Fading popularity of traditional knives

Since I work with my hands a lot, it's nice to have a Cadet with the nail file, along with the caplifter. Since I almost always have another knife or two on me besides the Cadet, I hardly ever use the spear blade on it, but being stainless, I do use it for "wetwork."
 
Relative to the actual thread topic, I do notice for myself that I tend to carry a SAK and a modern usually. Have a little stag Case Peanut in my watch pocket too. I really like traditional slip joints..... but I don't use them heavily. I buy them and seldom use them. Maybe, I'll move back to carrying them with the SAK or drop the sak as I have a Leatherman Ps4 Squirt on each car key ring.... ? Don't know. But the point I'm making is that I don't use them heavily and I'm not a collector, so at some point unless my habits change, I'm likely to stop buying them. For that matter, that generalization could apply to just about all knives other than my regular carry sak..... when do you put the brakes on? But right now, I'm actually carrying more knives than I ever did.

This is one of the reasons I have not been pre-ordering GEC knives and so forth. If I don't get one that appeals to me, there will be another down the road that likely will also.
 
Obsessed with Edges said:
Case has stated on their own forum (from the company historian, with input from their engineering staff), their CV is actually what they call a 'modified 1095' hardened 'a couple points' higher than their Tru-Sharp stainless (420HC). Being that their Tru-Sharp is ordinarily advertised around ~ 56 - 57 HRC, that would put their CV up around ~ 58 - 59 HRC.
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I did not realize when I posted that information it would cause an issue.
According to Crucible it is a modified 1086 or 1086cv. It appears that once upon a time Case used 1095 and ran it extremely soft. Then around 2000 they used a lower grade steel (1086) and hardened it more but still very soft. From the posts I seen on sharpening CV there seems to be a consensus to not apply to much pressure or you'll roll the bevel.
If you like CV then it's good steel.

"Case CV(Crucible) - As some other proprietary names, Case Chrome Vanadium(or Case CV) is just the name for any given alloy used currently in Case knives. Similar story with Cold Steel Carbon V. Unfortunately, they don't exactly announce when the steel changes. Until late 90s, or perhaps even mid 2000 Case CV was based on AISI 1095 carbon steel, and later on, it has been changed to AISI 1086 steel, with trace amounts of Vanadium and Chromium. According to knifemaker Don Hanson III's tests it's 0.50% Chromium and ~0.20% Vanadium. Not nearly enough to affect wear resistance or rust resistance, but will help with grain refinement. Overall, those two alloys (1086 and 1095) are quite close and heat treatment of the steel is much more important than the difference in composition. Older Case knives were about 5-10 RC points softer compared to current line, which isn't hard by any standards either - 55HRC or so."
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22-rimfire said:
So where to Vic SAKs fit into this pattern or observation?
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Depends on where you're from. :) A SAK isn't really all that different from my old cub scout knife from the 1960s. And scout knives from much earlier. Does anyone know offhand how old the scout pattern might be?
 
Dean51 said:
I did not realize when I posted that information it would cause an issue.
According to Crucible it is a modified 1086 or 1086cv. It appears that once upon a time Case used 1095 and ran it extremely soft. Then around 2000 they used a lower grade steel (1086) and hardened it more but still very soft. From the posts I seen on sharpening CV there seems to be a consensus to not apply to much pressure or you'll roll the bevel.
If you like CV then it's good steel.

"Case CV(Crucible) - As some other proprietary names, Case Chrome Vanadium(or Case CV) is just the name for any given alloy used currently in Case knives. Similar story with Cold Steel Carbon V. Unfortunately, they don't exactly announce when the steel changes. Until late 90s, or perhaps even mid 2000 Case CV was based on AISI 1095 carbon steel, and later on, it has been changed to AISI 1086 steel, with trace amounts of Vanadium and Chromium. According to knifemaker Don Hanson III's tests it's 0.50% Chromium and ~0.20% Vanadium. Not nearly enough to affect wear resistance or rust resistance, but will help with grain refinement. Overall, those two alloys (1086 and 1095) are quite close and heat treatment of the steel is much more important than the difference in composition. Older Case knives were about 5-10 RC points softer compared to current line, which isn't hard by any standards either - 55HRC or so."
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The info on Case's own forum (from 2 or 3 posts by their historian, dated between 2005 - 2013) is pretty clear, especially when coming from their own staff. It doesn't support what other assumptions claim, about it being 1086, or about it being that soft.

