Edge Pro Matrix resin bond diamond stones

[Baron Mind]

I would advise caution when discussing microchipping and it's prevention. I feel at a microscopic level, microchipping is a function of sharpening. Sharpening does not work how we picture in our minds, each abrasive particle neatly carving out a groove in the steel... At least at the apex, microchipping IS how apexes are shaped by stones. I don't have the time to dig up links, but I know there are 1 or 2 "scienceofsharp" blogs chronicling the matter. Conversely, edge trailing strokes were shown to create a "feather edge". That blog is only one data point, but it rings true.

 

[sai123]

Totally understand your point Baron Mind. If a bonded abrasive hit's the very apex it's going to chip out, hence moving up to finer stones makes sense to make the chips smaller and smaller. What confuses me is that you, Diemaker, observe that the chipping problems get more evident the finer the stones are. I would have expected the opposite.
Sounds like how a fresh diamond plate behaves until the diamonds have smoothed out a bit. Since the stone progression just comes down to making 10 strokes on the next finer stone, maybe they take forever to smooth out a bit and that's why more chipping is observed with the higher grit stones? Just some thoughts I'm throwing in.
Anyways I'll order some diamond matrix stones and do some testing. The whole package of you being open to discussion and ready to support your products and the flawless machining really make these a great buy for me.
I'll be getting the 250 and 1100 for sure. Not sure yet if the 650 is a must inbetween for me.

 

[Diemaker]

Baron Mind, no time for photos right now but as I said the micro-chipping I mention is based on MY experience. Sure there are some micro-chipping and micro-fractures that are a function of chip formation but neither are desirable and both are to be avoided as much as possible. This will have to wait till after Friday as I have a lot of fires to put out by then.

sai123, it only takes 1, maybe 2, knives for these stones to settle down after dressing. My current theory is very localized point loading is causing the micro-chipping. This is far more obvious with ceramic blades but since the chips look the same with steel that leads me to believe it is the same. When I get the time I will do a video about what I have learned playing with different ceramic knives and Maxamet too. I have my Maxamet kife chip out the edge with a strop once, it too is VERY sensitive to point loading.

Jumping from the 250 to the 950 was about the biggest I could reasonably go with my setup so trying to skip the 650 would be a mistake. These stones are designed to work as a set so only omit on the ends of the scale, not in the middle. Also, the 650 in a way is the most important stone as it is the first to refine the apex. If you only want to get two stones then I would suggest the 250 and 650. I think it is better to get the edge set right vs more refinement and if you ever let your knife get very dull then you will want the 250.

 

[David Richardson]

I have my Maxamet kife chip out the edge with a strop once, it too is VERY sensitive to point loading.

Holy crap! I love the edge Maxamet takes and the way it polishes. No issues with my Maxamet Native, but I'm not likely to buy more knives with this steel.

Looking forward to your micro-chipping info whenever you have the time.

 

[Runs with Knives]

Hello, first time posting here. I've got some questions! I bought the 250 stone recently and the quality is amazing, it cuts very well but I think I used too much pressure the first time using it taking out some nasty chips from a knife, quite a few little bits of diamonds were in the swarf unless that is normal for it? I know coated diamonds have a break in period but not exactly sure with bonded diamonds as this was my first experience with them.

The knife I'm sharpening has seen alot of use/abuse and the steel has gotten thick enough I need to back bevel it to keep the cutting edge from getting too wide, plus it still has many dings and chips in the edge even after quite a few passes with the 250 grit (although it did remove loads of damage in it's own right)

How does the 80 grit fair for reprofiling/back beveling? I'm wondering if this stone is worth the cost for someone in my situation who has to periodically grind a blade back in particular vs a 140 coated diamond plate which goes for far less $$. I ask because I have the Edge Pro Silicon Carbide stone and it doesn't seem to cut any better than the Matrix 250 stone. Right now I'm leaning towards picking up the 80 grit stone but I'm wary of how long it will last me and how best to keep the stone clean and flat.

Anyway on that note I skimmed through the first page of this thread (information overload for me O and I'm very curious about the maintenance of these stones. You talked about using Shapton glass stones to flatten/dress these, is that an acceptable substitute for the method Edge Pro recommends? I live out of a small apartment and would rather not deal with the hassle or mess of using water and Aluminum Oxide powder on glass. Plus I'd love to pick up a Glass stone or two anyway. If it's ok to use a Shapton glass stone instead what grit would you recommend? I'm planning on buying more of your diamond stones in the various grits both high and low so I'm unsure what could be a good universal method for maintaining them.

