Edge Pro Matrix resin bond diamond stones

[Blues]

D Diemaker
I know you mentioned how these can be dressed with the 60 sic and 240 Alox grit sand, but will a 140 Diamond Atoma plate work as well for either of them?

Not David, and he can fill you in further but...

Not recommended. Avoid diamond on diamond.

Go with loose grit. (Even a medium or coarse rust eraser for cleaning and light duty can be quite useful.) Shawn also recommends using nagura stones but I have no experience with them.

 

[Glock Guy]

Not David, and he can fill you in further but...

Not recommended. Avoid diamond on diamond.

Go with loose grit. (Even a medium or coarse rust eraser for cleaning and light duty can be quite useful.) Shawn also recommends using nagura stones but I have no experience with them.

Copy that, and thanks for the quick response sir!

 

[Diemaker]

Nope, it would probably lap flats on the diamonds on your Atoma plate and not do much good for the Matrix stone.

 

[DeadboxHero]

More of a coarse "dressing" stone than a fine grit Japanese "nagura"


100-220 grit.

I'm making the distinction because some may be using too high of a grit, over time it won't cut the bond and just smooth it over. At the same time don't want to go gnarly coarse and chew up the bond either.

That 220grit Aluminum Oxide abrasive powder sold by Edge Pro works the best on the matrix stones.

Other stones I've found other grits worked better, seems to do with the bond hardness on the stone and the stone grit.

Not David, and he can fill you in further but...

Not recommended. Avoid diamond on diamond.

Go with loose grit. (Even a medium or coarse rust eraser for cleaning and light duty can be quite useful.) Shawn also recommends using nagura stones but I have no experience with them.

 

[Diemaker]

This post is simply to add to a video I made sharpening my Spyderco Maxamet knife with my EP Matrix stones. Here are the photos I took with my microscope to show the edge after sharpening. I didn't notice the damage to the edge until I was watching the video but being my EDC beater I wouldn't try removing them anyway, but I do find them quite interesting.

This is what the edge should look like, this is towards the tip.

This is an interesting wave of some sort, not sure how it happened.

And the ugly! Keep in mind the bevel is about .06" wide so the chips are not that big of a deal, but I haven't done much with this knife. I cut a few pieces of cardboard and cut the tape off of some aluminum bars, which is where I think this happened. I am a bit surprised at the chipping. It is only the 5th sharpening and 30 degrees inclusive, maybe I need a microbevel to increase toughness. Still learning so just part of the fun.

Here is the video.

 

[RustyIron]

Nice. It's good to see how others work and the results you get.

Points to ponder:
I need to look closer into installing magnets.
I need to think about newfangled slide guide.
Is 1.0 micron diamond on leather too aggressive for regular steel?

I noticed your scope pics are far better than my own. Granted, my scope is the cheapest one I could find because I wasn't sure I would really utilize it. What are you using?

 

[DeadboxHero]

Rusty, use the diamond spray, not the paste, I use it on all my knives.

I like the Portland Knife House diamond spray best.

Nice. It's good to see how others work and the results you get.

Points to ponder:
I need to look closer into installing magnets.
I need to think about newfangled slide guide.
Is 1.0 micron diamond on leather too aggressive for regular steel?

I noticed your scope pics are far better than my own. Granted, my scope is the cheapest one I could find because I wasn't sure I would really utilize it. What are you using?

 

[DeadboxHero]

Just playing around on the edge pro with the diamond matrix stones. Last week, I was playing around with the Venev OCB 1200 grit (5/3um) and 2000 grit (1um) which is a 100% concentration on my k390 pm2 at 63.5rc.(I Rockwell tested mine.)
The Venev's were neat. The 100% concentration will still leave some deeper scratches but not as horrific as the older "b" bond that had copper in it which is no longer sold in the higher grit.

This week, it's diamond matrix stones

Looks like the edge trailing strokes do better for David's stones.

That video was helpful

before I was getting 140g BESS when using the 2300 and 4000 matrix stones back and forth strokes with light touch.

I set the apex with the 1100 matrix stone with back and forth passes to a burr on each side and removed it with light touch back and forth strokes alternating sides to 120g Bess.

I'd still recommend setting the apex with back and forth passes and making a burr up to the 1100 matrix stone, otherwise, it will take a lifetime to sharpen and you might not be removing damage and Apexing properly.



All the matrix stones were Flattened with 220grit alox powder on a smooth granite tile and cleaned before use just as David recommended for maintenance.

I than followed what David did in the video and did edge trailing passes with light touch and watched the finish get brighter but only with the finishing stones to refine the apex I set at 1100.

The 1100 makes a bright matte finish with some mirror but not a true mirror.

The finish really pops with the 2300 stone.

Without Stropping, from 120g to 99g

Stropping with 1um diamond spray on leather cleaned up the finish more and dropped the BESS a little to 96g and the edge was definitely crisper off the Strop and could treetop hair with ease.

I'd be happy just staying at the 2300 but I went up to the 4000.

The finish was more brilliant and dropped down to 89g Bess.

I went to 1um diamond spray on leather to strop again and was at 76g Bess.

I could Strop with 0.5um to 0.1um to 0.025um to Ken Schwartzs 0.003um and get a lower Bess number to show off, but I'm satisfied with this edge, it has a tiny bit of bite to it and it's crisp. I don't really like to overpolish my edge.

This is an improvement over when I was using David's 2300 and 4000 with back and forth passes. The Venev stones didn't seem as picky.

I'mma use this edge for a bit and see what I think than try the Venev OCB again.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Some key take aways for me on using these matrix stones is to keep them flat and only Flatten and dress with the 240grit aluminum oxide powder.

