Ed Fowler You Need to open your eyes

[John T Wylie Jr]

And as for an "honest working knife" - taking your own definition of the term - is it your perception that this type of knife is hard to find / disappearing from the custom landscape / becoming increasingly rare etc.? I sure don't.

Roger

Roger:
I see plenty of honest working knives out there. That part I do disagree with Ed on. The majority of these knives seem to be from the newer makers , which is understandable , since as a makers skills increase , so does the demand for his work and also the prices they bring ( also understandable ).
I am sure each of us has a price point at which a knife is no longer going to be used , income or amount of mad money available is different for each of us. So while a $500 knife might be a working mans knife to one perosn , it might be $200 to another .

Exactly correct. There are working knives. There are fancy knives that are capable of doing work, though the owners may not choose to do so. Neither group has any more claim to "honesty" than the other.

That is correct , that the owners choose not to , means they are not a working mans knife. Neither group has any more weight in the honest department , however they do differ in the work dept ( or the willingness to be used for work ).

The question was raised , what is a dishonest working mans knife ? That would be a knife that uses high end fancy material to make up for sub-par workmanship. A rarity ? Perhaps , but I have seen examples of this.

I would go out on a limb to say , the majority of the knives out there fit into the honest criteria , its when you get to the working part , as in actually used for work , that they no longer fit the term " Honest working mans knife ".
Honest , they are , used for cutting work , perhaps not.

Joe, I hadn't given that a thought but you are absolutely right. At this moment I'm wearing a watch that is quite a bit more expensive then my most expensive knife and I don't hesitate to wear it. I'm writing with a fountain pen for which I could easily buy two nice knives and I don't give it a second thought. But on the other hand I don't have the desire (or the urge) to use my knives. I have only one explanation for this. I see my knives as unique (as in there is only one of them in existence) while my watch or fountain pen is produced in a serie and can be replaced (but at a cost). Still I think its weird that I think like that.
Marcel

Nothing at all wrong with your thinking , and you said it best , you dont have the desire to use your knives , you do have the desire to use other stuff.

A few years ago , I was sitting at my desk thinking the same thoughts ( although the price of the items I was using were less ). I realized that while I was collecting more knives than I was using , the ones not being used did not bring me enuff satisfaction to warrant me to keep them.

So whatever knives/gear I felt I wouldn't or couldn't bring myself to use were sold ( some given away to friends ). I get my enjoyment in using ( that is my cross to bear ) , though as you can see , just like knives , each one of us is different. That is a definite good thing.:thumbup:

Magazines:
While I used to read all the magazines , cover to cover , I find a lot of the info repetitve , and some of the articles a bit jaded and biased. I now go to the newstand , leaf thru the magazine , if it has articles of interest I buy it , if not I don't. Just like forums , see a thread I like , I participate , see one I don't , I won't.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Perhaps this is because a car, shotgun or watch can be used for their functional purpose and cleaned without leaving evidence it has been used.
Knives are much less likely to be used to cut without leaving evidence thus reducing their monetary value.

Unsure about watches , but a car has a speedometer , use the car , increase the mileage , that trace can't legally be removed. Neither can the wear placed on the engine or reciprocating parts (unless all replaced ).

Regardless of how you use a firearm , knowledgeable folks can tell if it has been used.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Unsure about watches , but a car has a speedometer , use the car , increase the mileage , that trace can't legally be removed. Neither can the wear placed on the engine or reciprocating parts (unless all replaced ).

Regardless of how you use a firearm , knowledgeable folks can tell if it has been used.

John you are distorting my point to serve your purpose.

I wasn't addressing someone taking a 1/2 million dollar 67 Corvette and turning it into a daily user, or was I talking about taking a Purdey and using it regularly as your deer gun but more using it under VERY limited circumstances, perhaps on a Saturday afternoon once, twice a year.
I will run my Corvettes around my driveway loop a couple times a year just to insure the brake calipers don't seize up and to insure the tires don't get flat spots. By the way, replacing original parts on a classic Corvette will diminish it's value more than using it.

On the flip side, considering the dedication, the experience and pride the makers of my collection knives put into their work, I have no doubt that any of them will perform equal or better to most if not all knives made today.
If I was to take one of my Fisk bowies out to cut 4" saplings and such for a Saturday afternoon though the blade would not be damaged (probably not even require sharpening), however this use would be distinguishable on the blade and the monetary value would somewhat be compromised.

 

[RogerP]

The question was raised , what is a dishonest working mans knife ? That would be a knife that uses high end fancy material to make up for sub-par workmanship. A rarity ? Perhaps , but I have seen examples of this.

You've already told me that an embellished knife with fancy materials is not a working knife. Not a dishonest knife, just a not a working knife.

A poorly made knife is just that - poorly made - whether it be plain or fancy. Again, honesty of the knife doesn't really enter into it.

My overriding point is that "honesty" really has no place as a defining element of a knife. Those that appropriate the term to describe their knives are doing so in a purely self-serving way, IMHO.