Thanks in advance for any info/help, super impressed so far with just the 250 grit stone.

 

[Diemaker]

Yep, too much pressure will mess up these stones fairly fast, and no there shouldn't be any diamonds in the swarf. It's an easy fix though with a quick 15 second-ish dressing and it will be good as new. Unfortunately, the only way to dress them is with loose abrasive on a hard flat surface, there really is no other way that works nearly as well. I have tried dressing them with alox stones and other than the initial tests with the Shapton glass stones it didn't work out at all. The SG stone did work on the finer Matrix stones, 2300 and 4k, to clean but that was all. You REALLY NEED the loose abrasive, the cutting action is totally different than a fixed abrasive, especially on big surfaces like a stone. For the 250 you want around a 60 grit abrasive. EP sells 60 grit silicon carbide powder for this but a similar grit, or a bit coarser, sand works just as well but doesn't last nearly as long. For the 80 you need at least a 36 grit SC or a very coarse sand and for the 650 and up use the 240 grit brown alox powder from EP, which is simply the best for these stones. Yes dressing them is a bit of a pain but once you get the hang of using these stones you should just about never dress the 80 or 250 and the others should only need to be dressed every 20-40ish knives so the mess doesn't happen very often.

There is a "break in" for these stones but it really takes just sharpening one knife. After dressing them they are extra aggressive which is interesting but they leave a coarser finish/ deeper scratches than once they are "broken in". This is more of an issue with the 650 and finer stones, not so much with the coarser ones.

The 250 isn't very good for real metal removal, it will work but you better have the patience of a monk, which is what pushed me to make the 80 grit stone, which is about 10 times faster. A good 140 grit brazed diamond plate may cut faster than the 80 but the 80 will last for many of those brazed plates, just the nature of the bond. Plated is the most aggressive bond, and resin is the least, especially the one I use, so it comes down to personal preferences. It is nice to be able to dress a stone when it's cutting slows down vs replacing it though. All of these stones wear very slowly, say .001" per 1000-2000 knives, so dishing isn't really an issue. They will need to be dressed to clean them up before they dish.

I have learned a lot about these stones since starting this thread so it would be best to start reading from the end to the start if you only want to read a few pages. Some of what I thought was good advice has been found to be not so good.

Oh, damn it's almost 11 so I need to get to work. I hope this answers your questions and thank you for your interest in these stones! And welcome to the forum!!!

 

[Steven W. Knight]

Hello, first time posting here. I've got some questions! I bought the 250 stone recently and the quality is amazing, it cuts very well but I think I used too much pressure the first time using it taking out some nasty chips from a knife, quite a few little bits of diamonds were in the swarf unless that is normal for it? I know coated diamonds have a break in period but not exactly sure with bonded diamonds as this was my first experience with them.

The knife I'm sharpening has seen alot of use/abuse and the steel has gotten thick enough I need to back bevel it to keep the cutting edge from getting too wide, plus it still has many dings and chips in the edge even after quite a few passes with the 250 grit (although it did remove loads of damage in it's own right)

How does the 80 grit fair for reprofiling/back beveling? I'm wondering if this stone is worth the cost for someone in my situation who has to periodically grind a blade back in particular vs a 140 coated diamond plate which goes for far less $$. I ask because I have the Edge Pro Silicon Carbide stone and it doesn't seem to cut any better than the Matrix 250 stone. Right now I'm leaning towards picking up the 80 grit stone but I'm wary of how long it will last me and how best to keep the stone clean and flat.

Anyway on that note I skimmed through the first page of this thread (information overload for me O and I'm very curious about the maintenance of these stones. You talked about using Shapton glass stones to flatten/dress these, is that an acceptable substitute for the method Edge Pro recommends? I live out of a small apartment and would rather not deal with the hassle or mess of using water and Aluminum Oxide powder on glass. Plus I'd love to pick up a Glass stone or two anyway. If it's ok to use a Shapton glass stone instead what grit would you recommend? I'm planning on buying more of your diamond stones in the various grits both high and low so I'm unsure what could be a good universal method for maintaining them.

Thanks in advance for any info/help, super impressed so far with just the 250 grit stone.

Saw your post and suggest this YOUTUBE:

It REALLY helped and confirmed my experiences in SPADES - after two years with the Diamond Matrix stones...

