Ed Fowler

Why doesn't the ABS have...

Can the ABS get out of it's box?

Some people join organizations with the intent to do their part in making it better. To sit on the outside of "the box" and ask questions accomplishes little. Sometimes you have to work on expanding the box from the inside. Afraid to get your hands dirty?:D

Back when the ABS was starting out there just weren’t many smiths who had been around 20-30 years. Now there are quite a few.

Nuff said.


Rick
 
I have questions about ABS but it seems to be a subject that causes a lot of bad feelings. I will keep my questions for a select few to try to keep from getting people mad at each other.
Please don’t get too mad guys. There are always 3 sides to a story.

-Zech
 
Maybe if an organization puts guidelines out ahead of time, there's no misunderstanding of the requirements. I'm sure most of us have to live in our own versions of the real world. It's my understanding that there's an ABS rated MS that jumped though the hoops twice, possibly out of respect for the rules of the organization.

D.F. turned in his stamp because he felt that the organization had wandered away from it's mission statement. Why he went back I have no idea...
 
Some people join organizations with the intent to do their part in making it better. To sit on the outside of "the box" and ask questions accomplishes little. Sometimes you have to work on expanding the box from the inside. Afraid to get your hands dirty?:D



Nuff said.


Rick

Sometimes you can see the problems more clearly from the outside... and I have no intentions of putting myself inside another box (that happens automatically)... my hands are plenty dirty enough. :)
 
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Some years back I started through the process of joining the Knifemakers
Guild.
Attending my first show in Orlando FL, I presented the knives I had made for inspection. All went well until one judge said the handle, on one fighter, should not have been made the way I had intentionally made it.
My instincts told me to speak up and inform the judge that the knife was made that way by design and I believed my design was better thought out than the one he was trying to enlighten me on. In actuality, I kept my mouth shut. That was as far as I went with joining.

After that episode I figured the best approach in dealing with knife clubs, organizations, mentoring programs or the like, was to focus on the individuals in the groups and not on the organization itself.
By taking this tack, I have the best of both worlds. I have many friends that belong to the ABS the Guild and other groups, but I do not have to deal with the egos or politics that go along with joining.
I have found the knife making world to be full of wonderful people and I enjoy the camaraderie and friendship of that organization.



Peace, Fred
 
That's it huh Fred?

Yep!

Individuals good/organizations bad.

That's the key! :)
 
Um, what are we talking about again??? ;)

In all fairness, I would have a bad taste had I had experiences like JCaswell lined out. Can't blame you one bit on that.

But I do think that would be the exception rather than the norm.

The engineer in me can appreciate my good friend Fitzo's post about hyped B.S. as well. His background as a chemist push him to look at facts and figures just like mine does (most of the time, LOL) and someone simply sticking their chest out and telling you they have a nuclear fusion reactor coffee can in their shop doesn't just blindly impress you.

However, for me, coming into all of this bladesmithing stuff much later on, I have never had those experiences. In fact many of the mastersmiths that I know well, are good friends with stock removal makers and respect what those men do.



I have said it before, but I'll say it again just for kicks.... The idea that the ABS should change its focus is much akin to the boys that want to join the girl scouts or the kids driving 5 year old import tuners wanting to join a classic car club.

There's NOTHING wrong with either one of those... but wanting one to join the other is like putting a square peg in a round hole (or so me thinks).



So how much does it cost to join the TGBFBNO (Tai Goo Box Free Bladesmithing Non-Organization) ??? ;) :D
 
O.K. I am violating several of my personal rules and principles by posting here a second time, and I will not be dragged into the sophistry being presented, but I cannot let my very good and respected friend Fitzo dangle in the wind here.

In September I moved www.cashenblades.com to an entirely new server and am in the process of overhauling the entire site with a whole new section on blademaking information that will include a more interactive magazine style format for my articles. As I prepare that, I am removing old articles for updating while adding entirely new ones. The article Fitzo refers to did exist but will be replaced with an entirely new one that fully explains the real physics and material properties involved, or not invovled, in bogus claims made by things as irrelevant as bend testing.

Upon reading, the nuances of meaning for any writing will be interpreted differently by each reader, the only one who can say for certain what the meaning of the writing was is the writer himself. So here I am once again to give it, as beginner930 put it, straight from the horses mouth (although I am sure there a few who would refer you to the other end ;))

The article “Revenge of the Bladesiths” was my hokey attempt at using allegory involving the Star Wars saga to illustrate what happens when an innocent or good intentioned effort is hijacked by shameless self promotion. The article is indeed relevant to this discussion as it illustrates how I witnessed a positive change in the ABS when it refocused on its role as an educational organization which takes responsibility in providing sound information instead of a fan club for the forged blade that allowed itself to be misused by myth pandering agendas.

