Ed Fowler You Need to open your eyes

[Kevin Jones]

A knife can be "used" to satisfy it's owner in ways other than cutting tasks.

 

[Lorien]

how pray tell, is a knife capable of being 'used', if not for cutting stuff?

To me, used means- well, used! A knife is a tool for cutting, if it never cuts, then it's never used. Well, unless it's thrown, or used to hit something, or to clean finger nails, pry out a staple, or to prop up a chair with a missing leg...

It's ok for a knife to exist in order to be admired. To exist to fulfil a fetishistic or symbolic role. That's all ok! If a knife is to be acquired as a symbol of status, then the more power to ya! I'm glad you chose a knife for that purpose, as opposed to an atmosphere-killing SUV.

Saying that a knife needs to be used in order to justify its existence is as pointless as arguing that since Art has no 'use', then it has no meaning or point. Some people think Art is found in galleries, others think it's on the walls of their rec rooms. Artists see it all around, and potentially in all objects, man made or not. It's all 'right'; to those whose perceptions lead them to an understanding of what Art is- for themselves alone.

No need to justify the existence of a knife by saying that it needs to be used, and then to go on and say that, although the knife exists as an Artifact only, that its role as symbol or Art should be understood as 'use'. It's something different than use, let's try and describe what THAT is in one word

There are many things wherein conspicuous consumption is a real problem, but the world of custom knives is pretty small potatoes in the big picture, while on the ground we often have our blinders on. In any event, it's all good! Enjoy the knives.

To thine own knife be true!

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Yes...........next question I'll throw a little more gasoline on the fire. If you have to worry about significantly diminishing the value of a knife if you use it for tasks for which it was designed, then I say you do not have an "honest working man's knife"

Just because it isn't what has been described as an honest working knife doesn't mean that it isn't an honest knife. I have many working knives, but that is not the only reason I own knives. I also am enamored by the talent that goes into making those fancy knives that never get used. If you love an honest working knife, great. If you love fancy, embellished knives, great. If you love both, that is also great. As far as I am concerned, any reason a person collects knives is the right reason.

When I look at the knives being made right now, I have no fear that we are in danger of losing the performance aspect just because there are more fancy knives being made.

 

[Lorien]

As far as I am concerned, any reason a person collects knives is the right reason.

:thumbup:

 

[Kevin Jones]

how pray tell, is a knife capable of being 'used', if not for cutting stuff?To me, used means- well, used! A knife is a tool for cutting, if it never cuts, then it's never used. Well, unless it's thrown, or used to hit something, or to clean finger nails, pry out a staple, or to prop up a chair with a missing leg...

It's ok for a knife to exist in order to be admired. To exist to fulfil a fetishistic or symbolic role. That's all ok! If a knife is to be acquired as a symbol of status, then the more power to ya! I'm glad you chose a knife for that purpose, as opposed to an atmosphere-killing SUV.

Saying that a knife needs to be used in order to justify its existence is as pointless as arguing that since Art has no 'use', then it has no meaning or point. Some people think Art is found in galleries, others think it's on the walls of their rec rooms. Artists see it all around, and potentially in all objects, man made or not. It's all 'right'; to those whose perceptions lead them to an understanding of what Art is- for themselves alone.

No need to justify the existence of a knife by saying that it needs to be used, and then to go on and say that, although the knife exists as an Artifact only, that its role as symbol or Art should be understood as 'use'. It's something different than use, let's try and describe what THAT is in one word

There are many things wherein conspicuous consumption is a real problem, but the world of custom knives is pretty small potatoes in the big picture, while on the ground we often have our blinders on. In any event, it's all good! Enjoy the knives.

To thine own knife be true!

When you handle, admire, examine a knife are you not using it?
When you show a knife to someone are you not using it?

Bowie's, Fighters, how many actual cutting uses do they have in today's world?
Yes, you can create ways to use one.

 

[Lorien]

When you handle, admire, examine a knife are you not using it?
When you show a knife to someone are you not using it?

I just don't think that the word 'use' describes the things you mentioned, in the context of a knife being a knife. If those are the 'uses' for a knife, then I'd argue that the knife has now become something more, or other, than a knife.

That shouldn't diminish its overall value, but should enhance it. There is an additional language that many people may not readily grasp, in many Custom knives which could be why there is a need for the distinction between an 'honest working knife', and another, less tangible, esoteric kind of knife.

