down2man (George Huang)

[김원진]

He already said he wasn't going that route, you even quoted that he said he would feel uncomfortable doing that

dylan, try and contact the correct customs office yourself or give the tracking # to someone at ABF and see if they'll help you out. My opinion, Don't listen to the people that are saying just suck it up. Do what you can.

I strongly advise against pursuing criminal charges against George Huang, or trying to get a straight answer or action from Australian Customs, for that matter. I honestly think it's a waste of time. But that's just my 2 cents. If you really want to press charges against George Huang, you'll have to consult with a lawyer familiar with Australian law. And that will cost a pretty penny more than $400.

It looks lime you believe you can still either A) get your money, or B) get George Huang punished in some major way.

A) Very doubtful.
B) He didn't steal anything from you. He got a refund for a knife he never received. The issue with Customs is a quagmire no one has worked out yet. Maybe BF should make some rules about that? I think the current rule is just "buyer beware, seller beware." I might be wrong about that though. Does anyone know?

 

[Magnaminous_G]

dylan, try and contact the correct customs office yourself or give the tracking # to someone at ABF and see if they'll help you out. My opinion, Don't listen to the people that are saying just suck it up. Do what you can.

No one is advising him to suck it up out of ill-will. I'm advising him to not bother with Customs because I think it will be a fruitless and frustrating experience. But if he's determined, then I hope it works out for him.

 

[not2sharp]

No one is advising him to suck it up out of ill-will. I'm advising him to not bother with Customs because I think it will be a fruitless and frustrating experience. But if he's determined, then I hope it works out for him.

Well, what other choice is there. Do you have any constructive suggestions? If it were me I would be having a long discussion with Australian customs about George and this knife.

n2s

 

[Minibear464]

You know, I don't really understand Australian customs, but there must be some way to get the knife right? It hasn't been sucked into a black hole, that knife is somewhere in Australia RIGHT NOW. I think it'd be best if both parties just tried to get the knife, or somehow convince customs to ship it back to the United States, and resolve this whole thing. It doesn't really matter who was right or wrong, if they can both try to find the knife, and get it back, then there'll at least be a better chance of a resolution than saying the buyer was wrong for buying it knowing customs, or the seller shouldn't have sold.etc. It's done, the knife is gone, so might as well try to get it back.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

I'm advising him to not bother with Customs because I think it will be a fruitless and frustrating experience.

...based upon what ? Have you ever dealt with Australian Customs ?? I have and though (like most Govt Agencies) it is never 100% straight forward it is not insurmountable.

As for the Australian Knife Importation Laws (ownership here is a completely different issue) it is really not too hard to understand. Traditional/slip joint folders are no problem, “one handed opening /flick knives” are a different issue and almost impossible to navigate. The definition is vague and the testing is essentially what you see in the video I posted at the start of this thread. Fixed blades really pose us very few issues in that the only restrictions are on “daggers” and “knuckle duster” type blades/handles. Any other fixed blade is just fine and none of the 50 + fixed blades I have imported from the US in the past 12 months have even been opened by Customs or inspected beyond the X-Ray each and every mail article that comes into the country gets.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

You know, I don't really understand Australian customs, but there must be some way to get the knife right?

...maybe yes maybe no. In the eyes of Customs that knife belongs to George as it is HE who has imported it into the country. The importation/ownership is relevant particularly if a prosecution is considered/intended. As I have said time and again here if it is a first seizure (based upon the "new" testing/enforcement regime that started last year) Customs generally give the importer the option to have the knife returned to sender. The issue here for Dylan is that he is not the “Customer” to Australian Customs, George is.

I do think Dylan has some options to appeal Paypal’s decision on his $$s as well as the Insurance issue (if Customs say they don’t have it).

 

[pry]

I just had a guy from australia buy a tilt off me. I told him I think theres a good chance it will be confiscated and if he wants to take the risk I will send it out. He said he still wants it and that it should be ok because its under 4" and not spring loaded. I received payment as a paypal gift. Now after reading more about australian knife laws I'm almost certain the tilt won't get through and I emailed him again telling him I think he should just accept a refund.