The focus of the article was not the ABS at all, but the misuse and total misinterpretation by many of the ABS bend test, a test that I have made no secret of my feelings of being pointless. But I feel as long as it is only used to determine a smiths ability to control heat it is rather harmless. However when it is totally misapplied or hijacked as a sign of superiority or quality of the knife itself it then becomes a very negative influence on the entire craft by preying on ignorance of the true physics involving the nature of steel strength and elasticity. It is also at this point, as Fitzo rightly points out, that the concept (or more accurately- misconception) is misused as a tool to claim superiority over knives made in another way; a pretty bold position considering it is based upon utter nonsense. Thus the article was about the dangers and negative effects of the over reaching use of ABS concepts for shameless self promotion instead of participating in the positive educational goals of the group. In the article I confessed to once having a poster showing a blade being bent as proof of its quality when I first joined the group and had not yet taken the responsibility of my own education; so the article was in part a penance for my sins of ignorance in the past.

The thing was written perhaps four years ago and so has no direct connection to this current rehashing of the tired old topic except for the uncanny irony that Fitzo knowingly or unknowingly, due to recollection, brings into focus. Until the new article is done, as always, I urge people to do their own research into Young’s modulus vs. plasticity to understand why the test should be about the smith and not the knives if it wants to maintain any credibility.

Since I prefer expenditure of my time on factual information, I would now appreciate the courtesy being left out of this conversation which is mostly heated opinion and will result in very little positive accomplishments as it proceeds.

P.S. to Mr. Winkler:

Dan forgive me for not including you in my references to judges, I have not personally served on a panel with you so I could not with certainty speak for you as a judge so I thought it safer to mention that there could be “others” present. I have always had the deepest respect for your work and after reading your very sensible appeals here will have an even deeper respect for you.
 
I think Fred really hit the nail on the head!

The “individuals” in the ABS are such good folks,... they will share their information and help you, whether you are a member of the ABS or not… for free!

You won't even need to ask. :)
 
....
Upon reading, the nuances of meaning for any writing will be interpreted differently by each reader, the only one who can say for certain what the meaning of the writing was is the writer himself. ....

Since I prefer expenditure of my time on factual information, I would now appreciate the courtesy being left out of this conversation which is mostly heated opinion and will result in very little positive accomplishments as it proceeds.

......

Thank you for the gentleness of your explanation, Kevin.
I realized a bit too late for editing that I should not have mentioned you or your article in any reference, and apologize for doing so. Lesson learned.
 
You won't even need to ask. :)

I laughed out loud at that one, Tai. :D

One of the things I do appreciate about you, Tai, besides your amazing work, is that no matter how heated a discussion gets, you always stay light-hearted with heavy thoughts.

--nathan
 
In all fairness, I would have a bad taste had I had experiences like JCaswell lined out. Can't blame you one bit on that.

But I do think that would be the exception rather than the norm ...

I admit it colored my opinion of a little while, but not long.

I only brought it up here because:

1. It's entertaining to relive (for me anyway!:D)
2. Someone else mentioned similar conduct by other members, and it spurred my memory.

I don't want to insinuate that my sample (N=1) is indicative of the behavior of the membership or its culture. Not at all!

Still, an MS is very much an ambassador for the organization ... Kind of the converse of what Tai was saying, in this case ... This time, the individual may be a liability to the organization. :o

I don't know, I just take it as a personal warning/lesson not to be 2-faced. (Respectful and cordial to my elevated "peers", and demeaning and imperious to others).

Man, I don't want to be like that!:(
That could probably happen to anyone at some level.
 
Okay. I play the role of Captain Obvious once again. Some people obviously have issues with the ABS. This is the case with ALL organizations. How do you think we ended up with so many Christian denominations in the US?:D However, some folks seem to be saying that the ABS in its current from may actually be a detriment to the art of knifemaking. I have but one simple question for all of you metal pounders reading this thread. How did you come to be interested in the forged blade and where did you learn your craft? I anxiously await your answers.
 