Are people suspicious of knives which exist mainly for their Artistic or collectible merits on the surface, while at their heart function as a knife should? If so, what are they afraid of?

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

When you handle, admire, examine a knife are you not using it?
When you show a knife to someone are you not using it?

Nope , you are not using it , you are admiring it or perhaps carrying it ,or perhaps showing it off , which is fine if that is your thing , I don't have a problem with that at all.

If you feel differently , then any knife purchased can NEVER be sold and stated as " never been used "

If you buy a computer and never turn it on , you havenot used it.

If you buy a gun , and never fire it , it has not been used yet, it might have been handled , but never used.

Or should we look at it like a car...

You buy a Ferrari and leave it sit in the driveway , never drive it , and only have people look at it , you are not using it , but when you sell it , it is sold as a used car....

Ya'll make me think too much....but that's a good thing.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I don't agree.
I VERY seldom drive my cars, but I "use" them to display at shows, have "used" them to promote car care products.

Lorien mentioned Art not being used. However decorators "use" art to improve decor or space, architects "use" art to fill space.

The fact that a knife is not use for cutting task and/or is embellished does not necessarily mean that it is not capable of preforming cutting task to the highest degree.

 

[cdent]

It may be critical that a knife can be 'used' for noncutting purposes. Otherwise, there would be no market for all the wow factor that we are treated to.

Art can come in many forms and may have tiny followings in the overall art world. Heck, a muddy unpc pickup out in the driveway might be a mona lisa in the rough.

Edit to add, that an 'honest working man's knife' very well could be a show only piece that Joe average can afford. It could be a price point rather than a rope or 2by chopper.

Take care, Craig

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

The fact that a knife is not use for cutting task and/or is embellished does not necessarily mean that it is not capable of preforming cutting task to the highest degree.

There in lies the key , unless you use it , you will never know IF that particular knife , is truly capable of performing . You may be able to theorize that it can since a similar knife was able to , but you can not say with certainty that it can.
In theory there is no difference , where in application , there is. To me a working mans knife has application.

Art can be an object , or it can be a skill. Art as in a painting ,is meant to be displayed , that is its intent , that is its use.
A car is meant to be driven , if it is never driven and only displayed , then it can be art ( or garage art - yes I have one of those ).
A knife is designed to cut , if it is not used as such , then one could easily claim it as "art " or a display piece. ( again nothing wrong with that.... I have enuff drool stains in my copy of Art of the Knife book )

I don't think anyone is saying that a damascus ivory handled hunter won't cut and function well , just that it is not what most would call a working mans' knife.

Joe said:

If you have to worry about significantly diminishing the value of a knife if you use it for tasks for which it was designed, then I say you do not have an "honest working man's knife

I would change that a bit to say : If you worry at all about diminishing the value of a knife if you use it for tasks for which it was designed, then I say you do not have an "honest working man's knife"

meaning.....a working mans knife is for using , without worry of resell value , if you are worried about resell value , you shouldn't be using it in the first place.

 

[jdm61]

To follow up on what Kevin said, I would not buy or make for that matter, a knife that cannot be used. With that said, the custom knife business has gotten to the point where a substantial number of knives will never be used or even sharpened. While the car collecting analogy is valid at some level, it falls apart somewhat when you are no longer talking about "used" collectible cars. Although most folks are not going to use their Ferrari 430 Scuderia as a daily driver, they will get driven to some degree. Even the $100K+ London Best guns traditionally were used. Now admittedly, the owner of a braced pair of Purdeys oft times had Mr. McDuff the gamekeeper or some Indian servant carrying them and cleaning them afterwards, but they were used for shooting birds nonetheless. I cannot think of another hobby other than cutlery collecting where the newly made collectible item is a tool or an item otherwise designed to be used for some pedestrian function where it does not get used. Even guys who have auto-winder cabinets full of Patek Phillipe watches wear one of them on occasion.

 

[severedthumbs]

I have a dishonest knife and I like it. ive never heard a knife tell a lie I didnt like

 

[TennKnifeman]

The honesty of a knife is determined by the goal of the owner -- and if that knife fulfills that goal. If it is to be a wall hanger, if it is a good wall hanger then it is an honest knife (at least to that owner). If the owner demands a hard use knife--and if the knife he buys is a clunky, ugly, plain-- but very functional knife--then that is an honest knife. Knives are not always a beauty contest, nor or they always a function test.

