Ed Fowler You Need to open your eyes

[Lorien]

Lorien,

Mr. Voyles is a retired 84-year-old pipefitter who lives in North Carolina. He served as an Aviation Ordanceman as at Petty Officer on the USS Intrepid (CV-11) in World War II, and financed the first knives I ever owned--as well as in later years assisting me at tables at knife shows and even taking up admissions at the early Blade Shows.

I'm not Mr. Voyles. I'm Bruce.

Thank you, Bruce, I appreciate that.
:thumbup:

 

[Lorien]

The "safe queen" phenomenon is not the fault of the makers IMO.

When the custom knife game got rolling, I think that most makers wanted to make the high quality cutting instruments that they felt were unavailable in the normal chain of commerce.

The custom knife is arguably a victim of its own popularity. How many times have we seen threads where someone has bought a "user" or "field grade" knife from a maker and says I would love to use it, but I can't justify it because it will diminish the value of the knife?

The funny part is that a lot of the people who we refer to as synchophants actually USE the knives that they aquire from the makers/companies that they allegedly worship. Think about Busse. I'm sure that there are still a number of people out there who actually use their Randalls........GADZOOKS!!!!

This "safe queen" thing creates a bit of a quandry, particularly for the newer maker. The average collector is not going to use a knife that cost over X amount, because the value will be diminished. Yet if the same collector wants to actually buy a using knife, then he will want this knife to display 90-95% of the quality of uber-expensive unused user that costs X, but will only be willing to pay 1/2 or, in many cases, 1/3 or 1/4 of X.

That just seems like a way to discourage newer guys from making users because while ALL of the knives from the big guys have gone up in price at a rate that, in most cases, keeps up with inflation at a minimum, the new guy is having to charge about the same as what someone would have gotten 10-15 years ago for a knife of similar quality.

Collectors have raised the bar as far as the quality of fit and finish, etc that they will accept regardless of the experience level of the maker, but, in most cases, they haven't had to pay proportionally for the across the board improvements that they have demanded.

I hope you don't mind, Joe, but I edited your post a bit just to separate the ideas out because I think you made some important points. At the very least, it was well said:thumbup:

 

[Will Leavitt]

I'm going to wade in a little bit.. not much more than sticking a toe or two in.

I interpreted Ed's comment on an "honest knife" in two ways.

First to be a knife having a face or something of a sentimental value (don't want to say value but only term coming to mind.) The examples of using a broken sheep shear or hay tine for blade steel (don't let my fellow steel snobs read this ) is an example of sentimental value. I am on somewhat of a quest to find a face for my knives, I want to make knives that immediately say "Will Leavitt" when you see them.

Secondly, I'm making "honest" knives now. I made umpteen drop point hunters and other knives and absolutely despised every single one I made. I made them because they sold, I didn't cut corners, I didn't scrimp one bit on the work or care I put into them but every time I made one I felt that a bit of the inner artist died. My teacher told me to start making knives that made WILL happy and to hell with what will sell. I can honestly say that my soul sings when I make a knife now.

Lastly, the whole working man's knife thingy. I started making knives because I couldn't afford them. I try to keep my prices low enough that people will use the knives I make. I plan on keeping my simple knives affordable.

I'm not an art critic, collector or philosopher, I'm a knife maker that makes what I consider an honest knife.

 

[jdm61]

I hope you don't mind, Joe, but I edited your post a bit just to separate the ideas out because I think you made some important points. At the very least, it was well said:thumbup:

Actually, I would prefer that you mash it all back together inot its original stream of conciousness format and then take out all capitalization a la William Carlos Williams.

 

[peterinct]

There is a vital difference between online postings and knife magazines though. In magazines the facts are checked, and what is said there is filtered and refined by editors whose business is to make it readable, correct, and hopefully informative and entertaining. Like all humans sometimes that is not 100%. Overall I think I can say that what is written in knife magazines is percentage wise more accurate than what is online--especially in open forums.

On the other hand in the online world if you have a computer, and opinion, and time to be on your computer, you can attain online credibility. Multi-posting does not insure the poster has a clue about what they are talking about--it insures only that the poster has an opinion. And that opinion is presented with the same force, credibility, and type face as a poster with many years of experience and savvy.