Do you aussie guys think theres any chance a kershaw tilt would pass the customs test?

EDIT: The buyer still wants to go through with this despite my warnings, and he suggested sending the knife in 2 packages a week apart, one with the blade, the other with the handle.

 

[DylanMW]

Just a quick little update...

I was advised by another member to pay it off as quickly as possible as it would affect my credit score. I sold off my Hest 2.0, Paramilitary and took back some of my old books and am currently flush with PayPal.

It is pretty obvious that George is not going to pay me back my money and doesn't really seem to care. I hope eventually George gets what is coming, karma is a b****.

From here I will just move forward, save my money and eventually buy myself another Umnumzaan or Sebenza.


I will also be looking into contacting customs about my knife. If I am not able to get it back I would rather they keep it so George won't be able to get his hands on it, as I don't see him paying me ever.



I would just like to thank everyone again for all their help!



EDIT:
Also, I have submitted a feedback score on George here, that way everyone has a heads up of what kind of person he is.
I have also given links to this thread to the admins of Australian Blade Forums just as a heads up.
Hopefully no one will want to do business with him here or on Australian Blade Forums ever agai

 

[TiNi]

@ Pry,

i would get his committment in writing if he still wants to go ahead and from what i have read the 'Paypal gift' option will stop him from trying to file a claim against you (BUT, what if the payment is made via a Credit Card ?, i dont know if the CC company can do anything ?)

From the bits and pieces i have read, customs are wise to the x2 packages sent weeks apart, they are not stupid (xray machine is used), also sometimes the parcels may be held in the USA till a load is ready to be sent and what 'if' both the parcels ended up posted either together or days apart.

Risky for sure and if he has the disposable income to lose it, so be it.

I just had a guy from australia buy a tilt off me. I told him I think theres a good chance it will be confiscated and if he wants to take the risk I will send it out. He said he still wants it and that it should be ok because its under 4" and not spring loaded. I received payment as a paypal gift. Now after reading more about australian knife laws I'm almost certain the tilt won't get through and I emailed him again telling him I think he should just accept a refund.

Do you aussie guys think theres any chance a kershaw tilt would pass the customs test?

EDIT: The buyer still wants to go through with this despite my warnings, and he suggested sending the knife in 2 packages a week apart, one with the blade, the other with the handle.

 

[Mike_M]

I've been following this thread, and I think it's time I put in my $0.02.

I've known George for a couple of years now, and have purchase several high end folders from him. I can't fault him. In all our dealings and other deals I've seen/heard of on ABF, he has been an upstanding member.

I am also a little concerned about some of the "inaccuracies" posted by OP. A very important part of all this, is the fact that whilest George submitted a complaint to Paypal, he was NOT the one that escalated it to a claim - Paypal will not act on anything untill a complaint becomes a claim.

Despite all that, it is impotant to note that all sales on forums are based on trust and honour NOT small print. And without trust and honour - we have nothing! I know what I would've done if I was in George's position, but then again, in that case this thread would never exist...

I am also a moderator on ABF (KK, nice to meet you ), and we have been following this thread with interest. While we will be happy to assist in whatever we can, this will not be permitted to spill onto our open forum. Whatever happened, happened on this forum, and has nothing to do with ABF. We run a pretty tight ship, and exercise zero tollerance for BS, slander and accusations.

@ Pry - as TiNi has said, Australian Customs are well and truely aware of splitting the packages. Infact, recent ammendment to the law explicitly prohibits importation of "folding knife parts". Infact, your buyer would be better off trying his luck (if he wants to) bring it in one piece, atleast that way he can claim ignorance. By sending it in parts, he shows intent/conspiracy to import and this may well land him straight in court rather than the usual confiscation and warning (this has happened in the past).

 

[pry]

Dylan, that's sad to hear you had to sell your other stuff to pay off the debt caused by George. I don't know how Australian customs works but I think I saw someone say that it would have to be George that contacted them and requested the knife be returned to you. It could even still get delivered to him, maybe they are just really backed up where they test the knives. I doubt George will pay you for it though. What I still can't believe is how there are no consequences on the forums for screwing other members. If I was you I would stick my nose in every thread he tries to buy/sell/trade in and warn people, although that will probably get you in trouble with the mods, lol.