The notion that CV is 'soft' (i.e., bevel rolling if applying slightly heavier pressure) is vague at best. Having used & sharpened it myself, it behaves very similarly to Schrade's 1095 (in their older USA blades), in how it takes a keen edge and holds it; these are two of the easiest-responding steels I've seen, to sharpening to a keen edge. CV doesn't 'roll' nearly that easily, in sharpening or in normal uses. Burrs are minimal in sharpening and easy to clean up, another strong sign it's not too 'soft'. I've noticed on new blades fresh from the factory, there could be an issue with some heat-damaged, weakened steel near the apex, which clears up with a couple or three resharpenings, when that steel is removed. I've also noticed the same with Case's Tru-Sharp blades, which become more stable in edge-holding after some resharpening.

It may be that Case's CV/carbon blades from earlier eras might've been different. I have an old 1965-vintage folding hunter from them in carbon steel that seems softer (easier grinding) on the stones, but still holds an edge quite well in use. I'd expect some evolution or improvement in specs over the span of time Case has been in business. But there's nothing vague about what they'd specified for it, in the post-2000 era, on their own forum. One has to be a member in their Collector's Club to access their forum site (I am), but it's there for the finding, if one's willing to sign up and pay for the membership.
 
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That's part of the problem my experience with Case was from earlier era, how does the saying go. Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me.
I can only go from the published data by zknives which has been a reputable source. Case still advertises CV as CV they won't say what CV is or what it is treated to. If there was a change Case hasn't said. I learned my lesson from Case and have a hard fast rule, If a manufacturer doesn't publish steel and heat treat. Then to me it's a no name steel. CV is not a steel.
The day Case post the steels identity and heat treat on their site and it is indeed 1095cv at 58 - 59, that will be the day I buy a case. My way of eating crow.
No I won't pay for access to the Collector's Club, Case needs to post the info with their public specifications.
 
Case's steel was never an issue for me. It was always their snap, fit & finish that bugged me. When I buy a Case slip joint, I expect the steel to be a little soft and hence easy to sharpen much like the Vic SAKs.
 
I can remember 15 years ago when there was a big stir when Queen came out with their 1095 line. I have several of them. Turned out to be the forerunners of Great Eastern. We were begging for the old steel then.... Sigh.

I love 1095 myself. Same for 440C. I have D2 and it is decent. Prefer 440C over it. Over anything really.

One thing I think needs mentioned. Does anyone think it is mere coincidence that GEC has run after run after run of 1 (sometimes 2 blade) "trappers" that resemble modern folders?

I have no interest in them... Have no problem that no one cares if I do. :p

Will
 
I can't understand the trapper's popularity. If they made more with a wharncliffe instead of a spey I'd consider it but most are made with the redundant spey and clip combo.
 
Well I dont know the exact specs on Case CV steel. I just know that I have never had a problem with CV. Ive used it for years, working on a farm mostly, and its good steel. CV is tough, easy to sharpen and keeps a good edge through hard work.

My dad carries a Case CV Texas Jack in amber bone all the time. Its sharpened down to almost a straight edge on the main blade and has a cracked bone cover on one side. He wont send it back to Case though, he says his jack knife is "personalized" just how he likes and he doesnt want a new one. Hes a farmer and he likes CV steel too because its reliable.

So I dont care about its stats, I have gotten good service from CV steel, as have people I trust. As far as Tru sharp, its ok. I like it in smaller gentleman type knives especially, because it always looks good. It holds a decent edge but its not that great in my experience. I prefer Bucks stainless steel.

Also, I use a Case CV trapper a lot during trapping season, and I always have good results. Its good stuff.
 
