F ball bearings! OK, maybe not so much now, opinion changing

If bearings were a fad, they would have been phased out a long time ago.

For me, when done right, have not had a problem and I clean mine the same as my slipjoints and any other knife with no problem.

[video=youtube;c_ha2jwSfQE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_ha2jwSfQE[/video]
 
Yep! ^ And, anyone can do it. :D
I like the Strider-method; douse the folder in WD-40 and shake it clean, wipe it off. Anyone can do it. :D
Thanks for the vdo.
rolf
 
I subscribe to the K.I.S.S. principal when I can, if it wasn't for the knife laws in my area, I wouldn't own a folder at all. Having said that, I do think the ball bearing flippers have their place when you consider those that rely on opening a folder with only gross motor skills.
 
I should say that I like bearing flippers. My Southard Tolk is silky smooth and fun. This is the only knife I own and have never disassembled, since the fit seems very tight. I have cleaned it with warm soapy water or degreaser, and it stays smooth no problem with a little bit of Blue Lube.


Miso
 
Aldebaran said:
Full disclosure: I have not owned a ball bearing pivot knife and never will. I have extensive experience as a heavy industrial mechanic, and mechanical engineer position, and scientific instrument design engineer, automotive and motorcycle mechanic, and machinist. I have camped in the forest and the desert. Dirt is everywhere.

A foundry is probably one of the worst industrial environments you could ask unprotected ball bearings to survive. So you just need to blow some compressed air through the knife and squirt some special oil into to pivot. Do you have access to a compressor and oil in the middle of the desert? How about just after gutting a fish for the fire by the stream? Should you need to clean and lubricate all the time? My washer pivot knives never have had grit get into the bearing surface causing it to stick.

It is simple. A ball bearing system costs much more to implement than just a couple of washers. Washers need a drop of oil and off you go. I don't always have a compressor with me wherever I go. In high load low speed applications, plain bearings (washers) are highly preferred over ball bearings. It is an engineering principle.
Click to expand...

You see, your thought process is flawed because you have never even owned a BB knife. If you've never owned a BB knife how can you bitch about it? I use my 0562 to cut open bags of lime, bentonite, green foundry sand and all kinds of other abrasive consumables. Sand is probably the worst abrasive material you can get into your blade pivot, but I've never had a problem. Even washer knives can be vulnerable to sand in the desert. If you're going into the desert, I'd suggest a fixed blade. When I say blow it out with compressed air, that's only when it needs it, not every single day.

I can understand if your BB knife has suffered poor action from dirty environments, bu complaining about BB knives without ever owning one yourself is just plain silly.
 
Aldebaran said:
I elaborated why I don't like ball bearing knives. I started this thread to start a conversation and yes I was intentionally being provocative. But seriously, almost all the new knives I like, and most of the old ones, have ball bearings.
Click to expand...

If you are intentionally provocative you will indeed provoke people and get the type of "discussion" that has transpired so far. For a more rational discourse, sans sarcasm and insults, a more tempered OP would be in order. It's hard to say what it is you were looking for anyway--advice, sympathy, support, agreement? If you come on like gang-busters you're likely to get ganged up on.


Aldebaran said:
OK, if I buy a ZT0562CF and don't like it, will you buy it from me?
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Well he might, if he doesn't already have one or want another, but you can't sell it here as your membership level won't allow it. Of course, if you ponied up a few bucks and supported this site then you actually could.

Sorry, that was sarcastic, but lots of guys try knives, don't like 'em, sell 'em and move on. Part of the hobby and collecting is throwing a bunch of knives at the wall and seeing which ones stick in (sharp, pointy thing paraphrase).

Aldebaran said:
Zero Tolerance ZT0562, ZT0560, ZT0450/2, ZT0220, ZT080x series, Stedemon D01, Steel Will Cutjack G10, Spyderco Bradley Advocate, Spyderco Domino, are some examples.
Click to expand...

So yeah, flippers it is, then. There are plenty here who would tell you that flippers are a market-trend, just as you assert ball-bearing pivots are. So we have one trend that you like and another that you don't. They are two trends that that are pretty much woven together along with BB flippers being largely ti frame-locks with steel lock-bar inserts. Some of those features I like, some I'm neutral one, and some I don't care for.

Funny, most every time I say I'll never like some feature or another, I end up trying some knife and finding out it's either not so bad or, hey, I really like this and end up with a bunch more. I didn't think I'd like frame locks--got a bunch now; knives with different sided handles?--lots of them now; flippers are toy knives, right?-- got quite a few; I'd moved on from liner-locks, but have bought a bunch lately. Lots of brands or styles I wasn't interested in end up in my pocket. I thought I'd never spend more than a hundred, than two, than three, than five, than??--well so much for that.