My primary concern in this vein is not what is being posted--that is the nature of the online forums. My concern is for a newcomer who can't tell the difference, and takes incorrect information and treats it as gospel.

Bruce - you are NO DOUBT one of the pundits of the knife world, but in regards to your statement about "the facts" in magazines....WELL as I was reading the April Issue of Blade, I noticed a statement in the "Whats Hot" column on page 26 that begins "The Folders of Canada's Howard Hitchmough"....unless he moved VERY recently, he resides in Peterborough, New Hampshire ??

Also, nothing at all was mentioned regarding the effect of advertising $$$$ in printed publications such as Blade?

I agree with your opinion that information should be obtained from all sources available however

Peter

 

[TennKnifeman]

The effect of advertising is that it allows a knife magazine to stay in business. That is the true first obligation of any publication.

The influence of advertising on editorial is an oft-repeated fallacy. A quick look at all the magazines will reveal plenty of info on knifemakers and companies who never advertise.

But editors are human too. When faced with two identical articles, equally well written, equal in quality of photography, equal in interest to readers, and only one can go in the magazine, and one is about an advertiser and one is about a non-advertiser, the advertiser featured article will run. My like a veterans preference on a civil service exam, advertising is worth a few bonus points. But just a few.

If it is a crappy article of uninteresting stuff about an advertiser and a snappy hot article about a non-advertiser, the non-advertiser article will run.
Advertising on only 1/3 of a 3 leg stool in the economics of a magazine--newsstand sales and subscriptions are a part of it as well.

No magazine can sacrifice editorial quality by whoring advertising without suffering loss in credibility (and sales on subs and newsstand).

By the same token you bring a press release to a magazine accompanied by a contract for six full-color pages, and the odds are that press release will run.

As for mistakes, as I said in my earlier post, editors and publishers are human, and do make mistakes. We can isolate individual instances all day--and at the end of the day I believe I can come up with roughly 10 to 1 or more instances of incorrect facts represented as gospel on online forums versus the editorial pages of any knife magazine.

I never said knife magazine editors are perfect. God knows I'm as good as an example of that as you are apt to find.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

The influence of advertising on editorial is an oft-repeated fallacy.

After reading a recent article toting Mantis knives as an excellent product , and other articles praising mediocre products , forgive me if I refuse to read a lot of the zines' in print. The articles written , while merely the opinion of the writer , reflect on the whole publication. I have canceled my subscriptions to all magazines in past years , with the exception of one : " Small Arms Review".

If the magazines are supposed to be read in order to learn and further our knowledge , perhaps those articles should at least be un-biased.

The articles on the individual custom makers are worth the read most of the time.

It's not just limited to knife magazines , its the same with those about guns and other interests as well.

 

[Lorien]

mountain bike magazines run the gamut from grassroots 'truth' zines to glossy advertising based publications. Some of them are pretty bad, and when you really know a subject and see blatant bullshit, you can't help but wonder if 'other people' buy into it.

Why we care whether or not what 'other people' buy into is an interesting social question. I for one, have no problem sifting through the crap to find my education- got used to that in school!. If 'other people' buy into the hyperbole and hype, that's their problem, I strive to keep it from affecting me

 

[Halfneck]

I *think* I see both sides of this discussion.

Mr. Fowler is hoping the newer generation of knifemakers stay true to their original ideas instead of making knives that follow the popular trend.

Mr. Reiter is pointing out that those makers are out there, just their ideas are different than Mr. Fowler's ideas.

As a knife aficionado, I am not worried. Every year at BLADE I see plenty of new designs & innovations from both new & old makers. Additionally you can find new twists on the classics. The current crop of slipjoint makers right now is an excellent example. Not only do you have the older generation getting even better, but you have them passing on these skills to the newer generation.

If Mr. Fowler's article was intended to cause newer makers to think, it's definitely provoking that.

 

[TennKnifeman]

After reading a recent article toting Mantis knives as an excellent product , and other articles praising mediocre products , forgive me if I refuse to read a lot of the zines' in print. The articles written , while merely the opinion of the writer , reflect on the whole publication. I have canceled my subscriptions to all magazines in past years , with the exception of one : " Small Arms Review".

