down2man (George Huang)

[Toxie]

I strongly advise against pursuing criminal charges against George Huang, or trying to get a straight answer or action from Australian Customs, for that matter. I honestly think it's a waste of time. But that's just my 2 cents. If you really want to press charges against George Huang, you'll have to consult with a lawyer familiar with Australian law. And that will cost a pretty penny more than $400.

You have it %100 backwords (for US law). you contact the police for a prosecution, and the DEFENDANT (IE George) has to hire an attorney. The police will tell you if you if you have a prosecutable case or not for FREE. The trouble is that he would have to appear in PERSON for a trial.

A) Very doubtful.

Probably true.

B) He didn't steal anything from you. He got a refund for a knife he never received. The issue with Customs is a quagmire no one has worked out yet. Maybe BF should make some rules about that? I think the current rule is just "buyer beware, seller beware." I might be wrong about that though. Does anyone know?

You're probably wrong. ONce it's been conformed lost to customs it becomes a fraud. That's because the buyer furnished a written agreement to assume liability if the item was taken, and then renegated on that written agreement (and is attempting to permanently deprive the sell of his funds).

This IS a crime (in the US) and I cannot fathom why he isnt banned already. It's also disgraceful that the Aussie bladeforums says "Don't spread this here" as his buisness practices should be (factually) spread about widely.

 

[DylanMW]

It's also disgraceful that the Aussie bladeforums says "Don't spread this here" as his buisness practices should be (factually) spread about widely.

This also shocked me. I personally took time to email the head admin of the ABF and link him to this story.

Want to know his response? "Yes, I know all about it."


What kind of answer is that!? PayPal let him off easy, now admins are letting him off easy. I swear George seems to walk on later.


Maybe the mods can help me out with this but at what point does George get suspended or ban or anything for that matter?

 

[ooitzoo]

You have it %100 backwords (for US law). you contact the police for a prosecution, and the DEFENDANT (IE George) has to hire an attorney. The police will tell you if you if you have a prosecutable case or not for FREE. The trouble is that he would have to appear in PERSON for a trial.

Probably true.


You're probably wrong. ONce it's been conformed lost to customs it becomes a fraud. That's because the buyer furnished a written agreement to assume liability if the item was taken, and then renegated on that written agreement (and is attempting to permanently deprive the sell of his funds).

This IS a crime (in the US) and I cannot fathom why he isnt banned already. It's also disgraceful that the Aussie bladeforums says "Don't spread this here" as his buisness practices should be (factually) spread about widely.

Dear lord. There is so much misinformation here that its actually painful.

Firstly, there is no trial here. No one is (or can) press charges.

Second, you want to try and contact the police in NSW Aus? Let's see what they tell you about this "crime". I think you'll be lucky if they hear you out for more then 30 seconds. That's not to mention that there's a good chance you'll hear something like "you tried to import something illegal into our country...."

Third, how is it fraud? I've yet to see this written statement. I doubt that it actually exists. I understand and agree that the seller thought that it existed. But in actuality that wasn't the case. The buyer NEVER said "I accept responsibility". A lot of this is based on assumption and not facts. One is vague and the other is empirically verifiable.

 

[Toxie]

I dont know why either. I've been here for a long time and this is a clear case of fraud. He should have returned the money, he clearly has both sides of the sotry, will not do his due diligence and refuses responsability.

Disgusting.

 

[pry]

Its unclear that George screwed anyone. Yes, the end result for Dylan is that he's out the money and the knife. However, and this is my understanding, leaving negative feedback for a buyer is a no-no. I'm sure a mod will opine soon enough.

The reality of international shipping is that you have to protect yourself. The buyer isn't out to get you but he can't answer for the actions of his customs office.

The way I've international sales is as follows:

1: Spell out "When the package leaves the US I am no longer responsible." There is no ambiguity in this statement.

As for trying to get him in trouble with customs. I guess you can try that but I doubt you'd be successful at it. I mean, all he needs to say is "I don't know what that is..." Meanwhile its cost you time and money. I recommend trying to work thru this.