There are craploads of knives with different features out there that you'll never know you like or not if you don't try 'em. You won't find out by digging your heels in or starting threads that inevitably end up as contentious pissing contests.
 
I've read most of the first page and stopped there. While the OP has a moderately valid view point on ball bearings, the viewpoint isn't 100% accurate, nor does it pertain to everyone. If you always hard use your knives, and/or use them quite often where material can get into the pivot, then just don't buy a knife with bearings, simple. But there are a lot of folk out there (myself included) where their EDC doesn't require such tasks, and their tasks more or less are based on package opening, mail opening, food package opening, cutting off rogue threads, etc. etc. etc., and in such tasks, ball bearings will have zero issue, albeit if it's not a flawed design (looking at you Spyderco Advocate). There is a satisfaction that comes when you can very easily pull out and open a knife one handed without looking, knowing full well that the blade will engage every time without any effort <insert 1000 comments about how easy it is to flick open a washer'd knife>, kind of like there is satisfaction from thwacking open a large cold steel knife, i.e. recon 1, and hearing the triad lock snap into place with authority, or the satisfaction of a sebenza elegantly clicking into place. For me, I feel the same way about Benchmade, in that I like (well I liked, I hate everything they have made this year) a lot of the knives that they produce, but I cannot stand the AXIS lock. There are plenty of awesome knives that come on washers, basically all non-taiwan Spyderco's, Cold Steel, Chris Reeve, Ontario, Southern Grind, Benchmade, Hinderer, and so on and so forth. Everyone has different tastes and needs for knives, so to basically rule out everyone else due to your own reasoning and needs is a little narcissistic.
 
I know that bearings are used for bikes and cars and am sure that they run in environments all dusty and gritty. How can they perform without an issue? Because they are well shielded? If so, I would wonder if we can have a sealed pivot with bearings.


Miso
 
disgruntled_old_man said:
Why back in my day we used the guts of animals killed in the hunt as washers for our folding knives, and we LIKED IT!!!
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864df406836ff04caafcf00df19de0c1.jpg


Ernest Emerson said:
I am proud to announce another evolution in the life of the Emerson CQC-7, the Emerson CQC-7BW Flipper aka the Flipper 7. This may just be the ultimate evolution of the tactical folding knife. This knife is the epitome of the 21st century tactical folder. It now features S35VN steel, GTC stainless 440C bearings and they are now equipped with the flipper opening technology. Believe me, this is still an Emerson CQC-7 but it’s like comparing a 1960’s era F4 Phantom jet to a F22 Raptor Stealth Fighter. There’s just no going back. With the flipper opening system, the Emerson “wave” and the thumb disc this knife could be called the first “triple play” tactical folding knife. And in a high stress tactical or emergency situation this knife gives you three options to bring it into action. It is by far the slickest, fastest, and hardest knife you will ever own. I guarantee it.
Click to expand...

http://emersonknives.com/shop/knives/cqc-7-the-knives/cqc-7bw-flipper/

So, a man who makes "the standard by which all other tactical knives are judged" is now suggesting that ball bearings are a HUGE step FORWARD in design and functionality.

All good. If you used PB or teflon bearings back in your day, and that's the way you like it, then proceed, sir. There are a lot of options that implement washers on the pivot.

Good thing today is that as knife lovers we have so many options, so many great knives and designs from which to choose, that it is truly a golden era in my opinion.

Too bad the best thing we can figure out to do is argue about what we should like on the internet.

Just go cut something already.....

best

mqqn
 
I don't think bearings are necessary in knives. However, I have a few and like them. If they had bronze washers instead I'd probably like them just the same.
 
At least for KAI and KVT, I'm pretty sure bearings are slated as improving the reliability of opening much like their Speedsafe. That's the way I've interpreted it from their ad copy.

I like bearings and I like washers. I like washers more :D
 
brandoak said:
Ahhhhhhh....your learning a valuable lesson about this forum Daniel Son, there are certain trigger words that set some off
into an emotional tantrum defending there purchases until you either cave, concede or bow to there post count as a measure
of intellect and wisdom of all things cutlery.
Its all rainbows and unicorns here. Having anything negative to say is greatly frowned
upon, no matter how true, no matter the proof, and your education null and void.
One does not simply come here and mutter the words... Bearing knives S^%$@!,
Microtech OTF's are unreliable,
This China produced knife is great! or "Hey look at my new Strider" without dire consequence and ridicule.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

And sometimes that ridicule is because the person has demonstrated quite a few times that they lack a certain amount of understanding of the subject at hand. Yet they simply know it loudly. ;)

brandoak said:
Dumest idea sense snake mittens.....