 

[Steven W. Knight]

A video review from TheApostleP. It's certainly positive overall, but he reports that the stones last "up to 150 knives" (14:00) which falls rather short of the "last a lifetime" expectation. I suspect that his cleaning these with Ajax and sandpaper isn't helping things. Can the loading he is experiencing be avoided?

He USES a LOT of PRESSURE.

1/4 POUND is not a lot of pressure:

 

[scottc3]

I have learned a lot about these stones since starting this thread so it would be best to start reading from the end to the start if you only want to read a few pages. Some of what I thought was good advice has been found to be not so good.

Thank you for sharing your processes! Useful and fascinating.

 

[Runs with Knives]

Yep, too much pressure will mess up these stones fairly fast, and no there shouldn't be any diamonds in the swarf. It's an easy fix though with a quick 15 second-ish dressing and it will be good as new. Unfortunately, the only way to dress them is with loose abrasive on a hard flat surface, there really is no other way that works nearly as well. I have tried dressing them with alox stones and other than the initial tests with the Shapton glass stones it didn't work out at all. The SG stone did work on the finer Matrix stones, 2300 and 4k, to clean but that was all. You REALLY NEED the loose abrasive, the cutting action is totally different than a fixed abrasive, especially on big surfaces like a stone. For the 250 you want around a 60 grit abrasive. EP sells 60 grit silicon carbide powder for this but a similar grit, or a bit coarser, sand works just as well but doesn't last nearly as long. For the 80 you need at least a 36 grit SC or a very coarse sand and for the 650 and up use the 240 grit brown alox powder from EP, which is simply the best for these stones. Yes dressing them is a bit of a pain but once you get the hang of using these stones you should just about never dress the 80 or 250 and the others should only need to be dressed every 20-40ish knives so the mess doesn't happen very often.

Good to know, I'll try and use the absolute minimum pressure next time. I found it cut very well with practically no pressure at all, but got overzealous due to the knife needing some serious chip removal + back beveling. Not keen with using water on glass but if that's the only option so be it.. Appreciate the info good sir.

There is a "break in" for these stones but it really takes just sharpening one knife. After dressing them they are extra aggressive which is interesting but they leave a coarser finish/ deeper scratches than once they are "broken in". This is more of an issue with the 650 and finer stones, not so much with the coarser ones.

Oh ok, I'll keep that in mind! Thanks.

The 250 isn't very good for real metal removal, it will work but you better have the patience of a monk, which is what pushed me to make the 80 grit stone, which is about 10 times faster. A good 140 grit brazed diamond plate may cut faster than the 80 but the 80 will last for many of those brazed plates, just the nature of the bond. Plated is the most aggressive bond, and resin is the least, especially the one I use, so it comes down to personal preferences. It is nice to be able to dress a stone when it's cutting slows down vs replacing it though. All of these stones wear very slowly, say .001" per 1000-2000 knives, so dishing isn't really an issue. They will need to be dressed to clean them up before they dish.

Awesome, I'll be ordering the 80 grit then soon and look forward to using it! Never liked coated diamonds so glad to hear the 80 will keep up with the best of them without the wear and tear.

I have learned a lot about these stones since starting this thread so it would be best to start reading from the end to the start if you only want to read a few pages. Some of what I thought was good advice has been found to be not so good.

Oh, damn it's almost 11 so I need to get to work. I hope this answers your questions and thank you for your interest in these stones! And welcome to the forum!!!

It does! and Thank you I look forward to getting my hands on the other grits. I'll take your advice and read the last several pages while I'm at it! Been busy lately with work myself or I would've replied sooner.

Saw your post and suggest this YOUTUBE:

It REALLY helped and confirmed my experiences in SPADES - after two years with the Diamond Matrix stones...

Thank you! I'll take a look at that video as well. ( P.S. That's a slick looking custom edge pro-esque rig. o_o)

 

[Diemaker]

Don't get scared of using some pressure, you just have to learn how much to use, and there is no "too little" pressure other than wasting your time. Not saying the 80 will keep up with the best of the coarse plated diamonds but it's no slouch. I get a bunch of tools vacuum brazed with coarse diamond and this bond by far is the most aggressive, bar none!

 

[Runs with Knives]

Copy that, The knife I need it for sees alot of hard use all the time from the family and has been through the ringer so definitely picking up your 80 grit stone over a traditional plate for the better longevity and feel they have. Thanks again for the info, I'll get the pressure dialed in next chance I get to do some more sharpening/back beveling.