Still not clear enough for you? I guess we should let all the aussie members know to go ahead and buy whatever knives they want off the forums, even if they're 95% sure it'll be confiscated, thats ok because they can just file a claim and get their money back, nothing wrong with that right?

Dylan said "once it ships its out of my hands" I know its not technically the same thing but it was still agreed upon. As we now know any emailed agreement is worthless, paypal isn't going to care even if you have emails from the buyer saying "I wont file a claim, I promise to assume all responsibility if its lost/stolen/confiscated". You could just be faking it anyway and send it to paypal.

The buyer is the one trying to IMPORT the knife as has been said many times by many australians in this thread. If I send an illegal knife to AUS customs doesn't come to my house and try to prosecute me. I doubt when customs comes knocking on your door for your illegal importing practices you can just say "i dont know what that is" and they just shrug and go away.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

Australian Customs would be the agency to prosecute this if they so desired. State (ie NSW) are not going to be at all interested as it is a Commonwealth Crime (ie Federal), the knife is not in fact illegal to possess/own here in NSW. Australian Customs already know about the matter so there is nothing else to be gained by trying to poke them (they don't need any poking at all if they have the sh%ts with George).

As for shrugging at the door and saying "I dunno what it is" sorry wont work. Illegal importations are presumptive offenses in that he would need to prove (in Court after he was charged) that he did not in fact arrange the Importation of a Prohibited/Restricted Article. And if for a moment we would be so clueless to think that (should a prosecution be initiated) that the contents of his e-mail/paypal correspondence and postings here would NOT end up in evidence ...well...think again.

Time and time again I tell people here...no knife is worth the risk associated with trying to dupe Customs.

Andy

 

[Toxie]

Dear lord. There is so much misinformation here that its actually painful.

Firstly, there is no trial here. No one is (or can) press charges.

Don't call misinformation if you're patently unqualified to discuss the information. Actually, if this occured from the other end (hence the disclaimer "In the US") he certainly could press charges. I'm an LEO from Michigan, and we have Canadians come here and suffer crime infrequently. They are still allowed to press charges, as no section of the criminal code states that you must be a US citizen to have victim's rights (LSPDA for example). Our Dept even allows faxed reports as long as they are noratized, the person dosen't even have to file a report in person. They FIRST time that they would HAVE to be face-to-face would be at pre-lim hearing, hence the "trial", where the biggest hurdle he would face would be a $2000 flight for a $400 knife. I'm sure australian law differs, but that's how it would work here.

Second, you want to try and contact the police in NSW Aus? Let's see what they tell you about this "crime". I think you'll be lucky if they hear you out for more then 30 seconds. That's not to mention that there's a good chance you'll hear something like "you tried to import something illegal into our country...."

Yet again, if anything is painful it's not MY knowledge. Sure, they MAY dismiss it out of hand. I never said they wouldn't - I just disputed that he would NOT have to contact an atty to report a crime. That's completely incorrect. Secondly, if ANYONE would be prosecuted it would be George, as AUS can't prosecute a US citizen who is in the US, for somthing that isn't illegal in the US.

Third, how is it fraud? I've yet to see this written statement. I doubt that it actually exists. I understand and agree that the seller thought that it existed. But in actuality that wasn't the case. The buyer NEVER said "I accept responsibility". A lot of this is based on assumption and not facts. One is vague and the other is empirically verifiable.

(If it was HERE, in the US) What happened here is that there was a "Larceny by Trick", or a False Representation. George KNEW (or should have known) that there was a high probability that the knife in question is a proscribed item. He failed to properly describe the dangers involved to the shipper, who would NOT be required to know the importation laws, not being bound by them. Additionally, the shipper stated that "Also once it is mailed it's all in the shipping companies hands". This is clearly a disclaimer that shipping is at GEORGE's risk, and by offering assurances and payment he agreed to such terms. George then got a refund on said item when it was seized by AUS Customs, thereby insulating himself from any risk of finantial loss by knowlingly importing a proscribed item.