TiNi, I'm not sure how much a commitment in writing is worth anymore, seems like its worth nothing. The paypal gift is what I am hoping will protect me, but I'm not sure what would happen if he tries to do a charge back on his CC. It might put his account in negative, or it could do it to mine. I agree though about customs being wise to this, I'm sure its been tried before. But also I think its possible for people to be ordering replacement parts or warranty parts so they might let it through. I really tried to convince him to back out of the deal but I guess he really wants the tilt and is willing to take the risk. Do they inspect every piece of mail that comes in, like envelopes too? I'm just going to send the handle completely broken down and once he gets the handle I will send the blade in a padded envelope.

 

[frontline29]

We work partly on an honor system here. If there was any honor involved in this deal, the money would be returned back to the seller and the buyer should be in contact with his country's customs department trying to get the package returned to sender.

You knew the risk before you entered into this deal. And still you chose to import an illeagal knife.
IMO its the buyers fault.

I speak from experience.
I tried to import a balisong which are illeagal in Canada. I knew the risk of confiscation before I entered into the deal. And when customs confiscated it, I didnt blame the seller and try to get my money back. I took it on the chin like a man and did what i felt was the honorable thing and paid the seller.

Mind ya, I wasn't too happy about it. But again I knew the risk upon entering the deal, and if I would have blamed the seller for my risk I would have felt like a weasel.

 

[pry]

We work partly on an honor system here. If there was any honor involved in this deal, the money would be returned back to the seller and the buyer should be in contact with his country's customs department trying to get the package returned to sender.

You knew the risk before you entered into this deal. And still you chose to import an illeagal knife.
IMO its the buyers fault.

I speak from experience.
I tried to import a balisong which are illeagal in Canada. I knew the risk of confiscation before I entered into the deal. And when customs confiscated it, I didnt blame the seller and try to get my money back. I took it on the chin like a man and did what i felt was the honorable thing and paid the seller.

Mind ya, I wasn't too happy about it. But again I knew the risk upon entering the deal, and if I would have blamed the seller for my risk I would have felt like a weasel.

yeah that sums it up pretty good, and its the point we've been trying to make this whole time. George took the risk and should own it, not blame it on the seller and cheat him out of the money. Its truly disgraceful and I don't understand how George can justify what he did.

 

[Mike_M]

...I agree though about customs being wise to this, I'm sure its been tried before. But also I think its possible for people to be ordering replacement parts or warranty parts so they might let it through. I really tried to convince him to back out of the deal but I guess he really wants the tilt and is willing to take the risk. Do they inspect every piece of mail that comes in, like envelopes too? I'm just going to send the handle completely broken down and once he gets the handle I will send the blade in a padded envelope.

Pry, I think you may have missed the bottom part of my post #150 as we posted at exact same time. I may have answered this question.

 

[Andy the Aussie]

TiNi, I'm not sure how much a commitment in writing is worth anymore, seems like its worth nothing. The paypal gift is what I am hoping will protect me, but I'm not sure what would happen if he tries to do a charge back on his CC. It might put his account in negative, or it could do it to mine. I agree though about customs being wise to this, I'm sure its been tried before. But also I think its possible for people to be ordering replacement parts or warranty parts so they might let it through. I really tried to convince him to back out of the deal but I guess he really wants the tilt and is willing to take the risk. Do they inspect every piece of mail that comes in, like envelopes too? I'm just going to send the handle completely broken down and once he gets the handle I will send the blade in a padded envelope.

..... every piece of mail is screened by way of X-Ray and if applicable physical examination, everything!! As Mike above says PARTS are specifically prohibited (several people have been slapped for attempting to import kit knives that when assembled would in fact be a perfectly legal folder). What the MO is when someone tries to send things in as "parts" is to allow the delivery of each component and when the last is in follow it through the door with a search warrant and charges. As is noted by sending it this way it is an admission that the recipient is fully aware of the status of the item and is knowingly breaking the law. If they want to run the gauntlet then sending it whole is somewhat safer but I would bet a nut that it will be taken.

