End of story.
Yes, you did miss a few pages back statement by Dylan how he intentionally escalated the Paypal dispute to a Claim - and it was a direct result of this event that he is now out of pocket and George's name is MUD. Again, I'm not defending or accusing anyone, just illustrating that things are not so clear cut here as most believe. Years ago, I was unlucky enough to get scammed by one seller who took my money and simply refused to send the knife by dropping from the forum and destroying the pre-paid mobile number he gave me. THAT was a cheat and a liar and a thief etc. This is not the same!
@ Pry - you are lucky that mods here have such a high tollerance level... If you only knew how much work they do behind the scenes, and on countless threads and PMs EVERY DAY, you wouldn't be so flippant with your comments towards them - but perhapse show some respect and appreciation?
Rant over, KK out.
@ Dixi - I'm not familiar with your profile here, but obviously I must know you on ABF. You did remind of this incident a few months ago where George was implicated BY CIRCUMSTANCE ONLY! I will not go into detail, as like you, I was not directly involved but "kept in the loop" via PM. In that instance, as I undestand it, the knife had a manufacturing fault that was so difficult to pick, that it wasn't spotted till after another (3rd party) bought it and played with it for a while. So that was the person who bought it from the person who bought it from George - apparently... In the end, the knife was repaired under warranty. End of story.
Yes, you did miss a few pages back statement by Dylan how he intentionally escalated the Paypal dispute to a Claim - and it was a direct result of this event that he is now out of pocket and George's name is MUD. Again, I'm not defending or accusing anyone, just illustrating that things are not so clear cut here as most believe. Years ago, I was unlucky enough to get scammed by one seller who took my money and simply refused to send the knife by dropping from the forum and destroying the pre-paid mobile number he gave me. THAT was a cheat and a liar and a thief etc. This is not the same!
@ Pry - you are lucky that mods here have such a high tollerance level... If you only knew how much work they do behind the scenes, and on countless threads and PMs EVERY DAY, you wouldn't be so flippant with your comments towards them - but perhapse show some respect and appreciation?
Rant over, KK out.
Just a bit of info for everyone still with us.
I'm not a pay pal expert but I do have a small side business where I do about 3000 pp transactions a year.
1. The I got it in writing that I am not responsible once it leaves my hands/states oesn't generally hold up with PP. If you can't prove it was delivered, you lose the dispute.
2. Even though Bob seems like a good guy and wants to sneak the knife into the house so ship it to him at work, don't do it. If it is shipped to an unverified address it is as good as undelievered. Make him add the address and verify it or you are SOL
3. Using the gift option to pay for goods is a good way to lose your pp account if things go south. Fee based buisness' tend to hate people who try to avoid fees for using their service. Also asking buyers to pick up the fees isn't allowed either but that is another story.
I almost always purchase with pp using my credit card when I am online. I know that if something doesnt arrive, arrives broken, or isn't what is is supposed to be I will be make whole by pp if the seller isn't a standup person. I've had a few disputes and I've never lost one. I've also never had a dispute filed against me as I follow all the rules.
This is a bad situation where I think that at least the buyer should refund half of the money. He knows the seller did his part. If it were me I would refund it all but that is just me. I know for sure I won't be sending any folders to Australia, sorry Mates - I love ya but I'm not going to risk my bankroll.
I'm not a pay pal expert but I do have a small side business where I do about 3000 pp transactions a year.
1. The I got it in writing that I am not responsible once it leaves my hands/states oesn't generally hold up with PP. If you can't prove it was delivered, you lose the dispute.
2. Even though Bob seems like a good guy and wants to sneak the knife into the house so ship it to him at work, don't do it. If it is shipped to an unverified address it is as good as undelievered. Make him add the address and verify it or you are SOL
3. Using the gift option to pay for goods is a good way to lose your pp account if things go south. Fee based buisness' tend to hate people who try to avoid fees for using their service. Also asking buyers to pick up the fees isn't allowed either but that is another story.
I almost always purchase with pp using my credit card when I am online. I know that if something doesnt arrive, arrives broken, or isn't what is is supposed to be I will be make whole by pp if the seller isn't a standup person. I've had a few disputes and I've never lost one. I've also never had a dispute filed against me as I follow all the rules.
This is a bad situation where I think that at least the buyer should refund half of the money. He knows the seller did his part. If it were me I would refund it all but that is just me. I know for sure I won't be sending any folders to Australia, sorry Mates - I love ya but I'm not going to risk my bankroll.
What are the implications of escalating a PayPal dispute to a claim? This seems to be a big no-no as pointed out by some here
Would it have turned out differently if Dylan did not escalate it?
Ultimately no, but escalating it to a claim forces Paypal to take action quicker. It would make no difference in the end if George refuses to honor his agreement with regards to shipping risk.
- Joined
- Apr 7, 2012
- Messages
- 78
Just my opinion: slandering one's name with no proof is wrong. Matters like this should be resolved on a higher level. Contact administrators, and they can attempt to help you, but unless you have a solid proof, don't come out with accusations because all you're getting right now is a bunch of angry people who don't do much more than discuss the situation. Somehow, I fail to see how that's going to get the matters resolved. Unless somebody gets you your money back, your knife back or finds George and resolves the issue, it's not going anywhere.
Also, claiming a refund when the seller fulfilled his side of agreement is wrong. A seller's job was to send it out and insure the package for as far as the company takes it. Can't blame an American seller for Australian customs' fuckups. Every time you buy something online, it is your responsibility to know the local laws.
So my take on it is both are wrong for handling matters wrong, and Australian customs are the ones to blame. Can't take it up with them? Don't look for others to blame.
Also, claiming a refund when the seller fulfilled his side of agreement is wrong. A seller's job was to send it out and insure the package for as far as the company takes it. Can't blame an American seller for Australian customs' fuckups. Every time you buy something online, it is your responsibility to know the local laws.
So my take on it is both are wrong for handling matters wrong, and Australian customs are the ones to blame. Can't take it up with them? Don't look for others to blame.
- Joined
- May 6, 2010
- Messages
- 1,410
It seems that, from this post in conjunction with the OP's claims, George IS aware of the risk in getting knives to his door and gave himself some lateral movement by paying through regular paypal this time.
Given the OP's lies and exaggerations initially, I would say that it's fair to assume George is preying on the ignorant. I've bumped in to a few LEOs working on cases where people ship drugs at the buyer's risk. From my experience it would seem George is trying to import by volume (in OP's case, asking for a knife to be shipped he HAS PRIOR KNOWLEDGE might not make it through customs) to minimize risk of not getting his contraband. Paypal just sweetened the deal for him.