George knew it was not allowed. George then offered assurances that it was fine, and accepted that the shipper washed his hands of responsability after it was shipped. George then knowlingly got a refund on an item HE knowingly caused to be shipped illegally into the country. Larceny by trick/False Representation.

Sorry Dylan, that's how I would write it if it were here in the US. Paypal really screwed you. You could take them to small claims if that's available locally.

 

[Jaytaylor]

Could this entire situation have been avoided by simply tightening up the pivot?

My last word/s on this.

The OP is righteous and is owed the $$$

George has no honour and has been caught out with the lies. He is seasoned in international knife purchase yet claimed to have no idea where the knife was "lost/stolen" despite having an informative tracking number showing the knife to be in the possession of Aus customs.

The seller gave the terms prior to the commitment to purchase, the buyer HAS agreed to the terms by continuing with the purchase.

 

[pry]

Could this entire situation have been avoided by simply tightening up the pivot?

My last word/s on this.

The OP is righteous and is owed the $$$

George has no honour and has been caught out with the lies. He is seasoned in international knife purchase yet claimed to have no idea where the knife was "lost/stolen" despite having an informative tracking number showing the knife to be in the possession of Aus customs.

The seller gave the terms prior to the commitment to purchase, the buyer HAS agreed to the terms by continuing with the purchase.

This is the main point and has already been stated numerous times, I don't see how some still don't get it. Regardless of what wording was used, what paypal decided, or what agreements were made. The only honorable thing to do is for george to pay for the knife that he caused to be lost by having it shipped to country with strict knife laws. Many decent members here from australia have said they always accept responsibility when there is a problem with customs, its a given that shouldn't even need to be agreed upon. Thats the only reasonable way that a honorable person would do business. George is a dirtbag, and the posts he made here only tried to skirt around the issue and deny any fault when its obvious to 90% of the people who posted in this thread that he is responsible.

 

[Irezumi]

A couple of Aussies are getting folders in at the moment...if you get them in...there is a big markup on them since December last year. A $400 sebenza can go for $600, a ZT200 for $280, etc. There is a risk on every single folder that is not a thumb nick being confiscated. Fixed (non dagger) knives are fine though. I usually say that customs is my issue, and if it can be proven that it made it to customs, then the seller is not responsible any further.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

George has no honour and has been caught out with the lies.

I remind you that the only person who has been caught in a bold-faced lie is the OP. He lied about George making statements he never made. If you are questioning honor and honesty, I think the facts speak louder than all of our assumptions.

 

[김원진]

mag- not sure if you can read or not but we have an LEO as well as aussies pointing out the obvious and going further. George is clearly in the wrong. You seem to be fixated on a possible misquote, but the disclaimer was clearly there and agreed upon.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Believe whatever you want to believe. Every argument has been made and every case argued ad nauseam at this point. I bow out.

 

[meako]

The main cause of this problem is the Australian Customs Service.
I Believe they have in place a set of rules so convoluted and confusing -this knife is legal to own but not to import??! how does that work?-That if you asked three ACS officers on three separate occasions about this particular knife you would get nine different answers.
Someone has the OPs knife .Who?
ACS thats who.
good luck

 

[김원진]

Knife is in customs(fact), and george didn't try and hasn't stepped up to say he would or did ask customs about it. You must be right though, we're just making Dylan to be the victim.

From what I can tell, it's more like a lot of people who are making the OP into a victim when it was his decision to escalate the PayPal issue to a claim and his decision to flat out lie about what other members have said. I don't know about George Huang; people are assuming a lot. I do know the OP lied.

 

[brandon]

Well, after reading this, I can add three more people to the "do not deal with" list. George, for obvious reasons, and our two stateside fellows who can't seem to comprehend written English. I actually felt bad for those two after reading the W+C thread they are currently starring in, but that was based on me not doing my homework, and subsequently knowing nothing of their character.