Andy

 

[pry]

Ok, I convinced him to forget it and issued a refund. If knives like the umnumzaan can't get through I highly doubt the tilt would have made it. It opens very easily with the flick of a wrist.

 

[ooitzoo]

EDIT:
Also, I have submitted a feedback score on George here, that way everyone has a heads up of what kind of person he is.
I have also given links to this thread to the admins of Australian Blade Forums just as a heads up.
Hopefully no one will want to do business with him here or on Australian Blade Forums ever agai

I don't know that this is wise given that George was your buyer. Maybe I am wrong but leaving negative feedback for a buyer (absent some for of definitive proof of fraud) is a no no on BF.

That said, I do think George owes to you and himself to check with AUS customs.

Also, any comment on what George said regarding your turning a dispute into a claim? That may have been an unwise move given how PP looks at these things.

 

[pry]

So leaving negative feedback for a buyer who screwed you is a no no? But screwing a seller is ok..

 

[DylanMW]

Also, any comment on what George said regarding your turning a dispute into a claim? That may have been an unwise move given how PP looks at these things.

Yes, I did turn the dispute into a claim. George had been emailing me asking where his knife was, every time I had the same answer. So when he filed the dispute what is it he asks? The same question. Trying to talk sense into him was about out of the picture by that point so I turned it into a claim hoping it would end quicker and since I had a huge amount of evidence on my side I figured there was no way they could favor in Georges way.

It's funny because a lady to spoke with on the phone at paypal actually told me George dooped me but because of the way the rules are worded there is nothing they can do.



I must say, it really is getting rather tempting to just report him to customs and let them take it from there.

 

[ooitzoo]

So leaving negative feedback for a buyer who screwed you is a no no? But screwing a seller is ok..

Its unclear that George screwed anyone. Yes, the end result for Dylan is that he's out the money and the knife. However, and this is my understanding, leaving negative feedback for a buyer is a no-no. I'm sure a mod will opine soon enough.

The reality of international shipping is that you have to protect yourself. The buyer isn't out to get you but he can't answer for the actions of his customs office.

The way I've international sales is as follows:

1: Spell out "When the package leaves the US I am no longer responsible." There is no ambiguity in this statement.
2: Get paid thru PP gift / personal. There are no refund unless I chose to give one. Notice, if you're a long time member with a reputation to protect its unlikely that you'll trade that for $400.
3: Let the buyer select and pay for his preferred method of shipping. Since the buyer is taking the risk then the buyer can decide how to ship.
4: NEVER EVER falsify customs docs. If the buyer wants insurance its a big problem as you'll only recover the declared amount. That's not to mention that its against the law.

I hope this helps. As an addendum to the above (and this goes for any and all transactions): never assume anything. If its not spelled out then its not valid.

Yes, I did turn the dispute into a claim. George had been emailing me asking where his knife was, every time I had the same answer. So when he filed the dispute what is it he asks? The same question. Trying to talk sense into him was about out of the picture by that point so I turned it into a claim hoping it would end quicker and since I had a huge amount of evidence on my side I figured there was no way they could favor in Georges way.

It's funny because a lady to spoke with on the phone at paypal actually told me George dooped me but because of the way the rules are worded there is nothing they can do.



I must say, it really is getting rather tempting to just report him to customs and let them take it from there.

I think that this was a mistake. Once the dispute becomes a claim you no longer have the opportunity to add your comments. Also, it doesn't look good when you don't try and work anything out and just click "claim" (or whatever the button is.) To PP it looks like you're not interested in the resolving anything and just want them to fix it.

Whether the lady on the phone told you that he duped you or not isn't relavent. They ruled against you. They denied your appeal. I do believe, in this case, PP acted incorrectly as the item was still en route (e.g. sitting in customs.)

As for trying to get him in trouble with customs. I guess you can try that but I doubt you'd be successful at it. I mean, all he needs to say is "I don't know what that is..." Meanwhile its cost you time and money. I recommend trying to work thru this.