Tongue in cheek, using that criteria, I have to ask why you are reading this forum--because I see praise of mediocre products...and knifemakers...here as well. Doesn't something posted here reflect on the entire website? You can't have it both ways.

A knife magazine covers knives. That includes some that are unpopular with some people. Mantis knives, since you mentioned them, must be popular with someone--else they couldn't remain in business.

For example with KI--there are few places where one can read of anyone going to the time and trouble to test the sharpness of different steels of different knives the way Mike Black does. And the results are the results. He doesn't back off from who does badly in those tests.

Same with some of the things we published about the knives being used in Iraq--when it came time for that article Clint Thompson drove over to the Special Ops boys near where he was working in Iraq as a Police Training contractor. (He later arranged for free knives for a large group of them donated by U. S. manufacturers--and we had photo). When we ran an article praising the SOG tomahawk, and discovered (again from the troops in Iraq) that one had broken in use--we covered that story--and via Clint Thompson's suggestions--the improved thermoplastic handle was improved for the entire production. Some of the earlier tomahawks in use by the troops were replaced by SOG.

But if you do not read knife magazines you do not know about those things. I think those things alone are worth the price of a magazine subscription.

In articles by Abe Elias you do not read about knives laying on a table, but knives in use, cutting things, being beaten through wood, etc. Articles on some tacticals are by Pat Casico, who worked several years for Col. Applegate. B. R. Hughes is a regular contributor--and is a founder of the American Bladesmiths Society. Jack Lewis is the former owner of Gun World and responsible for the starts of many a well known knifemaker. I think the credibility of those writers is not in question--and worth the price of a subscription.

Other knife publications have writers with a similar background. Steve Dick has been writing about knives since the early 80's, and Steve Shackleford has been editing knife magazines since 1986. (I hired Steve at Blade, and published some of Dick's first articles about that same time). My first knife editing gig began in 1976. I think that kind of experience will reflect through in a knife magazine's pages--and is worth the price of the magazine.

Maybe I'm too old school--but I believe that if one is serious about a subject they realize there is always something new to learn about it--and they will exclude nothing that might provide more knowledge.

I do understand there are some that are not as serious about knives as I am. And while I wish everyone liked to read knife magazines and stay informed I also understand this is an unrealistic expectation.

If someone chooses to not stay fully informed that is their own decision.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Like or dislike, agree or disagree with what you read in knife publications but if you are not informed you are at a disadvantage to someone who is.

A while back I started a thread here "Knife Publications–Where would we be without them?" because I was amazed by the "serious" collectors I know who don't subscribe to either BLADE or KI.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

TennKnifeman...

well lets see , long before the article came out plenty of people had bought and expressed disappointment with mantis knives , yet in print in a zine' , praise. huh ? Tell me that is not a jaded article.

Can you gather good info from both places ? Yes.
Can you gather bad info from both ? Yes.

zines are usually about 4 months behind the curve , by then most already know about the happenings , the whats new , etc.

I much prefer forums as it is the opinions of many people , not just one , being presented on a subject , that interests me.

If someone chooses to not stay fully informed that is their own decision.

Again , it is merely your opinion that one has to read a magazine to be fully informed. Talking to others , customer , makers , collectors , etc on the phone and in person , has more weight than an article in either locale...online or in print.

Doesn't something posted here reflect on the entire website? You can't have it both ways.

Not really , these guys on the forum are not PAID to provide the info , they do it on their own. That is the difference.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

What would a 'Dishonest Non-working Man's Knife' look like?

Or how about a "Dishonest Man's Non-working Knife?"

Or a "Non-working Man's Dishonest Knife"?

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

What would a 'Dishonest Non-working Man's Knife' look like?

It would look like , well , nothing , like one of those guys who took orders for knives , took payment and didn't deliver . of which there are a few out there in that case it might be called a Non-working dishonest maker knife

 

[TennKnifeman]

TennKnifeman...
Again , it is merely your opinion that one has to read a magazine to be fully informed. Talking to others , customer , makers , collectors , etc on the phone and in person , has more weight than an article in either locale...online or in print.

Not really , these guys on the forum are not PAID to provide the info , they do it on their own. That is the difference.