It's an informative thread we have here, to say the very least. Post your PP addy Dylan, I've got $25 to help defray some of your loss. Reading this was well worth the $25, and if there's one thing I will take away from this thread, it's pretty clear that shipping Internationally with Paypal is a bad, scratch that, TERRIBLE idea.

 

[Magnaminous_G]

Think whatever you will about me, friend. My mudslinging days are over (for the most part). But I think you've got a great idea there. The OP has a lot of supporters here, and if they all pitched in $25, he'll have his $400 back in no time... Frankly, that's the only way he's going to get it back because nobody outside of this thread, including USPS, PayPal, Australian Customs, or any outside observers who aren't part of this conversation are going to support him or believe him.

 

[DixiNormous]

Mate, if you can remain in contact with George, he will probably have a seizure notice. That notice has the option to send the knife back to the vendor (you) rather than get it destroyed. He has a certain amount of time to respond to the seizure notice before destruction so get onto it. George should have told you that. PLEASE GET ONTO THIS POST HASTE AND I HOPE YOU GET YOUR KNIFE BACK AT LEAST. Good luck.

 

[DixiNormous]

I've been following this thread, and I think it's time I put in my $0.02.

I've known George for a couple of years now, and have purchase several high end folders from him. I can't fault him. In all our dealings and other deals I've seen/heard of on ABF, he has been an upstanding member.

I am also a little concerned about some of the "inaccuracies" posted by OP. A very important part of all this, is the fact that whilest George submitted a complaint to Paypal, he was NOT the one that escalated it to a claim - Paypal will not act on anything untill a complaint becomes a claim.

Despite all that, it is impotant to note that all sales on forums are based on trust and honour NOT small print. And without trust and honour - we have nothing! I know what I would've done if I was in George's position, but then again, in that case this thread would never exist...

I am also a moderator on ABF (KK, nice to meet you ), and we have been following this thread with interest. While we will be happy to assist in whatever we can, this will not be permitted to spill onto our open forum. Whatever happened, happened on this forum, and has nothing to do with ABF. We run a pretty tight ship, and exercise zero tollerance for BS, slander and accusations.

@ Pry - as TiNi has said, Australian Customs are well and truely aware of splitting the packages. Infact, recent ammendment to the law explicitly prohibits importation of "folding knife parts". Infact, your buyer would be better off trying his luck (if he wants to) bring it in one piece, atleast that way he can claim ignorance. By sending it in parts, he shows intent/conspiracy to import and this may well land him straight in court rather than the usual confiscation and warning (this has happened in the past).

Hey KK, I've dealt with George once and you've just confirmed my suspicions as to his full identity. He was involved in a deal with a knife on ABF (with a well liked identity on that forum) that finished up being faulty and refused to have anything to do with it. That deal never made it onto the open forum but, I will never deal with him again and I know at least 2 other people on ABF that feel the same way. The way he acted was appalling in our opinion. I can't believe he hasn't even offered to help return the knife via the Notice Of Seizure form.
I know exactly what you would have done KK because you've shown to be a man of high honour.....Catch you on ABF ;-)

 

[DixiNormous]

The entire public outrage against George Huang was based on the above claims by the OP. If the OP really did send those e-mails of "George telling him he takes full responsiblity for the package after it has been mailed," to PayPal, then why won't he post them here as evidence?

I suspect the e-mail in question doesn't exist. So it is not George Huang who has a character issue. It might be the OP... unless he can show those alleged e-mails.

Mag, my outrage comes from the fact that George has been doing this for a long time and knows the risks and is playing dumb. I'm relatively new to the game and have had knives seized and have been proactive about finding out exactly what is going on a few days after that really annoying stall at customs - it's pretty obvious what has happened to a knife in that situation. To say that the knife is lost or stolen when it hasn't moved through customs is at best faciles. George knows exactly where the knife is and if it is true that he has been totally passive in this situation then he needs to pick up the phone and call customs to find out where it is and if it's seized, get that Notice of Seizure posted out to him and request it be returned to Dylan.