They rust....but the census here will call it........ "Self oxidizing lubrication" ummm sure until theirs nothing but powder and a Teflon cage left.... ooooh...Teflon washers smooth!...
Hard ball bearings on softer titanium will gall/dent.... but the census here will call it........"work hardening" SMH...
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My point exactly.
 
I've used both washer and ball bearing supported knives and I've never found an issue with either. Fiberglass, ceramic felt, dirt, etc never gave me an issue that I noticed when deploying either one. All ZT's too so take that for whatever it's worth.

Enjoy what you enjoy, ignore what you want. At the end of the day, as long as you're cool with your choices then whatevs.
 
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The pic of the 0562 was my knife. Its since been gifted to a friend in the service. When I had it I chopped, pried and generally beat the shit out of it (no batoning though :)). I wanted to see how well KVT and bearings in general held up. That knife remained ROCK solid, centered, and supremely smooth. One of the best knives I've owned. Flipped a zillion times. Grit in the pivot was easy to get out, blow it out with air or water. The only flaw was the lock bar could be pushed all the way over, thats why I gave it to my buddy. Bothered me but doesn't bother him.
 
mqqn said:
Good thing today is that as knife lovers we have so many options, so many great knives and designs from which to choose, that it is truly a golden era in my opinion.

Too bad the best thing we can figure out to do is argue about what we should like on the internet.

Just go cut something already.....

best

mqqn
Click to expand...

My bolding above. Way more choices now than ever. Better to find something you like than to rant about what you can't have. Hell, I wish all the knives I like were way cheaper. ;) Not happenin'....
 
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Nobody with an ounce of common sense in their brain can deny that ball bearings are a structural downgrade. I said structural, not "functional"

Just look at the pics posted earlier, the bearings eat tracks into the titanium, it's just a fact. Sure, it wont do that if all you do is sit at your computer on bladeforums.com or the couch flipping your knife, but use it hard enough and long enough - and it will. I'm speaking from first hand experience, i had ZT's on bearings that did it and i sold them all off, won't ever buy a bearing knife again.

Knives can be made just as smooth with bronze washers, it's just easier to ensure smoothness and easier to join the marketing band wagon with bearings these days. There's a lot of youngsters out there that want knife bling and the newest features, even if they don't fully understand the long term structural integrity concept.
 
Dumest idea sense snake mittens.....

They rust....but the census here will call it........ "Self oxidizing lubrication" ummm sure until theirs nothing but powder and a Teflon cage left.... ooooh...Teflon washers smooth!...
Hard ball bearings on softer titanium will gall/dent.... but the census here will call it........"work hardening" SMH...
Click to expand...

I think that these are legitimate concerns, but it is worth noting that not all bearing systems are equal.

Ceramic bearings will not rust and are very unlikely to suffer any sign significant plastic deformation over time. Many manufacturers are also using hardened steel races as a contact interface between bearings and the titanium on handles in order to significantly reduce galling. Some manufacturers, such as Shirogorov, sometimes use multi-row bearings which would likely spread out the pressure among more bearings and more paths of travel, reducing wear. From what I have seen, larger bearings also increase the contact area and reduce wear. Finally, roller thrust bearing such as used by RJ Martin have large contact areas and could have a similar effect.

That being said, I think that bearings are fun but not essential. Some of the best flippers I have ever looked include the custom flippers of Patrick McGuiness, and they are on washers. I respect it when a maker is able to make a good flipper on washers, because I think it is harder to pull off.

Washers may have the edge in situations involving extended periods without extending cleaning, but a well implement knife with a bearing system is a lot of fun. I think bearings are here to stay for the time being, but there is room for variety in the market.
 
Since they began using caged bearings my complaints about bearings have largely dissapeared. Taking apart knives with the original IKBS system was a freaking nightmare, tiny tiny BBs on some ofnthose knives.

Now I think alot of makers use bearings even though they aren't necessary. A well made folder on PB or even Teflon washers flips open just fine Imho. That isn't to say BB washers don't flip better, just I don't need the blade to be that loose.

I have heard horror stories about BBs wearing tracks in the Titanium scales they run along because the BBs are considerably harder than the Ti surface. I have even seen pictures of it. However it has never been a problem for me.

Lastly sometimes companies just get it wrong, like the Spyderco Advocate. It has a defect in its bearing system.

Sometimes BBs can be fun, I definately think no one would argue that washers are more practical and robust. I like BBs but LOVE a well tuned knife on washers. As in my Sebenza is ultra smooth without needing to fly open like a Bb pivot. Don't they have websites where you can order PB washers that will fit your knives to replace the BBs with?
 
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