Stelth said:
I can't understand the trapper's popularity. If they made more with a wharncliffe instead of a spey I'd consider it but most are made with the redundant spey and clip combo.
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Whats so bad about that? It gives you one pointy blade and one rounded blade for versatility. Id say that a pointy wharncliffe would be more redundant actually. Spey and clip has been working in trappers for a long time now, why change it up? :)
 
22-rimfire said:
Case's steel was never an issue for me. It was always their snap, fit & finish that bugged me. When I buy a Case slip joint, I expect the steel to be a little soft and hence easy to sharpen much like the Vic SAKs.
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Yeah, it's nice on a SAK that you can go from dull dull to shaving sharp in less than a minute. Literally five strokes each on medium and fine. But once you're set up to sharpen, the difference between that and two or three minutes for something like M390 gets lost in the mix. I get annoyed when a knife gets dull again in the middle of a job. At least SAK blades are ground nice and thin and cut OK even when dull. Even so, fast dulling is one reason I quit carrying SAKs. The 1095 from GEC is OK, although I'd like to not have to touch it up quite so often. It's in the SAK class for easy to sharpen and maybe holds an edge a bit longer. If I didn't know what I was missing, I'd be happier. Somebody compared knives to cars and that was spot on. The new muscle cars are leagues better in every way than their cousins from the 60s. There's no reason a traditional knife has to use technology from the 1960s any more than a car does. Traditional style says it all. Style is not materials. It's not construction methods. It's not how hard or soft the blade might be. It's the look and feel of the knife.

IMO, Case is chasing the low end of the market. Cheap knives made from cheap, easy to work materials. The problem is that the Chinese own that market. They make knives every bit as good for a fraction of the price. What happens if the Chinese up their game and start offering even better knives at that same low price point? I'm thinking specifically of better quality steel. 8Cr13MoV can be quite good and it's a bread and butter steel in China. The more the value proposition changes, the more customers will jump ship. I think the move Case is trying to make into modern knives is telling. Case may be in trouble. They're selling 1967 Camaros in today's world. That's a tough row to hoe.
 
gaj999 said:
Yeah, it's nice on a SAK that you can go from dull dull to shaving sharp in less than a minute. Literally five strokes each on medium and fine. But once you're set up to sharpen, the difference between that and two or three minutes for something like M390 gets lost in the mix. I get annoyed when a knife gets dull again in the middle of a job. At least SAK blades are ground nice and thin and cut OK even when dull. Even so, fast dulling is one reason I quit carrying SAKs. The 1095 from GEC is OK, although I'd like to not have to touch it up quite so often. It's in the SAK class for easy to sharpen and maybe holds an edge a bit longer. If I didn't know what I was missing, I'd be happier. Somebody compared knives to cars and that was spot on. The new muscle cars are leagues better in every way than their cousins from the 60s. There's no reason a traditional knife has to use technology from the 1960s any more than a car does. Traditional style says it all. Style is not materials. It's not construction methods. It's not how hard or soft the blade might be. It's the look and feel of the knife.

IMO, Case is chasing the low end of the market. Cheap knives made from cheap, easy to work materials. The problem is that the Chinese own that market. They make knives every bit as good for a fraction of the price. What happens if the Chinese up their game and start offering even better knives at that same low price point? I'm thinking specifically of better quality steel. 8Cr13MoV can be quite good and it's a bread and butter steel in China. The more the value proposition changes, the more customers will jump ship. I think the move Case is trying to make into modern knives is telling. Case may be in trouble. They're selling 1967 Camaros in today's world. That's a tough row to hoe.
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I don't care what the Chinese do, I'll never buy their knives. Will gladly pay three or four times the price for a Case even if the Chinese knives are allegedly of the same quality. And I would LOVE to have a 1967 Camaro, or a 1968 Mustang.
 
22-rimfire said:
Case's steel was never an issue for me. It was always their snap, fit & finish that bugged me. When I buy a Case slip joint, I expect the steel to be a little soft and hence easy to sharpen much like the Vic SAKs.
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Same here. I actually like their steel, but can't settle for poor snap, weak pulls and overall lazy craftsmanship.
The last Case I bought turned out to be quite nice and is now one of my favorite knives, but after being burned with too many lemons and by their warranty department I'll never purchase another knife from them.
 
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