And yes - I agree with you that working knives are in plentiful supply. As are fancy knives. They all have value to the people that buy them.

Roger

 

[Lorien]

I was having a problem with the word 'honesty' during this discussion, and like Roger, I feel that the word doesn't transfer well to talking about the functionality of a knife, particularly in the contexts we are accustomed to in this forum.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I was having a problem with the word 'honesty' during this discussion, and like Roger, I feel that the word doesn't transfer well to talking about the functionality of a knife, particularly in the contexts we are accustomed to in this forum.

I too have a problem with the phrase "honest knife" as I do with "working man's knife". Thought my knives may be considered quite "fancy", I have worked my ass off since I was 12 to finally be able to afford them. So to me, they are a "working man's knife".

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

not distorting your point , clarifying Regardless of use , it can still be discovered to have been used , that was my point. I do understand

I agree on the point about your Fisk , however wouldn't it feel darn good to use it ?

off topic: if you ever post picts of them Vettes' , please let me know , I would love to see em. Which reminds me , I need to rotate the tires on the 61 Bonnie , now that I have the NOS fuel pump for it.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

My overriding point is that "honesty" really has no place as a defining element of a knife. Those that appropriate the term to describe their knives are doing so in a purely self-serving way, IMHO.

You are correct, perhaps the honest in Ed's thought , was referring to the working man and not the knife after all ?

 

[ddd]

I too have a problem with the phrase "honest knife" as I do with "working man's knife". Thought my knives may be considered quite "fancy", I have worked my ass off since I was 12 to finally be able to afford them. So to me, they are a "working man's knife".

I liked that Kevin!

I have been dreaming about my knives for many (MANY!!) years, and
therefore feel that to me they are "Dreamer's Knives"...

And it is not that I didn't work hard to make my dreams come true.

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[Lorien]

Thought my knives may be considered quite "fancy", I have worked my ass off since I was 12 to finally be able to afford them. So to me, they are a "working man's knife".

Touche!

 

[Don Hanson III]

I have never understood the term "Honest Working Man's Knife"....

I'm an honest working man and make knives for same

What would a 'Dishonest Non-working Man's Knife' look like?

 

[TennKnifeman]

Quote: "I generally find arrogance to be more consistently displayed by those who express the contrary proposition: that little or nothing of informational value can be found on-line, only in print. Your participation in this thread alone would seem to refute this."
Roger

Not sure of your point. I'm here. I'm posting. I'm reading online. I know that Steve Dick and Steve Shackleford do as well.

As Kevin can tell you from my talk at the Fisk Mini Show, I encouraged everyone there to read EVERYTHING. And I told the group at that time that if they did not read knife magazines they were only half-informed. And the reverse is true as well, anyone that reads only knife magazines for all their information is also only half-informed. That is certainly not an arrogant position.

There's plenty to be found online related to knives that is valuable, just as there is in magazines. But for a serious knifemaker or collector to ignore either is absolute stupidity in my opinion. Knowledge in its many forms is valuable. And ignorance will end up costing in the end.

There is a vital difference between online postings and knife magazines though. In magazines the facts are checked, and what is said there is filtered and refined by editors whose business is to make it readable, correct, and hopefully informative and entertaining. Like all humans sometimes that is not 100%. Overall I think I can say that what is written in knife magazines is percentage wise more accurate than what is online--especially in open forums.

On the other hand in the online world if you have a computer, and opinion, and time to be on your computer, you can attain online credibility. Multi-posting does not insure the poster has a clue about what they are talking about--it insures only that the poster has an opinion. And that opinion is presented with the same force, credibility, and type face as a poster with many years of experience and savvy.

My primary concern in this vein is not what is being posted--that is the nature of the online forums. My concern is for a newcomer who can't tell the difference, and takes incorrect information and treats it as gospel.

For someone to say "I buy all my knives online", or "I get all my information from being online" just tells me that that person still has a lot to learn, and there is a lot they will miss.

 

[Kevin Jones]

not distorting your point , clarifying Regardless of use , it can still be discovered to have been used , that was my point. I do understand

I agree on the point about your Fisk , however wouldn't it feel darn good to use it ?

off topic: if you ever post picts of them Vettes' , please let me know , I would love to see em. Which reminds me , I need to rotate the tires on the 61 Bonnie , now that I have the NOS fuel pump for it.

I have one Fisk I use and my two most valuable I would especially love to use as in hand they feel as though there's nothing they couldn't cut.

Here's my two current Vettes from DDD's other hobby thread. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=603123&page=15

Sorry, to go off topic here but please send me a PM with engine and carbration you have on your 61.

 

[TennKnifeman]

Quote: "secondly, with regards to knifemakers being sure to read all that they can and educate themselves that way, I read that Lloyd Hale, (arguably one of the true, real Artists in the fold) totally avoided any and all sorts of knife related media, including shows and gathering with other knife makers for something like 20 years. His body of work is as Artful as any I've seen.
For the record, I first heard of Lloyd Hale through a KI article."