Honesty for the knifemaker comes from realizing his own place in the scheme of things. A knifemaker is a creator of a knife.

Sometimes that work displays genius, talent, and skill. That's honest.

For other knifemakers who can only copy someone else's style and whose success comes not from their knives but from their salesmanship behind a table or from constant postings promoting themselves online, there is still an honesty in that--as long as the knifemaker utilizing the good-salesman approach does not confuse himself with the genius-talent-skill knifemaker. If he understands that about himself, then he too is a honest knifemaker.

Some knifemakers are both types--but it is a very rare combination.

The danger is what Gil Hibben described to me as the "Knifemaker as God syndrome." His take on this was along the lines of "I created this knife, and as my creation you should worship it--and oh yeah, while you're at it you should worship me." I call it going on a head trip and believing your own publicity. Most call it believing in the platitudes of sycophants. It is a seductive danger that results in knifemakers with attitudes unwarranted by the quality of their work.

One of the troubling things about this thread is the vast number of posters who started off their post with, "I haven't read the article" and then started commenting. And then the flood of comments after Steve posted it so everyone could read it for free.

If you are a serious knifemaker I venture that you must read everything you can about knives--all knives--and this includes all the knife magazines. The fact that Ed's article was in a knife magazine and so few had read it, or had to run out to the newsstand to buy it says a lot for the state of knives today.

The cost of staying informed through books, magazines, etc. is expensive. But it is cheap when compared with the price of ignorance.

I hope we have not fallen into the arrogance that some believe that everything they should want to read about knives can be found totally online. The demand for Ed's article for this thread alone refutes this.

 

[Marcel54]

I cannot think of another hobby other than cutlery collecting where the newly made collectible item is a tool or an item otherwise designed to be used for some pedestrian function where it does not get used. Even guys who have auto-winder cabinets full of Patek Phillipe watches wear one of them on occasion.

Joe, I hadn't given that a thought but you are absolutely right. At this moment I'm wearing a watch that is quite a bit more expensive then my most expensive knife and I don't hesitate to wear it. I'm writing with a fountain pen for which I could easily buy two nice knives and I don't give it a second thought. But on the other hand I don't have the desire (or the urge) to use my knives. I have only one explanation for this. I see my knives as unique (as in there is only one of them in existence) while my watch or fountain pen is produced in a serie and can be replaced (but at a cost). Still I think its weird that I think like that.

Marcel

 

[RogerP]

no , that just takes it out of the " working " part of the equation in most cases , just my opinion.

Face it , most knives that are all dressed up , hardly ever see the light of day , let alone use.

Completely disagree with your second point, but I am more interested in the first. So what makes a "dishonest" knife? For an "honest" knife to have meaning, then there must be such a thing as a "dishonest" knife. Examples would be helpful.

Personally, I feel that knives are inanimate objects possessed of neither souls, nor pirits of warrior ancestors nor human virtues and vices such as honesty and dishonesty.

And as for an "honest working knife" - taking your own definition of the term - is it your perception that this type of knife is hard to find / disappearing from the custom landscape / becoming increasingly rare etc.? I sure don't.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

Just because it isn't what has been described as an honest working knife doesn't mean that it isn't an honest knife. I have many working knives, but that is not the only reason I own knives. I also am enamored by the talent that goes into making those fancy knives that never get used. If you love an honest working knife, great. If you love fancy, embellished knives, great. If you love both, that is also great. As far as I am concerned, any reason a person collects knives is the right reason.

Exactly correct. There are working knives. There are fancy knives that are capable of doing work, though the owners may not choose to do so. Neither group has any more claim to "honesty" than the other.

Roger

 

[Lorien]

one point regarding the semantics around the word 'use'- many of you refer to knives that you 'use' as 'users'. Why differentiate, if there is no difference between a knife that you cut with, and one which populates your display cabinet?

As for decorators 'using' Art to fill a space, well that's an interesting point that I will have to ruminate on...

secondly, with regards to knifemakers being sure to read all that they can and educate themselves that way, I read that Lloyd Hale, (arguably one of the true, real Artists in the fold) totally avoided any and all sorts of knife related media, including shows and gathering with other knife makers for something like 20 years. His body of work is as Artful as any I've seen.
For the record, I first heard of Lloyd Hale through a KI article.