 

[Gritomatic]

So true. The pressure is counter-intuitive. The intuition says "To save time, apply more pressure". But the effect is the opposite - abrasive performance goes down. The intuition asks "why???". Shut up and learn, intuition. When abrasive grains slightly touch the surface of the metal, abrasive works. When abrasive grains are immersed deep under pressure, abrasive does not

Manufacturing Processes 2: Grinding, Honing, Lapping
By: Fritz Klocke (Author) and A. Kuchle (Translator)
Publisher: Springer
ISBN: 354092258X

 

[Steven W. Knight]

What kind of glass is recommended for flattening the diamond matrix stones. I’ve got the 240 grit aluminum oxide but not sure if I need float glass or plate glass or?
Also should I flatten the diamond matrix stones before the first use?

I’ve got the complete set coming and I’m really looking forward to using them on the tsprof ko3.
Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. Lots of great info here.

Any piece of glass - you have to have a flat ONE!

 

[RipD]

I would advise caution when discussing microchipping and it's prevention. I feel at a microscopic level, microchipping is a function of sharpening. Sharpening does not work how we picture in our minds, each abrasive particle neatly carving out a groove in the steel... At least at the apex, microchipping IS how apexes are shaped by stones. I don't have the time to dig up links, but I know there are 1 or 2 "scienceofsharp" blogs chronicling the matter. Conversely, edge trailing strokes were shown to create a "feather edge". That blog is only one data point, but it rings true.

I have a few years of metal working experience. It makes perfect sense that edge trailing would leave a feather edge and edge leading would not. This is one of those things that seems correct and that experience taught me: away from the abrasive leaves a burr, into the abrasive does not. However... this is not my experience when sharpening knives. My edges just aren't as good with edge leading strokes. I don't know why. And looking at some masterful sharpeners, like BBB, he always does edge trailing after he gets off the coarse stones.

 

[Gritomatic]

My five cents.

 

[David Richardson]

Nice pics. Do you have any details for what stones were used before those pics were taken? I'm curious if we see that much difference with a stone 20 microns or below. If it was a course stone or surface mount diamonds, I'm not too surprised.

I have better experience with edge trailing. I get that it doesn't make sense logically. It terms of how easily an edge will cut phone book paper, edge trailing wins for me. I don't recall if I get better sharpness retention with either. If I can find a consistent cutting material I will try to compare sharpness and edge retention with both on the same knife. As mentioned above, some of the best sharpeners are using edge trailing for their final stones. There must be a reason for it.

 

[Diemaker]

What stone, what steel and how hard, when did you do this? And what is the white stuff? That is totally opposite of my experiences and far more drastic of a difference.

 

[Steven W. Knight]

Go back a few years and I was a happy EDGE PRO “knife sharpener.”

I had my double set of Edge Pro stones, my set of Chosera stones, my OLD Chef Pro Diamond
stones on the low end 120 to 400, and a couple of emergency sets of stones from “Heaven Forbid” China.

I even had a few Spyderco current sharpeners with a few C-Clamps to hold them in place with two hands to sharpen the 400 range of softer steels. BTW yesterday sharpened my Phillips Norelco tri-head blades on the Spyderco. Plus the potato peelers for Thanksgiving - LOL.

I had my grit count on each stone and a couple of cross reference charts to actually polish my edge better than the FACTORIES could send them out. I had bought a 50 some inch of 2" thick tanned Buffallo Leather belt and cut it into “STROPS” for my blank Edge pros with 3M spray adhesive in the can. I had it made by grit mathematically and was organized.

THEN CAME the SET of DIAMOND MATRIX stones.

SINCE THEN - I have not touched my EP stones, my Chosera stones, my old Diamond stones - just my DIAMOND MATRIX stones.

1- I figured out edge trailing
2- Water with very light Windex for color
3- 95% Alcohol & paper towels (I like easy)
4- did not remove any burr
5- really light pressure
6- few strokes (recently learned ten from the Champ!)
7- polish stropping with my Buffalo tanned Edge Pro set-up

I have lots of steels. But my main EDC are Manix 2 XL CPM - M4
and Manix 2 - CPM- S110V - I have 6 Manixs - wish they had Bench Made
Axis locks - and wish Bench Made had Spyderco’s heat treatments.

So now I look at the knife and decide if it is too soft for Diamond Matrix.
I strop it first at 20 degrees. I am not fancy because if I keep 95% at 20 degrees each side -
it is still sharper than I need.

I like things organized, simple, and fun....

My other hobby is stropping my straight RAZORS! My knives almost match.

 

[Blues]

So...you're saying you like them?