As for Lloyd Hale developing his art without outside influences, that was not a decision from Lloyd, but a decision from his benefactor who bought everything Lloyd made for over 20 years. The patron was making a huge dollar investment annually to allow Lloyd to do that. If any other knifemakers are able to find that kind of benefactor, I would encourage them to do the same thing. If not, if they want to remain marketable, they'd better stay in touch and informed.

The KI article we ran was entitled, "The Long Lost Lloyd Hale." More than a few people asked "Lloyd Who?".

The other vital thing about Lloyd is that artistically he was 20 years ahead of everyone else, in my opinion.

He stopped setting up at shows, because Mr. Frazier had first option on everything he made and he bought everything Lloyd made.

I do not recall him stopping his magazine subscriptions, as he was able to call me when it came time to appraise that 23 year collection of Lloyd's knives, where were donated to The Frazier International History & Antique Arms Museum. By the way if you attend the Knifemaker's Guild Show in Louisville this year, that museum is nearby.

 

[Lorien]

I'd love to check out that exhibit!
Thanks for the background, Mr. Voyles. Lloyd Hale's is an interesting story, but I feel as though I only know the Coles Notes version. His story would be worthy of a book devoted to it, don't you think?

 

[jdm61]

I have never understood the term "Honest Working Man's Knife"....

I'm an honest working man and make knives for same

What would a 'Dishonest Non-working Man's Knife' look like?

It would probably have a handle made from a $400 piece of fossil ivory.......ducking behind the couch now

 

[TennKnifeman]

Lorien,

Mr. Voyles is a retired 84-year-old pipefitter who lives in North Carolina. He served as an Aviation Ordanceman as at Petty Officer on the USS Intrepid (CV-11) in World War II, and financed the first knives I ever owned--as well as in later years assisting me at tables at knife shows and even taking up admissions at the early Blade Shows.

I'm not Mr. Voyles. I'm Bruce.

 

[jdm61]

I too have a problem with the phrase "honest knife" as I do with "working man's knife". Thought my knives may be considered quite "fancy", I have worked my ass off since I was 12 to finally be able to afford them. So to me, they are a "working man's knife".

Yes, Kevin, but from what I have seen, you keep them in acrylic display cases. As for the Purdeys, they were used whenever Lord Ballsmack wanted to blow up some grouse. He probably didn't have them in a display case and an old beater Greener with all of the bluing and case color worn off that he actually hunted with. The "safe queen" phenomenon is not the fault of the makers IMO. When the custom knife game got rolling, I think that most makers wanted to make the high quality cutting instruments that they felt were unavailable in the normal chain of commerce. The custom knife is arguably a victim of its own popularity. How many times have we seen threads where someone has bought a "user" or "field grade" knife from a maker and says I would love to use it, but I can't justify it because it will diminish the value of the knife? The funny part is that a lot of the people who we refer to as synchophants actually USE the knives that they aquire from the makers/companies that they allegedly worship. Think about Busse. I'm sure that there are still a number of people out there who actually use their Randalls........GADZOOKS!!!! This "safe queen" thing creates a bit of a quandry, particularly for the newer maker. The average collector is not going to use a knife that cost over X amount, because the value will be diminished. Yet if the same collector wants to actually buy a using knife, then he will want this knife to display 90-95% of the quality of uber-expensive unused user that costs X, but will only be willing to pay 1/2 or, in many cases, 1/3 or 1/4 of X. That just seems like a way to discourage newer guys from making users because while ALL of the knives from the big guys have gone up in price at a rate that, in most cases, keeps up with inflation at a minimum, the new guy is having to charge about the same as what someone would have gotten 10-15 years ago for a knife of similar quality. Collectors have raised the bar as far as the quality of fit and finish, etc that they will accept regardless of the experience level of the maker, but, in most cases, they haven't had to pay proportionally for the across the board improvements that they have demanded.

 

[RogerP]

Quote: "I generally find arrogance to be more consistently displayed by those who express the contrary proposition: that little or nothing of informational value can be found on-line, only in print. Your participation in this thread alone would seem to refute this."
Roger

Not sure of your point. I'm here. I'm posting. I'm reading online. I know that Steve Dick and Steve Shackleford do as well.

My point is that the fact that someone of your experience and expertise is participating in an on-line discussion forum would tend to refute those who arrogantly declare that there is little or nothing of value to found on-line in respect of custom knives. I've seen that in print. I would submit that such a statement is equally ignorant as one which holds that you can "get it all" on-line.

I was agreeing with your point that someone who is serious about knives will seek information from all venues - and emphasising that there is value to be found in all venues.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

Roger

 

[RogerP]

You are correct, perhaps the honest in Ed's thought , was referring to the working man and not the knife after all ?

I'm not Ed, so I can't say - but you may be on to something there John.

Roger