I think I addressed the lack of information you do not have by not reading magazines with the list of writers earlier.

If you are spending the 40-60 hours a week (plus going to knife shows) that a paid editor spends on knives and you spend that same amount of time talking to customers, makers, collectors, going to shows, etc. -- and if you have accumulated many years of previous study on the subject, then perhaps most of what the editors and writers might pass along to you via the pages of a knife magazine is already known to you. Under that circumstance you may be right, you don't need to read knife magazines to stay fully informed.

I spend that number of hours each week (and more), and every day I discover something new about knives. Sometimes it is on the forums, and a lot of times it is in the articles I edit for inclusion in the next issue of Knives Illustrated. And as much as I hate to admit it--sometimes it is within the pages of other knife magazines. Knives are my passion and my business and I make it a point to read everything I can lay my hands on.

To say that one cannot read knife magazines and remain fully informed about knives is naive.

One can choose not to read knife magazines for one reason or another--but to say one can be fully informed and not read knife magazines means you have to accept the premise that there is nothing that is ever going to be published about knives in Knives Illustrated, Blade, Tactical Knives, Knife World, or even American Handgunner that you do not already know or can be found online.

Every month when the knife magazines come in and I read them I can tell you with absolute certainty that I cannot make that statement.

The last line in the quote above implies that perhaps someone doing this as a hobby for free has more incentive to do a better job on facts, research, accuracy, etc. than someone who is paid?

Therefore one should pay MORE attention to the postings of non-professionals on a free forum with no stated criteria on their background, experience, or qualifications to be commenting on what they are posting about? (You are joking about this part, right?)

There are plenty of people posting on here with extensive knowledge to share and who do provide a lot of information. For free. I learn from them. This is a good thing, and there is much to be gained from that. I did not state the above to disparage online posters in any way.

But to disdain magazines and those who produce them as being tainted, and not worthy of being read because they are professionals and are getting paid to do it?

If that is the theory, one might be able to save a lot of money on medical expenses if we forgo going to our Physician the next time we get sick and instead find a medical forum. As for me, I'm going to the Doc, and figure it will be money well spent.

Money spent on knife magazines is well spent money as well. One good bit of information a year from one magazine can often provide enough knowledge to allow a reader to make a more informed decision on a knife purchase or sale, and that one little tidbit could pay for years of magazine subscriptions.

The adage, "You get what you pay for" has never changed.

But the reality of all of this exchange about magazines is much more basic. If you do not read knife magazines you have no idea of what is in there and what isn't in there.

You have no idea if the writing has improved, if there is anything attended to in depth within those pages that you might not know about. You don't know because you admit you don't read them.

I would suggest that by your own admission as you have no recent knowledge of knife magazines that you are therefore not qualified to comment on them.

But comment on them you did.

Which is the ultimate difference between professionally edited knife magazines and online postings.

 

[SAR]

Is the topic that is currently being discuss have anything to do with the original post?

Spencer

 

[TennKnifeman]

I think the thread drifted shortly after someone posted, in reference to the original column by Ed, "I've not read the article but..."

And then there was something about honesty...

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Spencer, thread drift happens in pretty any thread of this type. The focus of the threads tends to wander all over the place, and every once in awhile things will get back on track, only to meander again in short order.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

agree to disagree Tenn , you , nor anyone else , will every convince me , you HAVE to read knife magazines to be full informed. Fully informed on what by the way ?

Just for the record , I will breeze thru magazines while at a friends place if he happens to have one laying there in the shop , but I have not found enough articles that have made me say " I need to get every subscription ! ".

I used to buy every mag out there , and read them cover to cover , I know longer feel it is worth buying every issue.

On this matter , we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[peterinct]

For me, I think the most challenging part in learning, is deciphering the valid, worthwhile information from the rest. Whether it is from magazines, the internet, shows etc., but I think the more exposure you have the better informed you can be.

As to the definition of an "honest" knife, my guess is that Ed Fowler was simply trying to describe HIS philosophy in knifemaking.

There are many types of "dishonest" knives. Fakes, cleaned knives and knives sold under false pretenses, such as many on ebay with vague pictures and embellished descriptions.

Peter