 

[RogerP]

If you are a serious knifemaker I venture that you must read everything you can about knives--all knives--and this includes all the knife magazines.

Agreed.

The cost of staying informed through books, magazines, etc. is expensive. But it is cheap when compared with the price of ignorance.

I hope we have not fallen into the arrogance that some believe that everything they should want to read about knives can be found totally online. The demand for Ed's article for this thread alone refutes this.

I generally find arrogance to be more consistently displayed by those who express the contrary proposition: that little or nothing of informational value can be found on-line, only in print. Your participation in this thread alone would seem to refute this.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

The honesty of a knife is determined by the goal of the owner -- and if that knife fulfills that goal. If it is to be a wall hanger, if it is a good wall hanger then it is an honest knife (at least to that owner). If the owner demands a hard use knife--and if the knife he buys is a clunky, ugly, plain-- but very functional knife--then that is an honest knife. Knives are not always a beauty contest, nor or they always a function test.

Honesty for the knifemaker comes from realizing his own place in the scheme of things. A knifemaker is a creator of a knife.

Sometimes that work displays genius, talent, and skill. That's honest.

For other knifemakers who can only copy someone else's style and whose success comes not from their knives but from their salesmanship behind a table or from constant postings promoting themselves online, there is still an honesty in that--as long as the knifemaker utilizing the good-salesman approach does not confuse himself with the genius-talent-skill knifemaker. If he understands that about himself, then he too is a honest knifemaker.

Some knifemakers are both types--but it is a very rare combination.

The danger is what Gil Hibben described to me as the "Knifemaker as God syndrome." His take on this was along the lines of "I created this knife, and as my creation you should worship it--and oh yeah, while you're at it you should worship me." I call it going on a head trip and believing your own publicity. Most call it believing in the platitudes of sycophants. It is a seductive danger that results in knifemakers with attitudes unwarranted by the quality of their work.

One of the troubling things about this thread is the vast number of posters who started off their post with, "I haven't read the article" and then started commenting. And then the flood of comments after Steve posted it so everyone could read it for free.

If you are a serious knifemaker I venture that you must read everything you can about knives--all knives--and this includes all the knife magazines. The fact that Ed's article was in a knife magazine and so few had read it, or had to run out to the newsstand to buy it says a lot for the state of knives today.

The cost of staying informed through books, magazines, etc. is expensive. But it is cheap when compared with the price of ignorance.

I hope we have not fallen into the arrogance that some believe that everything they should want to read about knives can be found totally online. The demand for Ed's article for this thread alone refutes this.

All excellent points Bruce.

Many collectors fully buy into the "God Syndrome" as evident from the tremendous praise some makers receive on forums regardless of the quality of the knives they post. And it's not only makers who suffer from the "God Syndrome" either.

I believe the issue goes beyond knife enthusiast only reading/seeking information on-line but even worst by some only being exposed to knives via photos on-line rather than actually handling and examining them.

 

[Kevin Jones]

To follow up on what Kevin said, I would not buy or make for that matter, a knife that cannot be used. With that said, the custom knife business has gotten to the point where a substantial number of knives will never be used or even sharpened. While the car collecting analogy is valid at some level, it falls apart somewhat when you are no longer talking about "used" collectible cars. Although most folks are not going to use their Ferrari 430 Scuderia as a daily driver, they will get driven to some degree. Even the $100K+ London Best guns traditionally were used. Now admittedly, the owner of a braced pair of Purdeys oft times had Mr. McDuff the gamekeeper or some Indian servant carrying them and cleaning them afterwards, but they were used for shooting birds nonetheless. I cannot think of another hobby other than cutlery collecting where the newly made collectible item is a tool or an item otherwise designed to be used for some pedestrian function where it does not get used. Even guys who have auto-winder cabinets full of Patek Phillipe watches wear one of them on occasion.

Perhaps this is because a car, shotgun or watch can be used for their functional purpose and cleaned without leaving evidence it has been used.
Knives are much less likely to be used to cut without leaving evidence thus reducing their monetary value.

Severed, where have you been? I have missed your point of view as of late.