I tried some 120grit SiC but it chewed up the bond too much.

The two finishing stones work better with edge trailing strokes.

The bench clamp mount, magnet and slide guide are also important upgrades for the edge pro in that order. They reduce the learning curve and help speed up the process and increase the consistency.

The spring ball arm was just more convenient.

I found using a system was a lot different than freehand, I had assumed it would be easier but it's a different mindset and process yet somethings are the same such as the fundamentals of sharpening itself.

 

[Glock Guy]

DeadboxHero Great write up, especially with the bess testing!

I thought D Diemaker said these stones did not need to be dressed when new? I thought he just mentioned he did his in the video since they have been used pretty heavily. Maybe he can chime in to verify the dress/don’t dress when new part?

 

[DeadboxHero]

They don't need to be dressed or Flattened when new.

I've had them for a few months, I've been playing around with them.

I thought it was important to note that I Flattened and dressed before testing.

It will be important to maintain them over time for best performance is what I was getting at.

DeadboxHero Great write up, especially with the bess testing!

I thought D Diemaker said these stones did not need to be dressed when new? I thought he just mentioned he did his in the video since they have been used pretty heavily. Maybe he can chime in to verify the dress/don’t dress when new part?

 

[Glock Guy]

They don't need to be dressed or Flattened when new.

I've had them for a few months, I've been playing around with them.

I thought it was important to note that I Flattened and dressed before testing.

It will be important to maintain them over time for best performance is what I was getting at.

Copy that. I have a new Edge Pro setup coming next week with the DM stones so I just wanted to make sure.

 

[HKGuns]

I really like the DM stones from EP, I also think the magnet and bench clamp are important upgrades.

 

[Diemaker]

Nice. It's good to see how others work and the results you get.

Points to ponder:
I need to look closer into installing magnets.
I need to think about newfangled slide guide.
Is 1.0 micron diamond on leather too aggressive for regular steel?

I noticed your scope pics are far better than my own. Granted, my scope is the cheapest one I could find because I wasn't sure I would really utilize it. What are you using?

Sorry it took so long to respond. I have been busy working and wanted to improve my video. I just posted a new one to replace the last one, and changed the link in post #325 to the new video. Pretty much the same but a little more content that is presented better.

My microscope is a Carl Zeiss that I inherited when my father-in-law passed, he was a MD. I then got a USB eyepiece for it to take pictures with. That microscope has completely changed the way I sharpen, I find it quite invaluable!
For most steels I like bare leather for stropping. Even 1 micron diamond will scratch the apex more than the 4k stone and after more than 2 passes the apex will convex quickly. The first time I tried polishing the bevel on my Henckels knife with a 1 micron diamond loaded strop it was amazing how fast the bevel shortened up, as the apex disappeared.

The Matrix stones come dressed and ready to go. But you should play with them when you first get them using different pressures including too much pressure. The stones will not really reach their prime until they have been dressed a few times, at least the 650 through 4k, and then only after sharpening a few knives!!! After dressing they are abnormally aggressive and leave a more pronounced scratch pattern. Once you sharpen a bunch of knives you should get to the point that you only dress the finest stones every 50 or so knives, the 650 less than that, and the 250 and 80 maybe once every couple years. That is how I do it. If they get black from use it does not affect how well they work. If you don't like the cosmetics then clean them with a paper towel and rubbing alcohol. I have played with Comet, Ajax, and Barkeepers Friend but think that the abrasives affected how the stones worked so ended up dressing them. I have never had that happen when cleaning with alcohol, which I only do to show how it works, not for performance. I don't care what my stones look like, only how they are working. Keep in mind I only do edge trailing passes, if you do edge leading you will have to dress a lot more often, like 10 fold or more.

I have been thinking of adding to the first post in this thread of all relevant information I have about the Matrix stones so it is all in one spot. I will let you know in a post here once I do. It would be good to have one spot you can go for up to date info that is complete. A big kudos to this forum for allowing us to edit a post no matter how old it is.

 

[Glock Guy]

Awesome update, and thanks for posting the new video.

I forgot to ask this before, but do you use some kind of black coating on the sharpening table like Plasti dip?

 

[Diemaker]

Awesome update, and thanks for posting the new video.

I forgot to ask this before, but do you use some kind of black coating on the sharpening table like Plasti dip?

I use a .02" thick adhesive backed rubber.

 

[Mr.Wizard]

I use a .02" thick adhesive backed rubber.

That sounds more durable than the old painter's tape. Where do you get it?

 

[Diemaker]

McMaster-Carr. I tried Buna-N, EPDM, and Neoprene. They are different levels of stickiness from least to most in that order. I chose EPDM but I have some pretty strong magnets right under the rubber.

 

[Glock Guy]

Thanks for the info. Is this stuff prone to cracking over time, or is it pretty durable?

Also, have you ever noticed any scratches on the blade from the rubber holding any of the metal/swarf from previous knives, even after wiping the surface down?

It sounds like a way better, and longer lasting alternative to tape. I was just wondering if there were any negatives with it.

 

[Diemaker]

The rubber will last longer than the adhesive, which is starting to fail after 2 years now. 3m77 may work better but I haven't tried it in this application. This is something I might try when I replace my current rubber. Since the rubber is not hard you don't want a hard adhesive like epoxy. Most of my knives have scratches from the bare plastic from my Apex so it is hard for me to tell if the rubber is any different. You do not want the rubber if you move your knife while sharpening, it only works well with magnets and the Slide Guide, IMO.