I've been kinda skip reading the various postings, pro and con, and am beginning to wonder if Groucho Marx might have been onto something with his statement that he would never join an orginization that would have him as a member.
Tai, to be honest, I have never cared for your style in blades, or most of your views on knifemaking or life in general, although I recognize and respect your skills, but from some of your postings here, you have gained a degree of respect from me. Ed Fowler included. I don't need any mark on my knives, but my own. If I did, I would find something else to do. A mans work needs only to speak for itself, and the man doing it. No matter the method of his labors.
 
I started making knives when in grade school, over 30 years before the abs. I was obsessed with knives as a tool.

My girlfriends grand father had been a 'mechanic' in the gold mines, he forged candle stick holders to light the mines before the time of carbide lamps. His name was Sid Varney. He stamped his candle holders Varney. As a matter of fact me made some of them making his own Damascus steel. Again 30 years before Bill Moran made his.

Next came two more 'mechanics' from the gold mines. They were pure magic to watch, I fell in love with their abilities.

The concept of sharing was not new to the abs, these men shared all they had to share willingly. The problem was they did not have anyone interested enough to listen to them, when I showed an interest they welcomed me with open arms.

My grandfather told me that the forged blade was the best there was and to always look for the word "forged" on any knives I bought.

Do not take this as a slam to the stock removal makers, the question was asked and this is the honest way I got interested in the forged blade. I was maybe 8 years old at the time.

My grandmother read me the story about King Arthur and how Excalibur was forged from a falling star by the little people.

I saw the movie "The Iron Mistress", then read the book about how the blade was forged and thought the heat 7 times.

My course was set at that time.
 
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...One of the things I do appreciate about you, Tai, besides your amazing work, is that no matter how heated a discussion gets, you always stay light-hearted with heavy thoughts.

Just using your line as an example Nathan. I'd hope someone with reasonable opposition to an organization could offer concrete solutions rather than philosophize in circles. The heavy thoughts would make more sense if they were explained and solved.

Absolutely, Tai you're an amazing craftsman that can create and control like few others can. I don't think individuals are as effective in spreading a message, and most higher education institutions wouldn't touch the craft with a ten foot pole. Judicious use of the internet seems to be a huge tool for awareness and advancement of the craft.

Craig
 
JDM61,

I was a bored motorcycle journalist.
(I learned early that I didn't want to continue doing staff work, despite the many rewards, so I leveraged my position into a contract/freelance gig, wherein I would write the major feature every month, but remotely. I got good at it and could do my month's work in less than 2 weeks. The point being, I had time to study other things.)

I actually started serious fabrication making wheellock firearms. I spent 2 full years researching that complex lock and trying to make one that would strike with iron pyrite. I learned how to make all those crazy springs and tiny little roller-chain. Heat treat, you name it. I eventually succeeded and built a run of 12 fancy pistols.

I then noticed damascus barrels.

I started with a book by Sachse and Figiel and some non-desrcript forgework books from the library, also some old stuff by a gunmaker named Bivens.
I just wanted to make barrels, but decided I'd study the knife first because it seemed easier (at least from a PW standpoint). I soon realized there was a lot to learn and instantly gained great appreciation for the fine knife for it's sophistication and eloquence ---There can be so much function and logic manifest in such a seemingly simple implement --- I found that intrinsically attractive.

I never did get around to making barrels.

I got stuck doing early medieval-style pattern welding and have loved and hated making that stuff since.
Now I do a lot more design of modern stuff. Inventing stuff and designing for production is equally fascinating to me, and filled with its own formidable challenges. It's kinda strange to spend half the day on SolidWorks and stressing tenths of thousandths, cycle times and feed rates for one project and the other half forging steel for another.

My gun and forge endeavors have been largely done in isolation, though I would not necessarily consider that some kind of benefit or anything. Still, you can learn anything if you can study the industrial applications (past and/or present) that relate to what you're trying to do, which has been my primary tack. :thumbup:
A good focused educational club could probably make things easier and a lot more fun.
 
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I anxiously await your answers.

From my local blacksmith guild. I was so oblivious of the ABS at the time that I had no idea who Bill Moran was, or that he lived 45 minutes from where I was taking the class....

Not to say that ABS 'smiths have not been a huge help to me in the years since, but I found the 'smiths first and THEN the ABS...

-d
 
.... How did you come to be interested in the forged blade and where did you learn your craft? I anxiously await your answers.

I was captured as a babe by a band of freethinker anarchist dwarf metalworkers and raised underground in a cave smithy.
When they sent me out into the sunlit world above to seek my fortune, I was warned I would always be dissatisfied with the machinations of Man.
So far, it seems they were correct.
:)
 
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